Who is the church dedicated to in Final Fantasy VII?

[Raphael78x]

So Aeris' church in FFIIV. I've often wodnered, just what religion or deity is it a place of worship for?
Or is it a shrine to ancestors? Is it for burial of the dead? It doens't have a graveyard and in fact the only graveyard
I can remember in the game is well, the train graveyard.

But aside from this being some kind of nit-picky lore question, I'm not so interested in these kinds of "plot-holes"
in world building.

Instead I'll provide why I think it's there myself. First, I think it's job is to form connections with the player,
and fill in that feeling of nostalgia and childhood the game seems to evoke. Playgrounds, little bars,
churches etc etc. These aren't really placed in the world to make it more realistic in IIV, but to make it more homely
and relatable. Its also obviously there to give certain connotations to Areis character and Cloud's arc. Fallen hero,
flower-beds, softness and rest after an act of violence so on and so on.

I don't think the point of the church is to be much more than function in the story as a device to bring up certain feelings.
I really enjoy this approach to writing. It's important not to get too bogged down in the logcial consistencey of a world sometimes
at the expense of feelings and atmosphere.

I would make a comparison with Star Wars. When Darth Vader says "I have altered the deal" to Lando, he says "pray I do not alter it further".
You may wonder who exactly Vader is suggesting Lando pray to?

But I think it's mainly in that scene for effect. It does not suggest some deeper lore although their COULD be some.
Instead it's like them saying God speed because that phrase evokes a certain feeling in the viewer. Vader is not saying:
"pray to the force or a deity", yet the verbiage can come from little else. But the use of the word is mainly functional
in getting an effect or tone across not lore.

I think the early Final Fantasy games have a lot of this kind of element in the writing. Though I can't think of lots off the top of
my head.

But that's my answer, I believe the church is for "you the player". It doesn't have a particular lore reason, and although it
could be lost in translation too, as in it could just be a spiritual place or building in FFIIV, it certainly FEELS like
a religious church.

What do you think it's purpose is?

 

[ForceStealer]

In the OG there was an implication that the general public didn't really know about the Lifestream. ("I asked if she meant a star in the sky," etc.) In that case they could be worshipping any number of deities. But in the remake it's pretty clear that everyone knows exactly what it is, so yeah I'm not sure what they have to pray to unless they're Genesis?

Of course praying to ancestors is pretty consistent with both the Lifestream and Japanese religious practice, though they don't call such places "churches."

 

[Ryushikaze]

It could be a church to Minerva, the goddess talked about in Crisis Core. Or any of the other old deities we now consider summons.

 

[looneymoon]

there needs to be Jesus summon materia

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

It'd be hilarious if this church full of flowers is the ruin of some Lovecraft-lite cult that chanted nightly under the moon to call forth Chaos to shred their enemies, who just gave up when the plate was built and they couldn't see the moon anymore

 

[Raphael78x]

It'd be hilarious if this church full of flowers is the ruin of some Lovecraft-lite cult that chanted nightly under the moon to call forth Chaos to shred their enemies, who just gave up when the plate was built and they couldn't see the moon anymore

Jack Garland shows up: "I'm here to kill chaos, oh and by the way, what the hell is that %$"&* pizza thing?!"

 

[looneymoon]

I can't help but misread "Jack Garland" as "Judy Garland" and every time I think, "I know right good for her"

 

[Ryushikaze]

I can't help but misread "Jack Garland" as "Judy Garland" and every time I think, "I know right good for her"

They got Jack to fight Chaos when Judy wouldn't return their calls.

 

[Lex]

God:

“I’ve heard that there’s a church in the Sector 5 Slums. In the past, people gathered here and prayed to God, but nobody comes here anymore. I’ve been thinking that we should hide here a little…”

“I’ve heard about God! Does he really exist?” Aerith was surprised.

“According to his believers, he does. I heard that when they pray, they get empowered.”

“Pray…?”

“It’s something like us Cetra speaking to the planet, although I don’t really understand it. But, since no one is coming to the church anymore, there probably aren’t any believers. It’s too bad for God, but it seems like it’s great for our situation.”

That's from Traces of Two Pasts

 

[Raphael78x]

God:



That's from Traces of Two Pasts

Well that's very interesting. It seems in Remake at least, the answer has been answered a little more, although I'd argue it opens more questions. It makes it seem like there was, in however small a capacity, a mono-theistic religion in either the world of Final Fantasy IIV remake or just in Midgar; and Aeris at least has heard of God.

I mean... thinking more on it, Genesis will refer often to the gift of the Goddess and it's not like anyone bats an eyelid so it's not like deities being mentioned makes no sense. But at the same time, nothing about the world we've seen really suggests there is anything or has been anything like say Yevon worship. No-one even seems against religious worship. It's just a non-factor.

I could speculate a reason why here too. The dominance of a company like Shinra to having absolute power would be able to keep things from the public and even over time eradicate history. Most ordinary people in that world seem to have very little idea of what's happened in their worlds history. A town with an incident like Nibbelheim can just be rebuilt and replaced with the settlers having no knowledge of the fire they will share. Maybe people elsewhere in the game could potentially be these kind of actors. We wouldn't know really. Like the entire town of Kaim could theoretically be just like Nibbleheim. If there was some worship of God, Shinra probably wouldn't allow it to go on. They also probably would see it as supersticous and if at some point there had been any kind of that belief, they Shinra, would have seen it refuted by their study of mako, the lifestream, Jenova etc. It would be I suppose, as if the United States Government were expected to believe in God creating the Earth a certain way, then learning of extra terrestrials who had been intimately involved with the history of the planet. They're probably going to lean closer to science.

I wasn't really interested in the lore consequences of the church, but when I think about it it is interesting, but that context from the novel really makes you think.

I would not have made the choice to clarify it at all in the remake if I was writing the game or books. It's strange to me, as if Aeris is saying "I've heard of him. As in who? Jesus? Tom Bombadil?

But assuming they have put any thought into that bit of info, I do consider it very interesting at the same time.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well that's very interesting. It seems in Remake at least, the answer has been answered a little more, although I'd argue it opens more questions. It makes it seem like there was, in however small a capacity, a mono-theistic religion in either the world of Final Fantasy IIV remake or just in Midgar; and Aeris at least has heard of God.

I mean... thinking more on it, Genesis will refer often to the gift of the Goddess and it's not like anyone bats an eyelid so it's not like deities being mentioned makes no sense. But at the same time, nothing about the world we've seen really suggests there is anything or has been anything like say Yevon worship. No-one even seems against religious worship. It's just a non-factor.

I could speculate a reason why here too. The dominance of a company like Shinra to having absolute power would be able to keep things from the public and even over time eradicate history. Most ordinary people in that world seem to have very little idea of what's happened in their worlds history. A town with an incident like Nibbelheim can just be rebuilt and replaced with the settlers having no knowledge of the fire they will share. Maybe people elsewhere in the game could potentially be these kind of actors. We wouldn't know really. Like the entire town of Kaim could theoretically be just like Nibbleheim. If there was some worship of God, Shinra probably wouldn't allow it to go on. They also probably would see it as supersticous and if at some point there had been any kind of that belief, they Shinra, would have seen it refuted by their study of mako, the lifestream, Jenova etc. It would be I suppose, as if the United States Government were expected to believe in God creating the Earth a certain way, then learning of extra terrestrials who had been intimately involved with the history of the planet. They're probably going to lean closer to science.

I wasn't really interested in the lore consequences of the church, but when I think about it it is interesting, but that context from the novel really makes you think.

I would not have made the choice to clarify it at all in the remake if I was writing the game or books. It's strange to me, as if Aeris is saying "I've heard of him. As in who? Jesus? Tom Bombadil?

Kitase.

Now I wonder what word was used originally. Kami, or Kami-sama or what.

 

[ForceStealer]

I remember Cid talks about God in On the Way to a Smile. Something about getting his ass down there because Cid has words for him.

 

[Wol]

aren't summons referred as gods in Rebirth? maybe there is a father god, highest in the hierarchy?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Odin the All-Father rides up.

aren't summons referred as gods in Rebirth? maybe there is a father god, highest in the hierarchy?

Odin: Am I a joke to you?

 

[Cthulhu]

It'd be hilarious if this church full of flowers is the ruin of some Lovecraft-lite cult that chanted nightly under the moon to call forth Chaos to shred their enemies, who just gave up when the plate was built and they couldn't see the moon anymore

I like to think Jenova and her Kin are the Great Old Ones in FFVII,

 

[Clive]

In the OG there was an implication that the general public didn't really know about the Lifestream. ("I asked if she meant a star in the sky," etc.) In that case they could be worshipping any number of deities. But in the remake it's pretty clear that everyone knows exactly what it is, so yeah I'm not sure what they have to pray to unless they're Genesis?

Of course praying to ancestors is pretty consistent with both the Lifestream and Japanese religious practice, though they don't call such places "churches."

hi i have a question if that's ok, you seem very knowlgable about the game, so....

Why Sephiroth released us? if he did it for us to participate in the reunion, does that mean he knew that cloud is a strong copy from the very beginning, and that he will be the one which will bring Sephiroth the black materia? (because some people say that the black cloacked people AKA the copies aren't strong enough to survive the hursh journey to the temple and afterwards to the reunion at the crater...)
so if he knew that cloud is so strong, and that's why he released cloud, why at the cargo ship he asks "who are you" to cloud??
and why people say that Sephiroth couldn't order some copy to bring him the black materia and solve the puzzle? i mean, the copies are injected with jenova cells and mako bathing as well, so they are physically strong, sure they are mentally ill, but if seph would have control one of them and order him to go there and solve a puzzle, then wait as jenovaroth outside and take the black materia so everything is good for him...
the most important question is: did he wait on purpose for cloud on the cargo ship, to mess with him in order to make him mentally weaker, which in turn will make cloud more vulnerable to Sephiroth? otherwise why he needed jenovaroth so much? if not to apear to cloud and the others as Sephiroth to make cloud to want even more go and defeat Sephiroth??

thanks!

 

[ForceStealer]

hi i have a question if that's ok, you seem very knowlgable about the game, so....

Why Sephiroth released us? if he did it for us to participate in the reunion, does that mean he knew that cloud is a strong copy from the very beginning, and that he will be the one which will bring Sephiroth the black materia? (because some people say that the black cloacked people AKA the copies aren't strong enough to survive the hursh journey to the temple and afterwards to the reunion at the crater...)
so if he knew that cloud is so strong, and that's why he released cloud, why at the cargo ship he asks "who are you" to cloud??
and why people say that Sephiroth couldn't order some copy to bring him the black materia and solve the puzzle? i mean, the copies are injected with jenova cells and mako bathing as well, so they are physically strong, sure they are mentally ill, but if seph would have control one of them and order him to go there and solve a puzzle, then wait as jenovaroth outside and take the black materia so everything is good for him...
the most important question is: did he wait on purpose for cloud on the cargo ship, to mess with him in order to make him mentally weaker, which in turn will make cloud more vulnerable to Sephiroth? otherwise why he needed jenovaroth so much? if not to apear to cloud and the others as Sephiroth to make cloud to want even more go and defeat Sephiroth??

thanks!

Basically, it's because Sephiroth is still miffed that a nobody managed to kill him. Therefore, he has a compulsion to dominate Cloud to show his superiority over him. To emphasize that this faceless trooper hadn't actually bested him. I don't think he thinks Cloud is that strong, he just has this streak of vengeance him despite his ascended nature, which is the whole reason he lost.
Some of the black cloaks couldn't make the journey, but clearly several can, he could have totally had one of them solve the puzzles in the Temple, get crushed, and take the Black Materia. But he specifically wanted Cloud to do it.
"jenovaroth" only really needed to exist inasmuch as he needed to get Jenova's body to the Northern Cave where he was. I dunno if he waited for Cloud to reach the cargo ship specifically, but it certainly served his purposes, and he took advantage of the opportunity to mess his mind further by saying "who are you?"

Had he not had this need to establish dominance over Cloud, he could have achieved his ends much faster. Had a flunky shrink the black materia, then rush to the Northern Cave and call Meteor before anyone knew anything about how they might stop him.