Why is mako coming out of the reactors?

AKA
The Engineer
#26
Weiss is... one of the scariest guys in the Compilation all things considered. He went through all the crap Deepground could throw at him and still manages to be unironically sane and the most powerful person in Deepground physically (can fight Azul and Rosso at the same time and defeat them and still be board afterwards). As far as I can tell, his main goal is getting him and everyone else in Deepground out of Deepground because none of them like being there... which is... totally understandable. He's just... powerful and smart enough to figure out a plan that actually works. The only thing that manages to defeat him is an out-of-context problem he had no way of knowing existed (got brain-jacked by Hojo).

I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to see at least one fight between Weiss and Sephrioth because in all honesty... Weiss has a really good shot at being in Sephrioth's weight class. And he's got (practically) no direct tie to Jenova for Sephrioth to mess with, so Sephrioth wouldn't be able to pull all the mental manipulation tricks he tends to rely on with Cloud. He'd actually have to rely only on skill for once...
 
#27
Concentrated mako + mentally and physically weak human =monster.
I always thought a 'monster' is meant to be someone that's been infected with Jenova's virus (cells).
Perhaps the meaning of this word has become more complex following the compilation and I have not integrated these changes in my interpretation...
 
#29
Yeah I tought about that. Aren't the enemies we fight along the way called monsters too ? I guess they are.
But nothing tells us they're not remnants from the initial Jenova takeover attemp !
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#30
There's no reason to assume every monster that exists in FFVII is a product of Jenova.

The specimens in the Drum are creatures and things created through experiments with Jenova cells, that's what the story tells us.
 
#32
There's no reason to assume every monster that exists in FFVII is a product of Jenova.
However, I find the idea interesting and not without founding elements.
Is there a reason to assume each 'monster' has been brought into contact with Mako?

The specimens in the Drum are creatures and things created through experiments with Jenova cells, that's what the story tells us.
Yes, it makes things even fuzzier. Perhaps the definition of a 'monster' does not need to be precise in this universe.
 
#33
It seems to be the case that in-game characters use the word "monster" for all kinds of flora and fauna that are natural to their world. I don't really know what differentiates an epiornis (monster) from a chocobo (not-monster), except that one is wild and one is, or can be, tamed. Creatures like jumpings and muu and even dragons aren't "monstrous" in the way that those things in the hold of sunken Gelnika are.
 
#34
Can someone tell me what are the elements that can lead to declare that someone who comes into contact with Mako (that and the subject having to be weak) becomes a monster?

Maybe in this universe a single monster concept is designated by several names (monster, creature, thing,...), or different monster concepts can have the same name. Maybe both at the same time. This vagueness is a bit annoying because a certain concept of monster is quite central to the plot I find. And as Martine Aubry would say: "If it's blurry, chances are there is a wolf". lol
 
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AKA
The Engineer
#36
When in doubt about... a lot of general FFVII terms, your best resource is the CC Keyword Collection; it's very diverse in the topics covered and there's a lot about the effects of both mako and Jenova on beings (and more importantly, why they work that way in-universe).

There's some pretty fun stuff going on there in the topic of "monsters".
Monsters
Living things, both plants and animals, who have been over-exposed to mako and thus suddenly mutated. The two causes are roughly divided between beings affected by natural springs of mako that well up from the soil, and those that were produced through Shin-Ra experiments. Therefore, in areas where there is little natural mako monsters are only seen on occasion, and as for the ones born from Shin-Ra experiments, many have escaped over the course of the war and have begun breeding in the wild.
Monster Investigation Program
A program aimed at gathering information about the appearance of monsters all over the world. As it is necessary to make contact with the monsters, this dangerous investigation is assigned as part of a SOLDIER’s duty. After investigating the monsters within Midgar, harsher missions have operatives traveling to uninhabited areas and islands.
Mako Humans (a.k.a. Makonoids)
Humans who have been continually injected with mako, and have turned into monsters. In addition to those who were being cultivated in the mako capsules in the Nibel mako reactor, there are also those in created by the research of Genesis’ group in the Banora underground.
So... monsters have always been around, in particular in areas rich in mako where it bubbles out of the ground natturally (Nibelehim, Northern Crater, Mideel). However, Shinra has been playing around with creating monsters via mako exposure and enough of those have escaped to start breeding in the wild as well. Shinra is itself aware of this problem and has an entire program that is... essentially making bestiary of what monsters exist where and that program is dangerous enough that it's SOLDIER that does that. The Makonoids in particular are human experiments exposed to mako... but even then it notes that they have to be continually injected with mako for that to happen.

So yeah, there's plenty of in-universe evidence that monsters would have been an issue without any Jenova exposure. It's just that since Shinra started experimenting with mako, there's been more more monsters in places that otherwise might not have had any of them. But monsters didn't not exist in the world either... they were simply more common in places with mako.

It's also worth pointing out that in order for "monsters" to be a thing, there had to be some other living thing around to get mako exposure and... normal animals can be pretty dangerous to people all on their own. Mako just... would have made them even more dangerous then they already were. Take something like a crocodile, lion, elephant, buffalo, komodo dragon, bear, etc. Anything people IRL know is huge and dangerous and then... have it hang around an area rich in mako for a while. Biologists must have always had a field day in the FFVII world when it came to taxonomy.

The ironic thing is... mako itself is a source of life. There is good reason for... just about anything in the FFVII world to want to live in a mako rich area as that is where life is the most... lush. Or rather, areas that don't have a lot of life aren't near mako. "Monsters" just seem to be what happens when something gets "too much" spirit energy. Although "too much" spirit energy varies on what the plot wants to happen at the time. However, most reactions we see beings have to mako aren't from the first time they come in contact with mako. It's usually only from a lot of long continued exposure to it. So that is probably why not everything in a mako-rich area turns into mosters just from being in the area (the people in Nibelehim and Mideel get a lot more continued exposure than most people do and are fine). They'd actually need to go and... sit... in mako for long periods of time.
 
#38
When in doubt about... a lot of general FFVII terms, your best resource is the CC Keyword Collection; it's very diverse in the topics covered and there's a lot about the effects of both mako and Jenova on beings (and more importantly, why they work that way in-universe).
Thank you very much @ObsidianFire for all these elements and comments !
A monster is also the name by which Ifalna qualifies the beings who were contaminated by Jenova 2000 years ago and who became crazy consecutively. It doesn't appear in the definition of monster that you provide but I guess that definition only takes into account what is given in Crisis Core.

An organism contaminated by Jenova is a monster.
An organism that has come into prolonged contact with spiritual energy is a monster.
A SOLDIER is an organism into which Jenova cells have been injected before being immersed in a Mako bath.
A SOLDIER would therefore be a double monster ...?

Has this singular homonymy ever been the object of interpretation?
 
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#40
I doubt there's an easy way to tell, even in universe. The wildlife is more dangerous than ours regardless, because so many of them have ranged attacks.

Azul has pretty much the same attitude post Deepground as he had pre Deepground. He loves fighting and wants to be the biggest kid in the playground.

[/quote]
Their degradation was just a result of the poor integration of their human cells with Jenova's in utero. Genesis's training accident just led to this discovery about his physiology when he was no longer displaying advanced healing and sought medical treatment from Hollander, who spilled the beans. [/quote]

So why did they not degrade before then?
 
AKA
The Engineer
#41
An organism contaminated by Jenova is a monster.
An organism that has come into prolonged contact with spiritual energy is a monster.
A SOLDIER is an organism into which Jenova cells have been injected before being immersed in a Mako bath.
A SOLDIER would therefore be a double monster ...?
Funny you should mention this. Sephrioth himself talks about this parallel in the OG at the Nibelehim Reactor. It's Zack pointing out the logic in his reasoning that causes Seprhioth to wonder if he himself was created and is a monster. Which starts Sephrioth's whole downward spiral.

Note that this is from the Kalm Flashback, so any mention of Cloud is really Zack. CC has... this exact same scene play out in terms of dialogue.
Cloud
Wh... what is this!?

Sephiroth
Normal members of SOLDIER are humans that have been showered with Mako.
You're different from the others, but still human.
But, what are they? They've been exposed to a high degree of Mako, far more than you.

Cloud
...is this some kind of monster?

Sephiroth
Exactly. And it's Hojo of Shinra that produced these monsters.
Mutated living organisms produced by Mako energy. That's what these monster's really are.

Cloud
Normal members of SOLDIER? You mean you're different?

Cloud
H... hey, Sephiroth!

Sephiroth
N... no......
...Was I?

Sephiroth
...Was I created this way too?
Am I the same as all these monsters......

Cloud
...Sephiroth.

Sephiroth
You saw it! All of them... were humans...

Cloud
Human!? No way!


Sephiroth
...I've always felt since I was small...
That I was different from the others. Special, in some way.
But... not like this...
 
#42
Well spotted !
Isn't it interesting to see these two ideas/concepts of 'monster' gathered at the very crisis core ?

I guess I still have to work on my interpretation, but maybe that means a particular concept of 'monster' is the fruit of both wills (Jenova and the Planet).
Does this kind of monster suffer internally from the fight that these two entities are supposed to wage against each other? We know that there have been successes and failures. Is a failure simply due to an overdose of knowledge? Does a success indicate that an agreement has been reached between the two parties? Or that there maybe never was a conflict to begin with?
 
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AKA
The Engineer
#43
Oh... btw... the monsters around Midgar are from the Science Department... but not from Hojo. One of his researchers... mentally lost it when he found out about what happened with Ifalna... and decided that what happened was so bad everyone in Shira should die. So he purposely released the monsters from the science department around Midgar in hopes that they would kill everyone off.

This is the same reasoning AVALANCHE (the orriginal organization) has. That humanity has hurt the Planet so much, humanity itself should be killed. By a WEAPON...
 
#44
Oh... btw... the monsters around Midgar are from the Science Department... but not from Hojo. One of his researchers... mentally lost it when he found out about what happened with Ifalna... and decided that what happened was so bad everyone in Shira should die. So he purposely released the monsters from the science department around Midgar in hopes that they would kill everyone off.
Is this from CC ?

This is the same reasoning AVALANCHE (the orriginal organization) has. That humanity has hurt the Planet so much, humanity itself should be killed. By a WEAPON...
Different entities/organizations have tried to remove humanity from the surface of the planet during the timeline.
The calamity from the sky first, AVALANCHE and Zirconiade, the researcher who apparently freed monsters around Midgar, Sephiroth and Holy (the whole adventure is triggered by an operation of the AVALANCHE Midgar cell), Hojo with Chaos in DC.

We are taught from the very beginning that the planet needs some survival grooming.
From there to think that the Planet's will could be the trigger behind all these acts...
 
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AKA
The Engineer
#45
It's from CCs NPC dialouge which... almost never shows up in playthroughs. And can't be viewed in cutscenes.

Interesting, the last thing written before Remake comes out is the Kids Are Alright. And that novella ends on the premise of...
“I figured the lifestream would take care of things that were too much for us humans to handle.”
Where the thing the Lifestream took care of was Kadaj and a piece of Jenova. There's nothing to indicate this is a wrong way of thinking either.
 

FFShinra

Sharp Shinra Shill
#47
Oh man, how did I find this thread only now. I missed all the fun with discussing reactor operation.

EDIT-

I'll just add that I always saw (especially the Midgar type reactors) as a combo of refinery and molten salt fuel reactor (not to be confused with molten salt cooling reactors), just with the fuel salt coming directly from the refinery part of the system.
 
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