waw
Pro Adventurer
That's a great summary but it does miss some beats:
You're comparing a war that lasted roughly a decade or so with a century long system of confrontations that did involve "traditional wars." Europeans wanted Chinese products and were willing to subvert, defy, and challenge Chinese hegemony at every turn for it. China was too "established" to occupy -> meaning the Europeans didn't want to replace the Chinese government. But this is also because of the peculiar nature of imperialism and capitalism in the 1800s. You're looking at companies having interests that governments are backing due to mutual profitability. But this is really reductive of what happened in China.
We could take the Opium Wars as a better example to see how reistant government led to invasion and war, rather than say, the whole of the 1800s for a comparison.
I'm quite familiar with Zaibatsu, but this is an odd turn, too. If Shinra and Midgar are supposed to be indicative of America and American businesses, the Zaibatsu isn't the best comparison. Zaibatsu were also part of an oligarch structure for Imperial Japan in which they were very nearly state-ran enterprises due to the close nature of militarist entrenched bureaucrats and the nature of most zaibatsu.
When you say "the Wutai War feels like it fits in more in that kind of economic environment" it gets weird. That is predicated that Wutai had rival economic structures to Shinra and what happened in the east - of which we have no evidence. The only evidence of the causes of the war was wanting resource (a mako reactor in the place of Da Chao) that's a hazy reason in canon (especially by Remake). This makes it more akin to the Opium Wars or various oil wars in the middle east.
But all of these have a territorial imperial power backing corporate interests (i.e. Haliburton, etc). Shinra's war is without a traditional civic/imperial power - it seems to be a minimalist/anarcho-capitalist territory. "Free enterprise" vs. a state. That's a bit beyond WWII, though it would reflect the desire for western economic interests in a "traditional" country.
The problem with all of this, however is that we do not see anywhere in the compilation Shinra wielding full economic control over Wutai, nominal or otherwise. There does not seem to be a Reactor built on Sacred ground and we see no modernization/selling of Shinra products in Wutai. This becomes important when we understand the shift from the end of the war/treaty/peace in OG vs. the "ceasefire" in Remake:
Ceasefires are temporary cessations of hostility and active fighting. Yes, they can continue on "peaceful" terms while still being at war. North and South Korea are probably the best examples of this with no formal peace treaty, just a sort of on-going armistice with attempts at greater economic cooperatives in more recent years. But the countries are still "technically" at war.
Whether Prez says he wants "another" war with Wutai or "to restart" the war with Wutai is irrelevant. "Ceasefire" means hostilities haulted, but never technically ended.
And to your point about Genesis and Avalanche, it makes sense that Shinra couldn't finish the job due to conflict on multiple fronts, some of which is based in Wutai and continues conflict with the Engetsu, etc. But this does show a severe limit to both Shinra's power and what Wutai could look like in a more fleshed out nature of Remake. But if we accept some story that Shirna couldn't finish the job due to other conflicts, then we must revisit the idea of what Shinra's intentions were and this idea of "wiping them off the map" would actually entail. How far did Shinra want to go, what were their true intentions, and what is the President's true intentions as of Remake?... er was.
And that brings me back to this:
This is true for how much of FFVII? So the "story" wouldn't change because it's a side mission. Vincent can be totally cut too, but so could other more core components including: Barret vs. Dyne, it's a side story that just serves to cap off Barret's mission. After this, you really don't need Barret in the narrative at all. Cid doesn't really need to join the party - you only need his plane for travel. While he leads the party later, any character could. He's not even needed to be in the party for the Rocket 26 storyline with the Huge Materia. With that, Nanaki's cave adventure doesn't serve the greater story, it's only fluff for him. This list of things that wouldn't change the "story" goes on. Most of this stuff is unnecessary to the core conflict and story beats. I'm not sure what pointing out the superfluous material of side stories add to the overall dialog.
If we go back to the early draft stuff for FF7, the war was there and part of it. It's important to understand Shinra's dominance and why Avalanche feels so alone in the OG. There's no one they can turn to for aid in their war. There's no other nation they can ask for support, unlike other FF games. Essentailly in OG, Shinra conquered the world.
In Remake, Wutai held out. That's not insignificant. AVALANCHE may get far more support from Wutai than in the original story.
We see one country and Shinra went to war with it for some reason. National borders factor into what Shinra can do. Yes, they don't care for them, but they still have to deal with them.
You're comparing a war that lasted roughly a decade or so with a century long system of confrontations that did involve "traditional wars." Europeans wanted Chinese products and were willing to subvert, defy, and challenge Chinese hegemony at every turn for it. China was too "established" to occupy -> meaning the Europeans didn't want to replace the Chinese government. But this is also because of the peculiar nature of imperialism and capitalism in the 1800s. You're looking at companies having interests that governments are backing due to mutual profitability. But this is really reductive of what happened in China.
We could take the Opium Wars as a better example to see how reistant government led to invasion and war, rather than say, the whole of the 1800s for a comparison.
I'm quite familiar with Zaibatsu, but this is an odd turn, too. If Shinra and Midgar are supposed to be indicative of America and American businesses, the Zaibatsu isn't the best comparison. Zaibatsu were also part of an oligarch structure for Imperial Japan in which they were very nearly state-ran enterprises due to the close nature of militarist entrenched bureaucrats and the nature of most zaibatsu.
When you say "the Wutai War feels like it fits in more in that kind of economic environment" it gets weird. That is predicated that Wutai had rival economic structures to Shinra and what happened in the east - of which we have no evidence. The only evidence of the causes of the war was wanting resource (a mako reactor in the place of Da Chao) that's a hazy reason in canon (especially by Remake). This makes it more akin to the Opium Wars or various oil wars in the middle east.
But all of these have a territorial imperial power backing corporate interests (i.e. Haliburton, etc). Shinra's war is without a traditional civic/imperial power - it seems to be a minimalist/anarcho-capitalist territory. "Free enterprise" vs. a state. That's a bit beyond WWII, though it would reflect the desire for western economic interests in a "traditional" country.
The problem with all of this, however is that we do not see anywhere in the compilation Shinra wielding full economic control over Wutai, nominal or otherwise. There does not seem to be a Reactor built on Sacred ground and we see no modernization/selling of Shinra products in Wutai. This becomes important when we understand the shift from the end of the war/treaty/peace in OG vs. the "ceasefire" in Remake:
Ceasefires are temporary cessations of hostility and active fighting. Yes, they can continue on "peaceful" terms while still being at war. North and South Korea are probably the best examples of this with no formal peace treaty, just a sort of on-going armistice with attempts at greater economic cooperatives in more recent years. But the countries are still "technically" at war.
Whether Prez says he wants "another" war with Wutai or "to restart" the war with Wutai is irrelevant. "Ceasefire" means hostilities haulted, but never technically ended.
And to your point about Genesis and Avalanche, it makes sense that Shinra couldn't finish the job due to conflict on multiple fronts, some of which is based in Wutai and continues conflict with the Engetsu, etc. But this does show a severe limit to both Shinra's power and what Wutai could look like in a more fleshed out nature of Remake. But if we accept some story that Shirna couldn't finish the job due to other conflicts, then we must revisit the idea of what Shinra's intentions were and this idea of "wiping them off the map" would actually entail. How far did Shinra want to go, what were their true intentions, and what is the President's true intentions as of Remake?... er was.
And that brings me back to this:
This is true for how much of FFVII? So the "story" wouldn't change because it's a side mission. Vincent can be totally cut too, but so could other more core components including: Barret vs. Dyne, it's a side story that just serves to cap off Barret's mission. After this, you really don't need Barret in the narrative at all. Cid doesn't really need to join the party - you only need his plane for travel. While he leads the party later, any character could. He's not even needed to be in the party for the Rocket 26 storyline with the Huge Materia. With that, Nanaki's cave adventure doesn't serve the greater story, it's only fluff for him. This list of things that wouldn't change the "story" goes on. Most of this stuff is unnecessary to the core conflict and story beats. I'm not sure what pointing out the superfluous material of side stories add to the overall dialog.
If we go back to the early draft stuff for FF7, the war was there and part of it. It's important to understand Shinra's dominance and why Avalanche feels so alone in the OG. There's no one they can turn to for aid in their war. There's no other nation they can ask for support, unlike other FF games. Essentailly in OG, Shinra conquered the world.
In Remake, Wutai held out. That's not insignificant. AVALANCHE may get far more support from Wutai than in the original story.
