Wutai War

[Obsidian Fire]

The thing is... you could completely cut the Wutai War out and the story of the OG wouldn't change at all... To the point you can skip getting Yufffie and not ever go to Wuati and nothing changes. While it makes for good world-buidling, it doesn't really effect anything. This puts the war in the awkward spot of needing to come up with a reason to justify why it happened after the fact since "why" it happened never really was specified in the OG.

1. In BC, Turks assault an Avalanche HQ in Wutai iirc. What are the nuances involved with a covert op in a foreign country?

None. The Turks are Shinra's black opps unit. They pretty much go wherever they want whenever they want and no one in Shinra gives a shit. Shinra itself doesn't really care for country boundary lines... to the point there flat out isn't countries in FFVII at all. The Turks are... also of the mind that rules are more guidelines than things they actually have to follow...

2. What sort of military power is Wutai holding onto that Shinra hasn't openly invaded again? (Why is Prez holding back, popular support?)

Shinra doesn't have to take Wutai over and it's not... wise... being in a war for too long. Again, the point of Shinra is not to destory countries, it's to get an economic monopoly over them. Which is a lot easier to do if the local populous is still around to pay Shinra money for products...

It's also worth mentioning that after the Wutai War in the Compilation, Shinra had more pressing matters to deal with. Genesis was a major problem world-wide as was AVALANCHE. And both those forces were strong enough to combat SOLDIER with some degrees of success. Genesis flat out got SOLDIERs to desert (and had all his Copy Technology). AVLANACHE kidnapped SOLDIERs and experimented on them. So SOLDIER has a lot of threats they personally need to deal with because the rest of Shinra's forces can't right after the Wutai War is officially over.

3. How will a storyline like the Turks vacay'ing in Wutai be handled when they're still technically at war?

Probably the same as it will in canon. Wutai is not "technically" at war with Shinra. They are "technically" at peace. It's just that both countries have their black opps units running around without their "offical" knowledge. Crisis Core makes it pretty obvious that Shinra was winning that unofficial war too thanks to SOLDIER.

The thing is that the Wutai War is not really a conventional "war" in that Shinra wants to wipe Wutai off the map. It's a war like when the Eurpoeans wanted to do business with China (and other mainland Asian countries) and the Chinese didn't want the Eurpoeans in their country. So they started fighting over if Europe was "allowed" to do business in China. The Europeans won, so they could do business with China (and the rest of mainland Asia really).

Japan's relationship with Europe didn't go that route, in large part because Japan made it's culture more European on purpose (so the Europeans thought they were cultural equals) and didn't get into an actual war with Europe (or at least, not like other parts of Asia did). And... a lot of Shinra pulls from that era of Japanese history. Particularly the concept of a "zaibatsu", a vertically integrated business conglomerate usually run by one family owned company. They were... a big deal in Japanese economics from the Meiji Period until the end of World War II (1860s to 1945). So the Wutai War feels like it fits in more in that kind of economic environment rather than just being a territory grab.

 

[waw]

That's a great summary but it does miss some beats:

Shinra itself doesn't really care for country boundary lines...

We see one country and Shinra went to war with it for some reason. National borders factor into what Shinra can do. Yes, they don't care for them, but they still have to deal with them.

The thing is that the Wutai War is not really a conventional "war" in that Shinra wants to wipe Wutai off the map. It's a war like when the Eurpoeans wanted to do business with China (and other mainland Asian countries) and the Chinese didn't want the Eurpoeans in their country. So they started fighting over if Europe was "allowed" to do business in China. The Europeans won, so they could do business with China (and the rest of mainland Asia really).

You're comparing a war that lasted roughly a decade or so with a century long system of confrontations that did involve "traditional wars." Europeans wanted Chinese products and were willing to subvert, defy, and challenge Chinese hegemony at every turn for it. China was too "established" to occupy -> meaning the Europeans didn't want to replace the Chinese government. But this is also because of the peculiar nature of imperialism and capitalism in the 1800s. You're looking at companies having interests that governments are backing due to mutual profitability. But this is really reductive of what happened in China.

We could take the Opium Wars as a better example to see how reistant government led to invasion and war, rather than say, the whole of the 1800s for a comparison.

Japan's relationship with Europe didn't go that route, in large part because Japan made it's culture more European on purpose (so the Europeans thought they were cultural equals) and didn't get into an actual war with Europe (or at least, not like other parts of Asia did). And... a lot of Shinra pulls from that era of Japanese history. Particularly the concept of a "zaibatsu", a vertically integrated business conglomerate usually run by one family owned company. They were... a big deal in Japanese economics from the Meiji Period until the end of World War II (1860s to 1945). So the Wutai War feels like it fits in more in that kind of economic environment rather than just being a territory grab.

I'm quite familiar with Zaibatsu, but this is an odd turn, too. If Shinra and Midgar are supposed to be indicative of America and American businesses, the Zaibatsu isn't the best comparison. Zaibatsu were also part of an oligarch structure for Imperial Japan in which they were very nearly state-ran enterprises due to the close nature of militarist entrenched bureaucrats and the nature of most zaibatsu.

When you say "the Wutai War feels like it fits in more in that kind of economic environment" it gets weird. That is predicated that Wutai had rival economic structures to Shinra and what happened in the east - of which we have no evidence. The only evidence of the causes of the war was wanting resource (a mako reactor in the place of Da Chao) that's a hazy reason in canon (especially by Remake). This makes it more akin to the Opium Wars or various oil wars in the middle east.

But all of these have a territorial imperial power backing corporate interests (i.e. Haliburton, etc). Shinra's war is without a traditional civic/imperial power - it seems to be a minimalist/anarcho-capitalist territory. "Free enterprise" vs. a state. That's a bit beyond WWII, though it would reflect the desire for western economic interests in a "traditional" country.

The problem with all of this, however is that we do not see anywhere in the compilation Shinra wielding full economic control over Wutai, nominal or otherwise. There does not seem to be a Reactor built on Sacred ground and we see no modernization/selling of Shinra products in Wutai. This becomes important when we understand the shift from the end of the war/treaty/peace in OG vs. the "ceasefire" in Remake:

Wutai is not "technically" at war with Shinra. They are "technically" at peace.

Ceasefires are temporary cessations of hostility and active fighting. Yes, they can continue on "peaceful" terms while still being at war. North and South Korea are probably the best examples of this with no formal peace treaty, just a sort of on-going armistice with attempts at greater economic cooperatives in more recent years. But the countries are still "technically" at war.

Whether Prez says he wants "another" war with Wutai or "to restart" the war with Wutai is irrelevant. "Ceasefire" means hostilities haulted, but never technically ended.

And to your point about Genesis and Avalanche, it makes sense that Shinra couldn't finish the job due to conflict on multiple fronts, some of which is based in Wutai and continues conflict with the Engetsu, etc. But this does show a severe limit to both Shinra's power and what Wutai could look like in a more fleshed out nature of Remake. But if we accept some story that Shirna couldn't finish the job due to other conflicts, then we must revisit the idea of what Shinra's intentions were and this idea of "wiping them off the map" would actually entail. How far did Shinra want to go, what were their true intentions, and what is the President's true intentions as of Remake?... er was.

And that brings me back to this:

you could completely cut the Wutai War out and the story of the OG wouldn't change at all...To the point you can skip getting Yufffie and not ever go to Wuati and nothing changes. While it makes for good world-buidling, it doesn't really effect anything. This puts the war in the awkward spot of needing to come up with a reason to justify why it happened after the fact since "why" it happened never really was specified in the OG

This is true for how much of FFVII? So the "story" wouldn't change because it's a side mission. Vincent can be totally cut too, but so could other more core components including: Barret vs. Dyne, it's a side story that just serves to cap off Barret's mission. After this, you really don't need Barret in the narrative at all. Cid doesn't really need to join the party - you only need his plane for travel. While he leads the party later, any character could. He's not even needed to be in the party for the Rocket 26 storyline with the Huge Materia. With that, Nanaki's cave adventure doesn't serve the greater story, it's only fluff for him. This list of things that wouldn't change the "story" goes on. Most of this stuff is unnecessary to the core conflict and story beats. I'm not sure what pointing out the superfluous material of side stories add to the overall dialog.

If we go back to the early draft stuff for FF7, the war was there and part of it. It's important to understand Shinra's dominance and why Avalanche feels so alone in the OG. There's no one they can turn to for aid in their war. There's no other nation they can ask for support, unlike other FF games. Essentailly in OG, Shinra conquered the world.

In Remake, Wutai held out. That's not insignificant. AVALANCHE may get far more support from Wutai than in the original story.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wutai didn't "hold out."

You're taking Shinra's propaganda far too seriously. Heidegger explicitly stated to President Shinra that Wutai is simply being scapegoated according to their plan to turn the public against AVALANCHE and justify the increased hostilities and violence from Shinra throughout Midgar.

There is no reason to believe there's only a "ceasefire." That's Shinra propaganda that's shown to be lies.

The only real force that's challenging Shinra is AVALANCHE. Both Barret's incarnation and the remainder from Before Crisis.

Yuffie is explicitly acting alone in her "mission" to fight Shinra. Hence why she ends up banding together with Cloud and his materia in the first place.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think we're kind of talking past each other about what Shinra really wants. And what Wutai really wants. Shinra isn't divided over what they want... but Wutai is. So you have some people in Wutai who want the war over and done with and others who want to keep fighting.

We also don't know what Rufus is going to want to do with Wutai compared to what his father wanted to do with Wutai. Although Rufus has a much longer view than his dad does, so I can see him wanting a war even less. He's got other stuff to worry about like Sephrioth and the Whispers.

My point about the Wutai War being optional is that it's optional in a way nothing else in the OG is. Barret, Cid and Nanaki all are forced by the main story to join your party and in order to get to other parts of the story, they have to deal with things in their past. You can't get out of Corel Prison until you deal with Dyne. You absolutely need Cid to help with the Huge Materia as he's the only one who knows how the Rocket works. Nanaki's Cave Adventure is a huge hint into how death works (and doesn't work) in the Lifestream. And all of those together serve a purpose in building up how Cloud cares about people other than himself and is a leader of the group.

In the OG, Wutai is less about the fight against Shinra and more about how strength is pointless when there's no determination to back it up. Or rather, it's about how Wutai and Shinra are the same. Might begets might and what else is might used for than winning battles or showing of to people how strong you are? It almost sounds like Wutai fighting the war made them out to be the same as Shinra in Godo's eyes.

Godo
Silence!!
Yuffie......
I am the same now as I was before when I wanted the war.
But, after I lost the war, I began to think...
Is strength, only for defeating the enemy?
...or just something to show-off to others...?
Might begets might.
That's the same way as the Shinra...

Yuffie
......

Godo
I knew you were looking for Materia for the good of Wutai.
But, the reason I hide my strength now, is also for the good of Wutai...
And now, I realize both are necessary...
Strength without determination means nothing. And determination without strength is equally useless...!

The story that takes place in Wutai isn't about fighting Shinra either. It's instead about teaming up with the Turks to save Yuffie and Elena from Don Corneo. It highlights the similarities between the Turks and AVALANCHE about how they care about their own people. And how Yuufie's veiw of the situation Wutai is in is too simple. Everything is more complicated than it looks on the surface.

Wutai doesn't show us anything about Cloud really... or AVALANCHE. It instead is about how a nation avoided getting overrun completely by surrendering to a stronger force and about how both sides of the conflict have people who care about each other... even if it's in very odd ways.

I just look at that and how Sephrioth is much more the focus of Remake and wonder how they'll include Sephrioth in the Wutai conflict this time around... because that feels like where the Remake is headed for most things.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I see Wutai staying the same, except far more expanded to include more backstory on Yuffie since she has her own separate quest there to rise above the Five Mighty Gods. They'll certainly use that to expand her backstory and the other Wusheng. They're totally going to give Wutai the Midgar treatment to show off just how bigger and better it is.

 

[waw]

It'll be interesting if Wutai really did surrender and there isn't a ceasefire. If that is just propaganda, that too is a really interesting addition to the narrative. With no real enemy left, Shinra fabricate one.

I'm not sure how that'll play out. If was a ceasefire or a surrender.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If Shinra and Midgar are supposed to be indicative of America and American businesses ...

Are we sure that this is the case? Kitase and Nojima are of the same generation as Katsuhiro Otomo, and it's likely no accident that FFVII explores many of the same themes as "Akira." Included in that is the theme of abandonment by mothers/the motherland, the loss of national identity, the loss of a communal sense of honor, etc.

It's impossible, of course, to separate the post-WWII Japanese culture (corporate and bureaucratic culture in particular) from American influence, and I don't doubt that Shin-Ra's Midgar is to some extent a stand-in for any overcrowded, nihilistic corporate civilization -- but I think it's very much grounded in the same prevailing sense of anomie, ennui, and acedia that gripped the Japanese generation who came of age in the 70s and 80s.

See also: "Tetsuo: The Iron Man"

My point about the Wutai War being optional is that it's optional in a way nothing else in the OG is.

Isn't that probably just because of Yuffie being a secret-ish character?

The story that takes place in Wutai isn't about fighting Shinra either. It's instead about teaming up with the Turks to save Yuffie and Elena from Don Corneo. It highlights the similarities between the Turks and AVALANCHE about how they care about their own people.

I mean, that notion that Shin-Ra's people and Avalanche's aren't really that different is pretty central to the story, and it's really getting emphasized in the remake.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If you don't go on the Wutai sidequest - and that sidequest is optional, and some people do miss it - then I don't think you ever learn very much about Wutai or the war anywhere else. So in that sense, it's optional extra information. You can have a perfectly good game experience without it.

@ WAW, yes, if the information is coming from Shinra, you can never take it at face value. It's like Animal Farm. "You thought we'd made peace with Wutai, comrade? Where did you get that idea? I don't think anyone ever called it a peace. Can you show me where we called it a peace? It was only a ceasefire, it was always only a ceasefire. And now, thanks to their terrorist perfidy, it's over."

 

[wildestdream]

The part with the Wutai people being the invaders (evil party)is hard to believe what with Shinra and all, but damn, that was still a good story! I liked the use of professor Gast....

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

They could both be evil empires.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

The thing is... you could completely cut the Wutai War out and the story of the OG wouldn't change at all...

So Sephiroth can't be a Hero and Cloud's reason to try to get into SOLDIER?
Would Zack's story be affected without friend Cloud? A little? None?
Sephiroth isn't surprised by Limitbreak Cloud at Nibel Reactor...?
What would then Sephiroth's plan/actions be if he doesn't fall into the Lifestream?



Hmmmm, too many implications...
Maybe you shouldn't write out Wutai War so easily.

 

[waw]

I opened the thread to get conversation going on the war and look at the wide ranging interpretations and theories we've had here. I want to highlight some of the contrarian views:

End of War:
-Either Shinra was too thinned out fighting Genesis and Avalanche that it had to end the war prematurely. (Ceasefire/peace/unfinished business)
-Shinra womped Wutai, beat them to the extent they wanted to, and keep referencing Wutai as a boogeyman

Body of the War:
-Shinra's tech and SOLDIER couldn't fully defeat Wutai (at least quickly). Monsters, anti-shinra troops, assymetric warfare played a key role.
-Shinra didn't want to beat Wutai fully into the ground, so they just beat them enough for propaganda and economic purposes.

Start of the war:
-Not entirely clear, but possibly over resources (such as a Mako Reactor at Da Chao)
-Taking out any potential rivals

After War:
-Shinra uses Wutai as an "other" propanda to justify power grabbing and police-state tactics
-Wutai may be a greater threat in Remake

Though we've gone a page or two in discussion, canon hasn't entirely cleared this stuff up yet! I really dig the input. One of the reasons I'm drawn to this is I teach East Asian history at univeristy. I find countless parallel moments between Midgar/Shinra and Wutai with real world events. I kept help but wonder if the ceasefire/treaty/end of the war is best understood as a sort of unequal treaty where colonization/occupation wasn't the goal (we might see occupation in post-WWII Japan for example) but rather enforced treaties that guarantee extraterritoriality (Shinra agents being exempt from Wutaian law) as well as other impositions that disband the Wutaian faith, government, military, etc to varying levels.

I still think that FF7 is best understood somewhat similar to Borderlands: a world that's largely post-governments due to corporations running amok to such an extent that civic powers have decayed to next to nothing. While we see some regional leaders, like a mayor, there's really no coherent government entity anywhere in the compilation outside of Wutai (maybe) and elders/mayors. It seems privatization has done away with law.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I teach East Asian history at univeristy

先輩!!

You're addressing many of the unanswered questions I also have about FFVII.

I've always liked to picture Shinra expanding in a way similar to the 17th century colonial trading companies. "Good day to you, ma'am, sir. We have come in our ships from across the sea to buy your lovely local produce and sell you electricity. Why yes, we do have a small army, but they're merely peacekeepers here to protect our personnel and our factories. Can we rent some territory from you? Are you sure? You won't mind if we follow our own laws on this territory, will you? Live and let live, that's the ticket. Why yes, we do sell weapons. Are you having beef with someone, my friend? Of course we would be delighted to lend you our aid, are you not our most favoured and best beloved trading partner? Perhaps you would like us to install some permanent garrisons, just to be on the safe side... "

Later, when the bill for the loan of the army and the price of weapons comes in and bankrupts the local principalty, Shinra shrugs and says, "That's the cost of doing business."

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I still think that FF7 is best understood somewhat similar to Borderlands: a world that's largely post-governments due to corporations running amok to such an extent that civic powers have decayed to next to nothing. While we see some regional leaders, like a mayor, there's really no coherent government entity anywhere in the compilation outside of Wutai (maybe) and elders/mayors. It seems privatization has done away with law.

The FF7 world is amazingly worse off than Borderlands is. At least Borderlands has multiple mega-corperations that really can compete with each other over various sectors of the tech industry. And it's got places the Mega-corporations ignore because those places are no longer profitable... which means the people actually living in those places end up getting left alone in the end (which sucks in another way, but well, at least they can now make decisions for themselves). The world of Pandora can kick Hyperion off it largely because Hyperion doesn't have any reason to be there anymore... which means Pandora can go back to governing itself again. Borderlands 2 would be like... if Wutai managed to push Shinra out and decisivly win the Wutai War.

FF7 would be like... if Hyperion managed to put all the other Mega-Corporations out of business and then didn't ignore all the scavengers but doubled down on actually making them buy their stuff or else they'd send their super-soldiers in. Which is a far cry from what Boarderlands' political situation is.

 

[FFShinra]

From the Barret and Cloud conversation, the ceasefire seems to have been sold as a victory to the general public. Barret (who is otherwise not usually inclined to buy Shinra propaganda but also does not like Wutai for some reason) is the one who doesn't think the heightened HQ security could possibly be for Wutai. Cloud, who subconsciously is able to rattle off what he knows from having been a Shinra grunt, and also is uninclined to believe Shinra propaganda, seems to believe the ceasefire is less steady than is generally known. From a Doylist perspective, it seems to me the devs would not have bothered with the dialogue unless they are changing the nature of the direction of the war from that of the OG.

Now that isn't to say Wutai necessarily has the power to actually attack Shinra (the heightened security having actually been for Avalanche HQ), but that coupled with the President-Heidegger discussion on Wutai's reaction to all the propaganda seems to imply that Wutai of the Remake is more independent than the one of the OG. Which I think is fine, I think they can still make the same point between Godo and Yuffie, especially if its over simply living on its own land versus getting revenge and sacking Midgar or some such. Hell, maybe Wutai already had the central continent (would explain Barret not liking them) as the previous empire and Shinra took it away from them. Still painful enough to piss off Yuffie, give Shinra the overall win, while still keeping Wutai a (potential) threat.

 

[abigail]

The thing is... you could completely cut the Wutai War out and the story of the OG wouldn't change at all... To the point you can skip getting Yufffie and not ever go to Wuati and nothing changes.

NoooOoo. you can pry Yuffie from my cold dead hands. she is the youngest, she is annoying. And yet FF7 isn't the same without her.

All the fanimations that give her an annoying voice, and and continue her fixation on Materia has only made me look forward to seeing her more in Remake.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't think Obsidian was saying the Remake should do this, but rather there have been players of the OG who never got Yuffie and never did the Wutai sidequest and still got a pretty full game experience, aside from not knowing about Wutai.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I am for sure not saying the Remake should make Yuffie optional. She she definetly be in the game as a full fledged party member. It would help a lot to make her character not be so one-dimentional.

I was more saying that the entire Wutai Side quest wasn't needed to make the OG feel "full" as the game story itself already feels that way. It very much felt like the dev team needed shinra to have fought a war in the past so Sephrioth could have the reputation of a "war hero"... but didn't really think about how or why the war really went down. Which is... pretty par for the course on a lot of background info in the OG.

Which... the Remake has been doing fantastic with... in the Material Ultimania. Someone has put a lot of work into Shinra's backstory and is probably doing that for Wutai too. I just am not holding my breath that the bulk of it will make it into the actual game... but will instead be mentioned later in the "making of" content. But FF7 has always had that problem, so I'm kinda expecting it at this point.

 

[abigail]

Oh, yeah. I didn't think you were predicting that Yuffie or Wutai would be cut. and I do see how it doesn't have push on the main plot.

I was jut voicing my opinion of Yuffie. partly because of how unpopular I've seen her be.

After seeing how Midgar was expanding. I'm looking forward to a similar elaboration of the Wutai war and Wutai itself

 

[FFShinra]

I do hope that the existence of Kyrie implies Yuffie is gonna be different from the OG. I couldn't stand her in that game, even when I'm fine with her in other works.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think she'll be the same but a little toned down and more subtle.

 

[waw]

I do hope that the existence of Kyrie implies Yuffie is gonna be different from the OG. I couldn't stand her in that game, even when I'm fine with her in other works.

Why would Kyrie make Yuffie different? Just young-thief chicks?

 

[Clement Rage]

I would hesitate to draw too many historical parallels. What tends to happen is readers draw on whatever history is most relevant to them personally, and assume what's relevant to them is relevant to the author. That's how Yuffie's characterisation gets flipped in many people's minds.

'Big Corporation with military pretensions' isn't that uncommon, but it means very different things in different parts of the world. It would be a mistake to nail it to one. Are we talking Cecil Rhodes? Dutch East India? A zaibatsu? A US oil baron? All of the above? None of them? Caution here is important, because what's important to you may not be what's important to the creators.

I was thinking in terms of WW1, where the defeated German Empire signed a treaty on the defeat of their army, but was allowed to stay unoccupied as long as it doesn't rearm. That doesn't mean they weren't militarily defeated. But is that because it's applicable or because it's the part of history I know about? It's worth being careful.

It might not be worth building a reactor, because rogue ninjas would be able to destroy it too easily.

Diving head first into detailed histories would be a huge mistake for the devs. They could not possibly do it convincingly, and if they did it would be too long and complicated and the broad fandom would just yell at them for wasting time.

On a two thousand mile long front, SOLDIER can't accomplish that much, no matter how powerful they are toe to toe.

The US could have pulped Vietnam, but they stayed on the defensive rather than risk going to war with China.

 

[Chocobo Eater]

From OtWtaS, Episode: Yuffie:

The pair [Yuffie and Yuri] left Wutai behind them and headed south to a region known for its materia caves. Shinra had once planned to build a mako reactor there, but locals protested, and it ended up in bitter fighting. Still, the fact that Shinra chose that location for a reactor could mean only one thing—that the Lifestream flow was strong there.

Pretty sure "Wutai" in this context refers to the town (Wutai Village?) and not the nation, so the cave Yuffie traveled to is still part of Wutai, the nation. We don't know if the "bitter fighting" was part of the Wutai War and there's no mention of Shinra actually building the reactor. But there is definitely mako in Wutai, at least in the southern region.

 

[Eerie]

I still think Wutai is up for a big overhaul. Yeah it could be all lies and we discover it's just a tourist destination now but... I doubt this. Who's going to vacation in Wutai if the idea is that it's very unstable?

I still think that this time around we'll get Yuffie in Wutai. Especially because Red XIII wasn't playable, so we need to get the hang of him first before getting her. I also wonder where the part 2 will stop - I need to re-study that because it looks to me that they're heading towards an at least 4 parts of the game, which would allow them to really expand on Wutai, as I expect they want to.