Yuffie & Wutai — Where does it happen?

[X-SOLDIER]

Oh yeah, I love the idea of having the Ultimate Weapon/Limit Break stuff being some cool story sidequests, not having to be part of the main story but hopefully some nice story moments regardless.
As for Nanaki's being attached to Lost Number, I wondered if it was done that way because of the original ideas of having more of his race as Hojo experiments, and since it was scrapped, the weapon (it was a weapon, right?) was attached to Lost Number instead. Maybe.

Also sorry, I can't actually add anything relevant to the actual thread title, I've only played VII twice and can't accurately think of a good place to put the Wutai stuff.

Nanaki's Ultimate Limit is what you get from Lost Number in the safe, which just makes no goddamn sense, even if he WAS just one of Hojo's experiments, since what exactly Lost Number was isn't clear AND Nanaki's history of experimentation isn't ever linked to the Shinra Mansion. (Also, going back to Cosmo Canyon and chatting with his grandfather is what nets you his weapon).

Additionally, I think that the idea that Cloud essentially learns Omnislash from a slot machine should PROBABLY be adjusted somewhat, although I do like the idea that he learns it from doing trials in Battle Square, where "The Brave Don't Fear The Grave" xD

But yeah, insofar as Yuffie's stuff, I think that putting Wutai as a story quest between Rocket Town and hunting down the key for the Temple of the Ancients is a solid place for it, and once that's completed, it opens up the Quest to complete the Pagoda at your own leisure.





X

 

[Clement Rage]

For what it's worth I did entirely miss Gongaga my first playthrough.

Yuffie's probably not going to be optional, but Wutai? Honestly, I think it could be better left as an option, it adds to the worldbuilding a bit when things are happening that are not 100pc mandatory, feels less 'scripted' that this is how events play out.

Nanaki's goal when you first meet him is to go home, he needs what happens in Cosmo Canyon to give him a reason to stay in the party past it. There's also development for Aeris, Barret, and Tifa in that town. Wutai, not so much.

If you treat Yuffie like a canon party member rather than an optional party member, her story in Wutai holds equally as much weight in terms of the overall narrative that Cosmo Canyon holds for Nanaki and the party.

She joins up with you for the sole purpose of obtaining Materia to try to help out her hometown that's been reduced into a tourist trap after the war with Shinra, and she only wants to help to restore it to its former glory. When she's close enough to attempt that, she does (much like Nanaki leaving to stay in his own hometown). It's only after Don Corneo captures her, and you help her out that she acquiesces and gives the Materia back, and then only after going up against the other tower guards and her own Father (much like Red journeying through the Caves of the Gi to learn the fate of his Father) does she get a greater sense of purpose and being a sort of leader for her people and does Godo request that Cloud allow her to remain with the party.

The whole conclusion of the Don Corneo arc serves as a satisfying development for Aeris, Tifa, & Cloud overcoming one unresolved arc they started together – and also builds their connection with Yuffie. On top of that, it opens up a different relationship for the party with the Turks on vacation, by placing Elena in danger and showing them actively ignoring you and juxtaposed against Don Corneo being a complete piece of garbage. While that also serves as development for them (and they're important from a Compilation perspective), but importantly, it helps to establish a sort of moral ambiguity of Shinra employees rather than the pure, unforgivable, evil mass-murderers they'd been before. That's important to help provide a bit more depth to Cait Sith's upcoming betrayal and re-joining as a double agent, and also Tseng's severe injury to start to paint a different picture where you seemingly team up with Rufus in the North Crater to take on Sephiroth when Cloud goes crazy (before the whole Tifa public execution to save face ruins all of that all over again).

So yeah.

I think when you look at Yuffie as being a party member with as much canon status in the group as Nanaki, it's clear that Wutai has a LOT of content that applies to her, the team, and also the story that, for the Remake, adds in a ton to the coherence and development equivalent to what they get in Cosmo Canyon, and that's why I think that, like Yuffie herself, it's not the sort of thing that should be optional content when they're retelling the story.



Also, FWIW all of this is coming from seeing all the story again while having my girlfriend play FFVII the first time, and looking at the developments that she gets a big amount of story and context from. Her reaching Gongaga was a big part that she latched on to (I had her bring Tifa & Aeris into town), and we put off Wutai until just before the Underwater Reactor, and this is a lot of feedback from the order of things for how things feel doing it in a place that feels like very after-the-fact, and why I don't think it works as optional content to be done sort of whenever.

X

Yeah, but the thing is, Red's entire goal when you first meet him is just to go home, it doesn't make sense for him not to.And when he gets home, something has to change his mind to keep him travelling with you. Yuffie's goals don't really change, she's still after materia, you're just learning more about why.

Actually, Wutai made me regard the Turks as more evil than I did before, as it establishes that they're happy to sit and watch Shinra soldiers die rather than give up like two hours of vacation time. I was like 'Wow, they don't even have loyalty to their own company. These guys are dicks.'
It's also a big part of why I like Elena more than the rest.

I dunno, personally, I think it adds something to the worldbuilding when something isn't mandatory to do or perfectly tied in to the main plot. Real worlds are messy, and having a huge chunk of story that can be entirely missed can add something when you find it. 'Oh wow, this was here all along!'

Mass Effect, for instance, is a big world, but in the third game, when everything I'd ever done started turning up again and being solved, it genuinely felt implausible to me when Shepard

Spoiler

ended like three genocidal wars one speech at a time

When everything that happens ties up into a neat little bow, I start thinking 'that's not a real world'.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Yeah, but the thing is, Red's entire goal when you first meet him is just to go home, it doesn't make sense for him not to.And when he gets home, something has to change his mind to keep him travelling with you. Yuffie's goals don't really change, she's still after materia, you're just learning more about why.

Well, her goal is to obtain a bunch of materia and take it home – and she does that when you land on the island/continent, abandoning the party just like Red does. So when you get geographically close enough to her destination it doesn't make sense for her to stay with your party either, until you going after her and the encounter with Don Corneo changes her mind to have her give the materia she took back to you and re-join your party.

Again, it's in the same boat as Nanaki here insofar as having an initial character-driven goal to want to reach home and stay there to protect / improve it, and it takes a related quest of sorts to convince them to stay with Cloud & Co.

Actually, Wutai made me regard the Turks as more evil than I did before, as it establishes that they're happy to sit and watch Shinra soldiers die rather than give up like two hours of vacation time. I was like 'Wow, they don't even have loyalty to their own company. These guys are dicks.'
It's also a big part of why I like Elena more than the rest.

Interesting. I took a lot from the fact that they followed orders when monitored, so it was clearer that Reno dropping the plate was much less of something he felt compelled to do and more of a corporate order he was obligated to obey. That being said, I was more referring to the bit where they've been wantonly hunting you down, but openly ignore that you're there in front of them when they're off-duty, and also agree to work with you to get Elena back showing that they have personal loyalty, but only begrudging loyalty to Shinra.

I dunno, personally, I think it adds something to the worldbuilding when something isn't mandatory to do or perfectly tied in to the main plot. Real worlds are messy, and having a huge chunk of story that can be entirely missed can add something when you find it. 'Oh wow, this was here all along!'

That's assuming that these are the sorts of elements that make sense to appear in any order, because they're focused solely on world building and not limited to required roles within the narrative for the main story and the characters' journey through it.

In the case of Wutai, because it's involving the Turks being off mission and needed elsewhere ALSO means that it's time-limited to before 3rd disc, so the Materia Thief quest arguably already isn't just world building and is story specific. Take that compared to, say the Shinra Mansion flashback with Zack that can be done any time after Cloud gets his marbles re-sorted, and there's a clear difference between the two.

By the same token: In the Remake, should you and your party be able to just walk right past Cosmo Canyon and pick up Cid in Rocket Town and never have to deal with any of Nanaki's past? No. Because that doesn't make sense for the role that he plays in your party and what he would do if in that area – same with Yuffie.

The biggest point here is that for the canon party, there is a clear reason to treat all the characters and their own journeys as a party of the party equally.


(Skipping the Mass Effect stuff as I've never played any of those games and have zero frame of reference for making any relevant comparative or analytical statements on the matter).





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[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh yeah, I love the idea of having the Ultimate Weapon/Limit Break stuff being some cool story sidequests, not having to be part of the main story but hopefully some nice story moments regardless.
As for Nanaki's being attached to Lost Number, I wondered if it was done that way because of the original ideas of having more of his race as Hojo experiments, and since it was scrapped, the weapon (it was a weapon, right?) was attached to Lost Number instead. Maybe.

Also sorry, I can't actually add anything relevant to the actual thread title, I've only played VII twice and can't accurately think of a good place to put the Wutai stuff.

Nanaki's Ultimate Limit is what you get from Lost Number in the safe, which just makes no goddamn sense, even if he WAS just one of Hojo's experiments, since what exactly Lost Number was isn't clear AND Nanaki's history of experimentation isn't ever linked to the Shinra Mansion.

Red XIII
Lost Number

 

[Ite]

I understand your points X. I still disagree. FFs are interactive novels. If you don't decide to go to that long continent in the far west, even when you have several chances to, then you don't get to read that chapter of the story. If you lose the submarine and don't try to get another one, you don't get to read the Lucrecia chapter.

Spoon feeding all the story to the reader in a neat little canon isn't FFVII. It's an FFVII novel. With voice acting. Not interested.

Edit: Red XIII.
Lost Number
Solve for X
Lost X?
XIII without X
Half Life 3!!

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I understand your points X. I still disagree. FFs are interactive novels. If you don't decide to go to that long continent in the far west, even when you have several chances to, then you don't get to read that chapter of the story. If you lose the submarine and don't try to get another one, you don't get to read the Lucrecia chapter.

Spoon feeding all the story to the reader in a neat little canon isn't FFVII. It's an FFVII novel. With voice acting. Not interested.

Then by that same token, should your initial excursion through Cosmo Canyon & the Gi Caves be skippable in the Remake, so that Red never departs your party, and instead you are free to just go straight to Rocket Town? (Like I've pointed out, there's functionally no difference between Red's journey & development there & Yuffie's in Wutai).

Either way, from your perspective, how many parts of FFVII have any intrinsic "requirement" to be a Quest story vs. a Side Quest when looking at the Remake when you remove the, "it was laid out that way in the OG" stipulation, which doesn't intrinsically dictate that requirement in the Remake? While you don't want a FFVII novel, I don't want to walk through the exact same beats of the OG in HD, and am actually looking forward to a bit of reorganization in terms of telling the story.

When it comes to Quest vs Side Quest I am going to side with Tres here and say that FFXV has a good model for it: Anything specific to narrative development of the overarching plot and the characters are contained within the Story Quests and there's a natural progression to them, whereas auxiliary development are a part of Side Quests. Additionally, I'm wholly of the mind that Side Quests are something that can be done at ANY point during the game, because they're about world building and understanding, and they're not inherently limited to the involvement of other characters being in a set place and time that eventually won't be something you can take advantage of.

This is especially because (following through a strategy guide notwithstanding), there's no good way of telling a player "if you keep going, all these things are gonna get fucked and you'll never find them out without restarting" AND it over-emphasizes needless completionism to do EVERY SIDE QUEST IMMEDIATELY WHEN IT'S AVAILABLE, NO MATTER WHAT OR ELSE YOU MIGHT MISS OUT that takes away from being able to enjoy the story at a decent pace withou worrying about missing out on huge chunks of potentially relevant, potentially irrelevant information). Neither of those extreme designs are are positive things, and I really liked FFXV specifically because I was free to sidequest and story at my own pace without having to agonize over ensuring that I'd checked off every necessary box before proceeding.

In the example of Yuffie – for the game and even for her continued presence in the party, her bit as a Materia Thief is critical, because it shows her completing her initial objective and also finding a reason to be a part of the TEAM and not just a temporary travelling companion. Same with Red. He doesn't even both to give you his real NAME, and you only learn it upon hearing it second hand in Cosmo Canyon. Once he learns about his father's past, he gains motivation to join your quest rather than just wander by your side as an easy way to get back home. That's why I keep saying that they're functionally identical, and THOSE are the sorts of beats that are critical to FFVII's story, and why I think that they're absolutely necessary to BE its story in the Remake.

Juxtaposed against that, it doesn't REALLY matter whether or not Yuffie bests her dad in the Pagoda. You get development for her from it that serves solely to reinforce the motivation that she already got from the Materia Thief section (as well as a Final Limit Break and a new Summon Materia), but it's not intrinsic to her place in the story and is extra development, AND you can literally do it whenever.





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[The Twilight Mexican]

Here's a question: Assuming it remains optional, should the Wutai sidequest be reworked somehow to be available during the portion of the remake that serves as its equivalent to Disc 3?

Obviously as it was originally depicted, it wouldn't work with the overall plot (Shin-Ra has fallen by this point), and I'd argue it wouldn't work for Yuffie's characterization this late either (she's already made the choice to go with the others into the heart of the planet and die if need be).

 

[Clement Rage]

Note to self: Stop talking in references.

The big difference between Red and Yuffie is that Red has no other motivation to stay with the party unless he goes to his hometown. Yuffie does (materia, which stays constant through the game. We learn her backstory in Wutai, but it was always there, her motivations don't change, only our knowledge of them. She's still trying to trick you into giving her all the materia in disc 3.)She didn't have a revelation about how she was part of the team, she just got caught and knew she wouldn't get away with pulling that again.

This is especially because (following through a strategy guide notwithstanding), there's no good way of telling a player "if you keep going, all these things are gonna get fucked and you'll never find them out without restarting" AND it over-emphasizes needless completionism to do EVERY SIDE QUEST IMMEDIATELY WHEN IT'S AVAILABLE, NO MATTER WHAT OR ELSE YOU MIGHT MISS OUT that takes away from being able to enjoy the story at a decent pace without worrying about missing out on huge chunks of potentially relevant, potentially irrelevant information).

This is where multiple save files come in.

Interesting. I took a lot from the fact that they followed orders when monitored, so it was clearer that Reno dropping the plate was much less of something he felt compelled to do and more of a corporate order he was obligated to obey. That being said, I was more referring to the bit where they've been wantonly hunting you down, but openly ignore that you're there in front of them when they're off-duty, and also agree to work with you to get Elena back showing that they have personal loyalty, but only begrudging loyalty to Shinra.

If that was true, they would have been moved by being threatened by Soldier 342 "Don't think that headquarters won't be hearing about this."

The lack of loyalty to anything but each other makes sector 7 look like something Reno just didn't care enough about not to do it, given that they're willing to duck out of their orders if they really don't want to do it.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

The big difference between Red and Yuffie is that Red has no other motivation to stay with the party unless he goes to his hometown. Yuffie does (materia, which stays constant through the game. We learn her backstory in Wutai, but it was always there, her motivations don't change, only our knowledge of them. She's still trying to trick you into giving her all the materia in disc 3.)She didn't have a revelation about how she was part of the team, she just got caught and knew she wouldn't get away with pulling that again.

Yuffie has no motivation to stay with the party either, because so long as she has any way to get home, she could jack all your materia and vanish at literally any time. It's really just contained to the event in the west continent for game mechanic purposes, because suddenly having you lose a party member at random along with all your materia is SUPER lame and potentially game-breaking.

At the end of the Materia Thief arc, Yuffie brings you back to her place and gives you all the stolen materia back AND she even voluntarily gives you her own materia to use. She places more value on you having it now than the quick sort of smash-and-grab she was attempting before. Yes, she IS still wanting to get all of the materia from you in the long run, but that just goes to the core of the fact that she still ultimately needs it to help bring Wutai back to what it used to be and even though she's putting that off to continue to help you hunt down Sephiroth and everything else after you save her, that doesn't suddenly also bring Wutai back to its former glory. Even her dad at the Pagoda asks her to:

"Yuffie, wait a minute. The Materia they all have... After their battle is over, you think they'll still want it? Go! Survive till the end! And return! With the Materia!"

Yuffie's objective changes from, "jack all the materia possible from these chumps and get back home" to "actively help these guys out to complete their objective and once it's all over, get the materia from them that they no longer need to rebuild Wutai"

Nanaki's journey goes from "I need to go protect my hometown because my father was a wastrel" to "I'll help try to save the planet and prove myself as a true warrior like my Father did"

Both of them have an arc where they take singularly selfish motivations, and then take self-improvement motivation and place the needs of the bigger picture first. Also, in the case of both of them (and to address Tres' point) this REALLY only holds the same sort of weight before there's a gigantic meteor in the sky letting you know the undeniable importance of the journey that Cloud & Co. are on, back when it's still just relegated to hunting down Sephiroth – again, why I think it's important to portray it as the core story, rather than throw-away side content.

This is especially because (following through a strategy guide notwithstanding), there's no good way of telling a player "if you keep going, all these things are gonna get fucked and you'll never find them out without restarting" AND it over-emphasizes needless completionism to do EVERY SIDE QUEST IMMEDIATELY WHEN IT'S AVAILABLE, NO MATTER WHAT OR ELSE YOU MIGHT MISS OUT that takes away from being able to enjoy the story at a decent pace without worrying about missing out on huge chunks of potentially relevant, potentially irrelevant information).

This is where multiple save files come in.

Sorry, but no.

I don't know if you realize how elitist that sounds. Essentially you're saying that even if the game could take 60-80 hours to play through, the COMPLETE story should only be understandable to those willing to arbitrarily figure out through a mix of trial-and-error save and load, obsessive completionism, or walking through a strategy guide what order to go through every optional part of the game as meticulously as possible, rather than relying on the game to have a well-planned and laid out narrative structure with its story content laid out end-to-end, with auxiliary content clearly marked as such.

Nothing breaks immersion more than suddenly reverting back X hours to go do things differently because you suddenly realized that you missed out on story content. (Hell, even my brother and I still have never forgiven FFIX for destroying nearly every sidequest on its final disc). On top of that, no one wants to be forced to into going and doing every single little meticulous thing on the off-chance that it might matter at the expense of continuing the story at a natural pace. When basically every open world game can manage to tell a coherent story with "Story Quests" and "Side Quests" there's really no excuse for that sort of absolutely piss-poor mechanic anymore.

Again – Most of this is coming from the fact that my girlfriend had never played a Final Fantasy game before watching me play through FFXV and she absolutely loved it, and I've been helping her walk through FFVII the last month or so, and realizing that – if you don't already know all of this shit from 20 years of obsessively dissecting the game, what an absolute fucking ballache it is to make sure that you're getting all of the right background elements and preemptive information to understand what is an already convoluted and confusing as fuck story (since the whole first section is being told by a crazy person).

If that was true, they would have been moved by being threatened by Soldier 342 "Don't think that headquarters won't be hearing about this."

The lack of loyalty to anything but each other makes sector 7 look like something Reno just didn't care enough about not to do it, given that they're willing to duck out of their orders if they really don't want to do it.

No way. MPs get knocked around by literally everyone. They're the grunts of the organization. Some nameless MP threatening to report them for not doing something when they're off duty is essentially meaningless because that person has ZERO clout in Shinra's organization – especially compared to the Turks. It's basically an empty threat that they might get a slap on the wrist. If Heideggar or someone was there, not only does he actually outrank them in terms of command (and could put them back on active duty with a word) – he has the power to turn the entirety of the Shinra military on them if they don't play ball. (Which is even more clear after seeing what happened when Zack ditched out and that literally happened).

Collapsing the Plate was a direct order from the President, who is their Commander in Chief. It's in no way comparable to some grunt who they outrank telling them they need to help when they're off duty.





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[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't know if you realize how elitist that sounds. Essentially you're saying that even if the game could take 60-80 hours to play through, the COMPLETE story should only be understandable to those willing to arbitrarily figure out through a mix of trial-and-error save and load, obsessive completionism, or walking through a strategy guide what order to go through every optional part of the game as meticulously as possible, rather than relying on the game to have a well-planned and laid out narrative structure with its story content laid out end-to-end, with auxiliary content clearly marked as such.

Nothing breaks immersion more than suddenly reverting back X hours to go do things differently because you suddenly realized that you missed out on story content. (Hell, even my brother and I still have never forgiven FFIX for destroying nearly every sidequest on its final disc). On top of that, no one wants to be forced to into going and doing every single little meticulous thing on the off-chance that it might matter at the expense of continuing the story at a natural pace. When basically every open world game can manage to tell a coherent story with "Story Quests" and "Side Quests" there's really no excuse for that sort of absolutely piss-poor mechanic anymore.

While I do appreciate this sentiment, when in recent memory has FF ever really conformed to it? Since at least FFVI, there has been stuff you could miss and never have an opportunity to learn about again (flashback with the Figaro brothers, explanation for Kefka's crazy, possibly other stuff I'm forgetting). X-2 is probably the best example of the need to play the way you described, but even in others, there would be occasions where I would say to myself "I feel like I need to load up my last save and do that differently."

In FFXV, there's mandatory exchanges that make no sense without having seen optional exchanges. In XIII, there's an optional scene referenced early in Vanille's mandatory narration.

And I challenge anyone to tell me they fully -- or even halfway -- got FFVIII the first time. =P

 

[Clement Rage]

I don't know if you realize how elitist that sounds. Essentially you're saying that even if the game could take 60-80 hours to play through, the COMPLETE story should only be understandable to those willing to arbitrarily figure out through a mix of trial-and-error save and load, obsessive completionism, or walking through a strategy guide what order to go through every optional part of the game as meticulously as possible, rather than relying on the game to have a well-planned and laid out narrative structure with its story content laid out end-to-end, with auxiliary content clearly marked as such.

Nothing breaks immersion more than suddenly reverting back X hours to go do things differently because you suddenly realized that you missed out on story content. (Hell, even my brother and I still have never forgiven FFIX for destroying nearly every sidequest on its final disc). On top of that, no one wants to be forced to into going and doing every single little meticulous thing on the off-chance that it might matter at the expense of continuing the story at a natural pace. When basically every open world game can manage to tell a coherent story with "Story Quests" and "Side Quests" there's really no excuse for that sort of absolutely piss-poor mechanic anymore.

Uhh...okay, obviously this means a lot to you, given your experiences. I'm not trying to be elitist, or looking down on gamers that aren't completionist, or those that are, or anyone else. I like to play as much story as I can, but I don't bother if it's too inconvenient (I ignore the riddler in Arkham games, didn't do the 'kill every monster' quest in 13-2 or Lightning Returns, because It would take too long. I am not jeering at anyone's playstyle. I replay sometimes, but I very rarely 100pc any given game. I'm not saying everyone should have dozens of saves for every game they play or

I think it might be that I think failure and mistakes can add to the experience of playing a game. Losing Morrid in disc 4 is annoying, but I also end up thinking 'shit, I could have done that differently, dammit', which isn't me complaining about the game, it's just my regretting my choices and feeling responsible for them. Which isn't necessarily such a bad thing, for me at least. Is it such a unique viewpoint to think the opportunity to miss things isn't a flaw in the game? Maybe you're right, I don't know.

Collapsing the Plate was a direct order from the President, who is their Commander in Chief. It's in no way comparable to some grunt who they outrank telling them they need to help when they're off duty.

It was from Heidegger, who they have been shown elsewhere to be willing to ignore if it suits them. Hell, quite a lot of their screentime is devoted to wriggling out of or defying orders they don't like.

 

[Ite]

Chrono Trigger has multiple endings, would a remake need a canon ending? It's a roleplaying game, an interactive story. I don't see why its elitist to have parts of the story only available for those who put the time in to discover it. It's like a secret level in Mario, except, the main function of an FF is story, not platforming, so it makes sense that the "secret levels" are an expanded lore (Vincent) and world (Yuffie). Two secret characters, each with their own plotline that's interesting and contributes to the whole. I don't think either are necessary to understand the main story at all, because while it adds wonderful details (the Lucrecia story is a game-changer for sure) they aren't required to make sense of the story as it exists for the characters who aren't secret.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Chrono Trigger has multiple endings, would a remake need a canon ending?

Yes.

For that matter, CT still had a pretty obvious canon ending overall with some ambiguity on a few smaller details, even before "Radical Dreamers" or "Chrono Cross" came along to verify things (including some of those smaller details).