SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Maidenofwar]

People have to accept CA will always have romantic trappings and SE will always show homage to it (and ZA, CT), it's part of the story, and their character development. SE respects that, and sees the vision. They are proud of their work and want people to see it on a mass scale (game awards, their channel, etc) It's beautifully presented. They're not going to stop giving CAs all kinds of food including EC or treating Aerith like their poster girl (like Terra is VI poster girl) They love her. The same goes for other characters and pairs.

Sorry if this is coming across as harsh or anything, I just don't want people to be feeling down or defeatist at all Don't mean here but there's no need for bitterness over Aerith shining rn, Rebirth, Briana. The last thing SE wants is people to be miserable.

I think they will always show their works tenderness and respect. I don't know, they're not going to just not show things.

 

[Skilganon]

The song is not a love song, it’s a song about people Aerith deeply cares about. If it was a love song it would be pretty awful during the CT GS date with her singing while Cloud and Tifa hold hands.

Nobuo Uematsu and Loren Alred both called NPTK a lovesong. Nojima wrote the lyrics and Uematsu composed the melody, so I don't know who's the ultimate authority on whether it's a love song.

IMO, what made the love triangle work in the OG was that you didn't know how the characters felt exactly. It's hard to make 12 polygons express emotion, so all we have is the text(poorly translated) and the music. No one was singing ballads to each other. Aerith was very forward at times, but the way the party system worked, you may miss most of those story moments.

I find it weird that Aerith's big send-off number in Rebirth is a song directed at a guy who we know is probably going to end up with another woman. Cloud acts coy and evasive toward Aerith, so we don't know if he reciprocates these feelings. You can even hold hands with Tifa while Aerith is singing. Then it plays Tifa's theme when the audience is Aplauding Aerith.

Then there's the name of the song, No Promises to Keep. It seems to directly contrast Cloud and Tifa's relationship, as if Aerith is trying to write a subtle take-down of Tifa (Not saying this is the case, just an easy interpretation). I find it hard to believe that wasn't intentional on the part of the developers.

It's not necessarily the story events in themselves, it's the expectations they create. All those theories about Cloud searching for Aerith post-og sound more plausible when we have Aerith singing "Some day I hope you'll come and find me." "Till the day we meet again" and all that. These are theories people in this forum are always shooting down.

Now if part 3 follows the OG, at least in terms of romance, NPTK is going to seem extremely odd if you examine the trilogy as a whole. People invested in the CA pairing will feel cheated. LIke all that build-up went nowhere. This is why I call it a misdirection.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Nobuo Uematsu and Loren Alred both called NPTK a lovesong. Nojima wrote the lyrics and Uematsu composed the melody, so I don't know who's the ultimate authority on whether it's a love song.

IMO, what made the love triangle work in the OG was that you didn't know how the characters felt exactly. It's hard to make 12 polygons express emotion, so all we have is the text(poorly translated) and the music. No one was singing ballads to each other. Aerith was very forward at times, but the way the party system worked, you may miss most of those story moments.

I find it weird that Aerith's big send-off number in Rebirth is a song directed at a guy who we know is probably going to end up with another woman. Cloud acts coy and evasive toward Aerith, so we don't know if he reciprocates these feelings. You can even hold hands with Tifa while Aerith is singing. Then it plays Tifa's theme when the audience is Aplauding Aerith.

Then there's the name of the song, No Promises to Keep. It seems to directly contrast Cloud and Tifa's relationship, as if Aerith is trying to write a subtle take-down of Tifa (Not saying this is the case, just an easy interpretation). I find it hard to believe that wasn't intentional on the part of the developers.

It's not necessarily the story events in themselves, it's the expectations they create. All those theories about Cloud searching for Aerith post-og sound more plausible when we have Aerith singing "Some day I hope you'll come and find me." "Till the day we meet again" and all that. These are theories people in this forum are always shooting down.

Now if part 3 follows the OG, at least in terms of romance, NPTK is going to seem extremely odd if you examine the trilogy as a whole. People invested in the CA pairing will feel cheated. LIke all that build-up went nowhere. This is why I call it a misdirection.

Anyone with more musical knowledge, please correct me, but I do think we have to keep in mind that there’s two meaning to “writing a song”

There is the lyrics and there is the musical notes. Nojima wrote the lyrics, Uematsu wrote the musical notes. Uematsu’s commentary is more about how he approached writing the music, the tone and feeling he was aiming for. Love ballads are a category, but I’m very unqualified to define what makes a song one.

Nojima, who wrote the lyrics, should take priority when talking about the lyrics. The reason is kind of obvious, and I wouldn’t know why he’d bother clarifying if his goal was to avoid backlash from fans. So yeah, NPTK isn’t about Cloud exclusively, it’s about everyone who shares a bond with Aerith.

Funny, looking at NPTK and Hollow, all I see are two songs written about two people who don’t deal well with loss and loneliness. Cloud, who clings to bonds so tightly that losing them feels like he’s lost a piece of himself, and Aerith who wants very much to form bonds and spend as much time as she possibly can with them.

To me, this is why Nojima wants to clarify what they’re about. Part 3’s song will likely be the same, about more than just one bond/ship or whatever, but it will play at very deliberate times.

 

[abzy1200]

Then there's the name of the song, No Promises to Keep. It seems to directly contrast Cloud and Tifa's relationship, as if Aerith is trying to write a subtle take-down of Tifa (Not saying this is the case, just an easy interpretation). I find it hard to believe that wasn't intentional on the part of the developers.

It's not necessarily the story events in themselves, it's the expectations they create. All those theories about Cloud searching for Aerith post-og sound more plausible when we have Aerith singing "Some day I hope you'll come and find me." "Till the day we meet again" and all that. These are theories people in this forum are always shooting down.

That's something else with the song, for a song written entirely by a character in-universe, it feels oddly aware of things Aerith shouldn't be aware of (I think?)

Not necessarily that I think it's a subtle dig at Tifa, because it couldn't be, of course. But that's part of the reason why I think the whole song feels a bit odd...

 

[Eerie]

I find it weird that Aerith's big send-off number in Rebirth is a song directed at a guy who we know is probably going to end up with another woman.

Because it's not. It's about her and everyone she loves. And it makes Aerith a better character. If it was only aimed at Cloud, it would be off-putting, I hope people realise this. But it's not. Nojima is the writer, he is the one to explain the lyrics he wrote, his saying supercedes every other interpretation. And his interpretation makes Aerith a better character so I don't know why people cling to the one that makes her looking rather dubious.

Cloud acts coy and evasive toward Aerith, so we don't know if he reciprocates these feelings.

She is his nakama. He tells her so and that's the length of his feelings to her. She is a precious person to him but it's not romantic. He only loves romantically one girl and it's Tifa - like hell he already almost confessed to her in Gongaga lol. Like if he loved Aerith, there would be no need for Tifa, I hope you all realise they created her to be the true love interest. The LSS tells as much, every other book Nojima writes pushes CT so very much, ACC declares he feels guilt towards Aerith. He meets her yet he doesn't profess his love for her there. And he's happy to see Zack and Aerith reunited and puts Zack's sword in the church.

I really don't know what there is to discuss, the ships have sailed decades ago.

Then there's the name of the song, No Promises to Keep. It seems to directly contrast Cloud and Tifa's relationship, as if Aerith is trying to write a subtle take-down of Tifa

That, I will agree but I don't think it's a jab because she made a promise to Zack and waited 5 YEARS. She wants to be free of promises, but in the end this is a Square Enix Final Fantasy game, and romantic promises are important - and she dies without one. This song is sad af.

 

[Ryeleigh]

She is his nakama. He tells her so and that's the length of his feelings to her. She is a precious person to him but it's not romantic. He only loves romantically one girl and it's Tifa - like hell he already almost confessed to her in Gongaga lol. Like if he loved Aerith, there would be no need for Tifa, I hope you all realise they created her to be the true love interest. The LSS tells as much, every other book Nojima writes pushes CT so very much, ACC declares he feels guilt towards Aerith. He meets her yet he doesn't profess his love for her there. And he's happy to see Zack and Aerith reunited and puts Zack's sword in the church.

I really don't know what there is to discuss, the ships have sailed decades ago.

You know, I've asked this before but I still don't quite get what Cloud having specifically romantic feelings for Aerith would add to the story? Aerith's romantic feelings for Cloud were always a part of her character arc, initially born of her longing for Zack and I don't think she started to untangle that until the Gold Saucer date. But Cloud's story arc would become: has feelings for Tifa until 14, leaves to become a SOLDIER because of those feelings for her, comes back at 16 and still has feelings for her, spends 5 years comatose, and wakes up from that because of his feelings for Tifa. But all of that supposedly gets overridden by the two weeks he spends with Aerith who herself is mostly and perhaps largely unconsciously searching for her dead boyfriend, and after her death Cloud declares that only Tifa's opinion matters and loses himself because he thinks Tifa's faith in him wavered. After that Tifa and Cloud find the real him in his subconscious who is all tangled up in his feelings for Tifa, basically the raison d'être of his story arc, and they spend their seemingly last night on earth together. (I hope I remembered everything correctly, lol. It's been a while.)

And yeah, you can say that it's realistic for people to have romantic feelings for multiple people at once but... They're not real. They're fictional characters serving specific purposes. So what would Cloud having specifically romantic feelings for Aerith add to his story arc aside from wanting to be fair to Aerith just because she has them for him?

 

[Ahkseum]

Nobuo Uematsu and Loren Alred both called NPTK a lovesong. Nojima wrote the lyrics and Uematsu composed the melody, so I don't know who's the ultimate authority on whether it's a love song.

It's Nojima. Nojima is the lead scenario writer. What that means is that he is ultimately in charge of all the writing for the story.

Nojima would win this argument, even if he didnt write the lyrics for the song, merely for the fact that he is in charge of the story. The fact that he wrote the lyrics personally is just a nail in the coffin.

 

[Ryushikaze]

As Maiden said, even though Cloti and Zerith's positions are more or less safe for part 3, CA is still kinda getting recognition, so assuming they stick to their words, what exactly is the end goal here. World's biggest troll?

Even if part 3 does give a solid conclusion the whole fiasco, they've still given CA a bunch of stuff that could be read as romantic, and lends itself as evidence that there is isn't a concrete answer, subsequently continuing to perpetuate the ambiguity. So I don't know why they bother saying stuff like this. It's exasperating.

They have made Cloud's feelings for Tifa much clearer and easier to see much earlier. Remember that FF7 is partly a mystery for the new players, and we are not yet to the point of the reveal. You're keeping an eye on the shell game to find the pretty lady right now while FF7 has been metaphorically picking your pocket. It's the nature of the misdirect.

You know, I've asked this before but I still don't quite get what Cloud having specifically romantic feelings for Aerith would add to the story? Aerith's romantic feelings for Cloud were always a part of her character arc, initially born of her longing for Zack and I don't think she started to untangle that until the Gold Saucer date. But Cloud's story arc would become: has feelings for Tifa until 14, leaves to become a SOLDIER because of those feelings for her, comes back at 16 and still has feelings for her, spends 5 years comatose, and wakes up from that because of his feelings for Tifa. But all of that supposedly gets overridden by the two weeks he spends with Aerith who herself is mostly and perhaps largely unconsciously searching for her dead boyfriend, and after her death Cloud declares that only Tifa's opinion matters and loses himself because he thinks Tifa's faith in him wavered. After that Tifa and Cloud find the real him in his subconscious who is all tangled up in his feelings for Tifa, basically the raison d'être of his story arc, and they spend their seemingly last night on earth together. (I hope I remembered everything correctly, lol. It's been a while.)

And yeah, you can say that it's realistic for people to have romantic feelings for multiple people at once but... They're not real. They're fictional characters serving specific purposes. So what would Cloud having specifically romantic feelings for Aerith add to his story arc aside from wanting to be fair to Aerith just because she has them for him?

It doesn't add anything to his story, and even the people pushing for Cloud having feelings for Aerith argue for it as regards her narrative, not his. His narrative is about self realization and self forgiveness so he can enjoy what he already has. Cloud's problem is one of not feeling he is good enough to be allowed to enjoy his life without self improvement, of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good (but only as regards himself).

That's something else with the song, for a song written entirely by a character in-universe, it feels oddly aware of things Aerith shouldn't be aware of (I think?)

Not necessarily that I think it's a subtle dig at Tifa, because it couldn't be, of course. But that's part of the reason why I think the whole song feels a bit odd...

Well, it wasn't supposed to be in character until very late in development, so there's that.

 

[lyingbanana]

You know, I've asked this before but I still don't quite get what Cloud having specifically romantic feelings for Aerith would add to the story? Aerith's romantic feelings for Cloud were always a part of her character arc, initially born of her longing for Zack and I don't think she started to untangle that until the Gold Saucer date. But Cloud's story arc would become: has feelings for Tifa until 14, leaves to become a SOLDIER because of those feelings for her, comes back at 16 and still has feelings for her, spends 5 years comatose, and wakes up from that because of his feelings for Tifa. But all of that supposedly gets overridden by the two weeks he spends with Aerith who herself is mostly and perhaps largely unconsciously searching for her dead boyfriend, and after her death Cloud declares that only Tifa's opinion matters and loses himself because he thinks Tifa's faith in him wavered. After that Tifa and Cloud find the real him in his subconscious who is all tangled up in his feelings for Tifa, basically the raison d'être of his story arc, and they spend their seemingly last night on earth together. (I hope I remembered everything correctly, lol. It's been a while.)

And yeah, you can say that it's realistic for people to have romantic feelings for multiple people at once but... They're not real. They're fictional characters serving specific purposes. So what would Cloud having specifically romantic feelings for Aerith add to his story arc aside from wanting to be fair to Aerith just because she has them for him?

Before I start I'd like to properly say hello, big lurker here!

I've thought about that before what does the romance add to the story, because ultimately every part of it should serve a purpose to tell a good story.

Anyways, I like the idea cleriths have for a Cloud and Aerith romance if I analyze it in a vacum. (And this is perhaps analyzing it from the perspective of the most hardcore fans of the pairing)
Two people who simply fall in love but cant be together bc she dies. Its very basic but sweet and tragic, we have seen stories like that work.
But add to that a character like Tifa and Zack respectively to each of their stories and the simple romance starts to fall apart really quick and leaves more plotholes than it fills.

You listed the ways Tifa as a character serves as a motivator to Cloud's story. So I ask (not particularly directed at you but to anyone who might have an answer) in what way does Aerith motivates or pushes Cloud's story?
To clarify, not FF7's story but Cloud as a character, because I do not wish to diminish her importance as a character in the overall story. She is of the utmost importance.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Before I start I'd like to properly say hello, big lurker here!

I've thought about that before what does the romance add to the story, because ultimately every part of it should serve a purpose to tell a good story.

Anyways, I like the idea cleriths have for a Cloud and Aerith romance if I analyze it in a vacum. (And this is perhaps analyzing it from the perspective of the most hardcore fans of the pairing)
Two people who simply fall in love but cant be together bc she dies. Its very basic but sweet and tragic, we have seen stories like that work.
But add to that a character like Tifa and Zack respectively to each of their stories and the simple romance starts to fall apart really quick and leaves more plotholes than it fills.

You listed the ways Tifa as a character serves as a motivator to Cloud's story. So I ask (not particularly directed at you but to anyone who might have an answer) in what way does Aerith motivates or pushes Cloud's story?
To clarify, not FF7's story but Cloud as a character, because I do not wish to diminish her importance as a character in the overall story. She is of the utmost importance.

Hello, first of all! Glad you decided to hop in the discussion.

From what I can tell from ReTrilogy, Aerith plays a pivotal role in teaching Cloud how to express tenderness towards others. In Remake, Cloud came off aloof, rude, no-nonsense. His journey to “lighten up” started with Avalanche, but I’d argue Aerith quickly picked up the mantle.

Out of everyone in the party, Aerith is the odd one out because aside from her lineage, she’s an otherwise normal person. No combat training, no more than innate talent at magic, no unique knowledge outside of whatever whispers have going on, etc

Cloud’s growth as a caring friend is impressive once you remember how “too cool” he was to even call Wedge his bro. Now, he can easily admit he considers Aerith a friend, and that growth radiates outwards to everyone (hence the GS Dates). He’s still got a ways to go, but he’s made progress.

As the guy who is convinced this trilogy is putting Aerith in proximity to the concepts of motherhood and Claudia for a deliberate reason, I’ll add that I think Aerith fills the role that some would generally attribute to a mother and her son: she teaches him empathy.

Look back over Aerith’s conversations with Cloud about Tifa. Doesn’t the tone feel like how a mom may try to talk to their own kid? It sometimes came off like that to me, and the pieces started falling into place, but that’s just my read.

 

[Chaoticgumbo]

I have been in the LTD scene for quite a while now and I'll start off by saying the obvious which has already been stated multiple times: the Remake project clearly pushes Cloud x Tifa to be the canon couple (devs are now doing this in media form instead of just putting in texts at ultimania pages). The next paragraph is more my restrospection and simply my own personal thoughts from being in the fandom during its infancy when FFVII just came out. I want to emphasize that this is 100% opinion and is not meant to offend any one side.

I feel that the love triangle has caused a divide in a way that the devs have likely not anticipated and are still facing the ramifications. During the creation of FFVII, lots of ideas were thrown around my multiple people and in the end, Nojima was brought in to fill in the missing pieces especially Cloud's mysterious past, introduced Zack as the key piece, and to create cohesion. When starting up the game, it is easy to see why players were drawn to the Cloud and Aerith dynamic. In an apocalyptic-like world where everything looks bleak and depressing, you have a hardened uncaring mercenary meeting a very lively spirited woman who imbues life wherever she goes and as they go on their adventure, they develop a strong attachment to each other. She also happens to be the last of her race and may be the key in saving humanity, including potentially saving the main hero who has grown close to her. When she meets her tragic fate at the arms of the hero, it is a gut wrenching moment and you as the player have a visceral reaction to the moment, feeling the emotions Cloud goes through. That moment creates a lasting impact to the player that will last throughout the rest of the game. Even if the story unravels later in the game including Cloud's illusion, his true past, and his true feelings (feelings no one can ever know), the impact has already been made to the player.

Now, enter Tifa (and Zack). Her story and her connection with Cloud throws an entire wrench to the Cloud and Aerith love story to the point they simply cannot work. Cloud's backstory and his motivation/feelings is directly connected to Tifa and vice versa. His clouded past can only be resolved by Tifa entering his most intimate thoughts which he normally shields like an iron fort EXCEPT for her because he has that much trust in her. They are connected by both past and present, she has been his muse from an early age, she is the only one that can bring him back from his idealized to his true self, and to keep him grounded. It reaches a level of intimacy Cloud and Aerith cannot match. To make Cloud x Aerith a thing after all of this would greatly dimish the value of Cloud and Tifa's story and only serves to hurt the characters involved. On the other hand, it does betray the feelings of the players who have already developed an attachment for the Cloud x Aerith ship which has admittedly been pushed by the devs during the 1st disc to create a reaction which unfortunately they will have to betray. Now, the feelings between the characters does not have to be romantic. However in media, romance is often the Magnus Opus of relationships between fictional characters, especially when they are classically setup to bring out such feelings.

I know I rambled on, but I wanted to put my thoughts out there before I lost them lol. In my opinion (I am putting myself open for attack here..), Cloud and Aerith maybe should have been reserved for FFVII (with story adjustments of course) and Tifa's concept should have been saved for the next FF game with a protagonist where memory, identity, and past connection to the heroine is more at the forefront. Of course, that can impact the legendary story of FFVII but maybe it would have been more fair. Or maybe not.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I have been in the LTD scene for quite a while now and I'll start off by saying the obvious which has already been stated multiple times: the Remake project clearly pushes Cloud x Tifa to be the canon couple (devs are now doing this in media form instead of just putting in texts at ultimania pages). The next paragraph is more my restrospection and simply my own personal thoughts from being in the fandom during its infancy when FFVII just came out. I want to emphasize that this is 100% opinion and is not meant to offend any one side.

I feel that the love triangle has caused a divide in a way that the devs have likely not anticipated and are still facing the ramifications. During the creation of FFVII, lots of ideas were thrown around my multiple people and in the end, Nojima was brought in to fill in the missing pieces especially Cloud's mysterious past, introduced Zack as the key piece, and to create cohesion. When starting up the game, it is easy to see why players were drawn to the Cloud and Aerith dynamic. In an apocalyptic-like world where everything looks bleak and depressing, you have a hardened uncaring mercenary meeting a very lively spirited woman who imbues life wherever she goes and as they go on their adventure, they develop a strong attachment to each other. She also happens to be the last of her race and may be the key in saving humanity, including potentially saving the main hero who has grown close to her. When she meets her tragic fate at the arms of the hero, it is a gut wrenching moment and you as the player have a visceral reaction to the moment, feeling the emotions Cloud goes through. That moment creates a lasting impact to the player that will last throughout the rest of the game. Even if the story unravels later in the game including Cloud's illusion, his true past, and his true feelings (feelings no one can ever know), the impact has already been made to the player.

Now, enter Tifa (and Zack). Her story and her connection with Cloud throws an entire wrench to the Cloud and Aerith love story to the point they simply cannot work. Cloud's backstory and his motivation/feelings is directly connected to Tifa and vice versa. His clouded past can only be resolved by Tifa entering his most intimate thoughts which he normally shields like an iron fort EXCEPT for her because he has that much trust in her. They are connected by both past and present, she has been his muse from an early age, she is the only one that can bring him back from his idealized to his true self, and to keep him grounded. It reaches a level of intimacy Cloud and Aerith cannot match. To make Cloud x Aerith a thing after all of this would greatly dimish the value of Cloud and Tifa's story and only serves to hurt the characters involved. On the other hand, it does betray the feelings of the players who have already developed an attachment for the Cloud x Aerith ship which has admittedly been pushed by the devs during the 1st disc to create a reaction which unfortunately they will have to betray. Now, the feelings between the characters does not have to be romantic. However in media, romance is often the Magnus Opus of relationships between fictional characters, especially when they are classically setup to bring out such feelings.

I know I rambled on, but I wanted to put my thoughts out there before I lost them lol. In my opinion (I am putting myself open for attack here..), Cloud and Aerith maybe should have been reserved for FFVII (with story adjustments of course) and Tifa's concept should have been saved for the next FF game with a protagonist where memory, identity, and past connection to the heroine is more at the forefront. Of course, that can impact the legendary story of FFVII but maybe it would have been more fair. Or maybe not.

I mean you say "with a protagonist where memory, identity and past connection to the heroine is at the forefront" but that IS FF7. FF7 is a game about Cloud's identity, his screwed up memories, and his connection to Tifa is the key to all that.
As for giving a CA style romance it's own game, in some ways that's FF8. as the grumpy man falls in love with the pushy woman, but Rinoa is honestly a mix of T and A's traits as if the proto-character had never been split off into them.

I think Lunafreya might be the closest love interest in terms of role, but her personality is all wrong for it.

Now I'm wondering if FF has done a romance that really maps onto CA very well. The character roles and personalities don't line up super well. SR might be the closest match, and even it's not perfect.

 

[Chaoticgumbo]

I hear you. What I'm trying to say from my long winded post is there shouldn't have been a LTD in the first place. I like that the Remake trilogy is negating the love triangle, but the OG game unfortunately made it even a thing which created that division. I've had Clerith friends who really enjoyed that aspect of that game, they now understand canon, but emotionally it's difficult for them to reconcile that. For FFVIII, true, they touched up on some of those romantic aspects. But now it's my bias speaking, but Rinoa does not hold a candle to Tifa or Aerith (sorry Rinoa fans).

 

[abzy1200]

They have made Cloud's feelings for Tifa much clearer and easier to see much earlier. Remember that FF7 is partly a mystery for the new players, and we are not yet to the point of the reveal. You're keeping an eye on the shell game to find the pretty lady right now while FF7 has been metaphorically picking your pocket. It's the nature of the misdirect.

Yes, but there's also the whole thing through the characters. I get that the whole thing is supposed to fool people and subvert expectations, but I think it results in odd characterisations.

Well, it wasn't supposed to be in character until very late in development, so there's that.

smh lmao

 

[Eerie]

FFVII was always a very easy story to understand, which is why to me it's baffling that people refuse to understand it (because for some at this point, it's pure refusal). And I feel that the devs didn't think much about the LT because they thought it was an easy story to understand, as they had given the keys to understand it.

I have said it several times, but the LS scene does answer the LT that exists in game: it's Tifa Cloud loves. It's not that hard to understand that if his feelings have been pushed at the forefront in such an intimate way, it's because they still are important, that it's not the past as many claimed. The LS scene does unknot the plot, but it also answers Cloud's feelings, it is a romance scene. And I have said it many times, but I feel that we will get a kiss and maybe a love confession there in Rebirth (thought about it because of Akira's song).

So the fact that people fought about it before I even stumbled on it was pretty crazy to me. It's become an emotional debates filled with bad faith and extremists views (from both sides) rather than a logical debate. And it's part of the things the devs are going to set up definitively with CT and ZA being the very clear canon pairings. Cloud is a loyal boy, who only loved one girl his whole life, and that's Tifa - and if he fell in love with Aerith in the span of two weeks, what would it tells about him, about this love for the other girl he's nurtured over the years, etc.? To simply put it, C > A cannot exists because Tifa exists. And he's probably been crushing hard on her already during the Mt Nibel incident, and they probably became soulmates during the promise, as they knot together their hopes and dreams as one. Aerith never had a chance to begin with, but Rebirth also poses the question: did she want a chance, deep in her heart? It's interesting how they're going to tackle ZA next game, to me it will most probably be the LTD killer.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Before I start I'd like to properly say hello, big lurker here!

Hello and welcome!

When she meets her tragic fate at the arms of the hero, it is a gut wrenching moment and you as the player have a visceral reaction to the moment, feeling the emotions Cloud goes through.

You know, I actually had the exact opposite experience. XD I fully went into FF7 thinking that CA was canon (I'd read it in passing on the internet) and I didn't feel much about Aerith's death aside from: "Oh, she died? Well, that's depressing." And five seconds after that I remembered that Cloud was alive at the end of the game and I realised I'd been lied to about CA. XD

By the time I played FF7, I was already familiar with Japanese media and they never or rarely leave the protagonist hopelessly pining after a love interest. The secondary male lead? Yeah, that guy can pine for the rest of his life, self-insert himself in the main lead's marriage as surrogate dad, or realise he was in love with the main couple's unborn and hitherto unconceived child all along. (I've read some wild stuff, lol.)

I like that the Remake trilogy is negating the love triangle, but the OG game unfortunately made it even a thing which created that division.

And I think this goes back to misunderstanding shipping, shippers and LTDs. Like, there literally was nothing the devs could've done to prevent the LTD from happening aside from maybe not having Cloud and Aerith interact at all but then you might as well start asking why have Aerith in the game then? ALL characters get shipped and it's mostly the main characters who get entangled in LTDs even if the other ship literally has nothing going for it. I've seen people create LTDs literally out of thin air over ships that never had even the tiniest chance of becoming canon.

Yes, the player can play Cloud as having a romantic interest in Aerith which does muddy the discussion a bit, admittedly. But FF7 isn't Mass Effect. Aerith talks about her ex-boyfriend on all of her dates (funny, Retrilogy switched this up and now she talks about Tifa!), Aerith dies (and later reunites with the boyfriend she longed to see), Cloud declares another woman his raison d'être and confesses his feelings for her, and spends their seemingly last night on earth with her as she says "Words aren't the only way blah blah blah" and the screen fades to back. If FF7 had really been a choose your own waifu adventure, the devs probably would've written an option where Cloud visits the church instead or Forgotten City and Tifa could've gone with Barret to see Marlene, I guess?

And yeah, some people did interpret FF7 as "SOLDIER Boy meets Cute. SOLDIER Boy and Cute fall in love. Cute dies. SOLDIER Boy swears to avenge his lost love interest." To put it simply, lol. And the thing is... Cloud already did that with Tifa, you know? "Return my mother... Tifa... and my village!" right as he stabbed Sephiroth. Well, the only reason I point this out is that it's kind of funny when you consider that the extreme CAs really hate that ZA "imitated" CA but it's okay if CA "imitated" CT?

But anyway, funny enough there already is a game (released in 1996) about a blonde, womanizing soldier boy whose pink love interest died and he got together with another female character by the end. It really wasn't written like FF7 (and it was actually surprisingly well-written).

 

[Skilganon]

I don't want to argue too much about the interpretation of NPTK. Despite what Nojima says, many at SE are perfectly fine with people thinking it's a love ballad from Aerith to Cloud, Uematsu among them.

Before Aerith sings it, she glances at Cloud briefly. The lyrics talk about meeting a singular person on a cobblestone street. If the song was supposed to be about everyone she met, the lyrics would be way different.

Each game gets one theme song, so whatever themes are explored in that song are of utmost importance to the story. Fans are going to interpret the story as a whole in light of the theme songs. NPTK very easily gives the impression that Aerith's love for Cloud is integral to the story and her character, which to me, diminishes both.

I have no interest in arguing with people who interpret the song a certain way. I would instead argue with someone at SE. I don't understand why more people aren't more upset with SE's decisions regarding the songs or how they are treating Aerith.

The "until we meet again" vibes sets her up to be the kind of weird lover-ghost people on this forum have been laughing about for ages.

I think the story would have been better overall without NPTK and the dream date. Why make Aerith so focused on Cloud in her final moments?

 

[Eerie]

The meeting on the cobblestone street is a reference to Elmyra. She meets her on such street and we see it in her trial.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I don't want to argue too much about the interpretation of NPTK. Despite what Nojima says, many at SE are perfectly fine with people thinking it's a love ballad from Aerith to Cloud, Uematsu among them.

Before Aerith sings it, she glances at Cloud briefly. The lyrics talk about meeting a singular person on a cobblestone street. If the song was supposed to be about everyone she met, the lyrics would be way different.

Each game gets one theme song, so whatever themes are explored in that song are of utmost importance to the story. Fans are going to interpret the story as a whole in light of the theme songs. NPTK very easily gives the impression that Aerith's love for Cloud is integral to the story and her character, which to me, diminishes both.

I have no interest in arguing with people who interpret the song a certain way. I would instead argue with someone at SE. I don't understand why more people aren't more upset with SE's decisions regarding the songs or how they are treating Aerith.

The "until we meet again" vibes sets her up to be the kind of weird lover-ghost people on this forum have been laughing about for ages.

I think the story would have been better overall without NPTK and the dream date. Why make Aerith so focused on Cloud in her final moments?

Rather than aiming at NPTK and the summary of Aerith’s character arc in Rebirth (aka the dream walk), I instead aim at telling Rebirth primarily from Cloud’s pov.

This results in us missing out on interactions that happened outside of his knowledge, like ToTP covers which had Aerith and Tifa talk to eachother in a much more natural way imo. I’m sure we will see flashbacks in part 3, but I much rather they put them here to really show that transition of Aerith wanting to vicariously relive her feelings for Zack through Cloud and instead embrace her time with everyone.

Just like with Remake’s Hollow, pay attention to the game when it plays. Aerith’s performance being Cloud-centric doesn’t make sense with the visuals in any version.

We’re also dealing with an FF7 that has Crisis Core, a story that ends days(?) before the start of FF7. Those plot threads have to carry over into this rewrite of FF7, and that means Cloud and Aerith have to have their own arc that very tellingly links strongly back to Zack.

Without part 3, it’s hard to say if Rebirth did what it needs to do or not, but having such visually rich segments between characters is very interesting to me. I’m still picking things apart, some probably amounting to nothing, some very clever setup for later.

 

[Skilganon]

The Cloud-centric interpretation of NPTK isn't what I'm arguing for. My point is that SE doesn't seem to mind people having that interpretation.

I don't think SE's intentions are as clear-cut as people think.

The meeting on the cobblestone street is a reference to Elmyra. She meets her on such street and we see it in her trial.

I don't have much interest in arguing interpretations. But the lyrics "Life passin' me by, not knowing how the years have flown" indicates that she's been walking city streets for a while. Doubtful this is about Elmyra.

It's the same thing with Hollow and people saying it's about Zack, so it must mean that Cloud wants to embrace Zack.

I'm not arguing for any interpretation. Someone at SE translated these lyrics. I'm just wondering why more people aren't upset with SE for leaving space for interpretations they themselves have been arguing against for years.

Let me put it this way: If a Clerith fan fiction writer was commissioned to write a song about CA, I don't think it would be that different from NPTK.

These songs play into the worst theories from CA shippers. Nobody seems to care all that much.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Because a story that holds your hand to the level required for there to be no room for misinterpretation isn’t a good story, or rather it’s a boring one.

On one hand, shippers will ship a ham sandwich if you leave it on screen long enough. There’s really no use in trying to control that aspect of fandom, and you’re better off just telling your story and leaving it.

Any work that’s fun to interpret leaves room to be misinterpreted, that’s why it’s engaging.

Why be upset when the guy who wrote those lyrics straight up tells you what it means? That’s why I personally find the convo around the songs boring: puzzle has been solved already.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

On one hand, shippers will ship a ham sandwich if you leave it on screen long enough. There’s really no use in trying to control that aspect of fandom, and you’re better off just telling your story and leaving it.

That's exactly what happens with FF7 shippers; they see the ham sandwich standing next to a pink lemonade the owner just forgot and their assumption is "oh, they are in love" smh

 

[Eerie]

Shipping really isn't the problem, people can ship whatever it doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when they try to pretend that their fanon ship is the canon one, degrade characters in their stories etc. It's the whole illusional world that they have built as shippers that they try to pass as canon.

 

[Ryeleigh]

The Cloud-centric interpretation of NPTK isn't what I'm arguing for. My point is that SE doesn't seem to mind people having that interpretation.

I don't think SE's intentions are as clear-cut as people think.



I don't have much interest in arguing interpretations. But the lyrics "Life passin' me by, not knowing how the years have flown" indicates that she's been walking city streets for a while. Doubtful this is about Elmyra.

It's the same thing with Hollow and people saying it's about Zack, so it must mean that Cloud wants to embrace Zack.

I'm not arguing for any interpretation. Someone at SE translated these lyrics. I'm just wondering why more people aren't upset with SE for leaving space for interpretations they themselves have been arguing against for years.

Let me put it this way: If a Clerith fan fiction writer was commissioned to write a song about CA, I don't think it would be that different from NPTK.

These songs play into the worst theories from CA shippers. Nobody seems to care all that much.

The thing is... why should SE mind what interpretations people have of their games? Besides, the ones who would probably mind are the people who actually worked on the game and not really the company, lol. I mean, there just really isn't much a writer can do to stop people from having wild or even wrong interpretations of their work? Unless they become totally egocentric about their own work, flatten out all nuance, and argue with people either on social media or through another work, at which point it stops being fiction and becomes a mouthpiece.

And like, "why more people aren't upset with SE for leaving space for interpretations" very easily becomes "they shouldn't leave space for interpretations" which honestly sounds a bit like the Party in 1984 rewriting all literature in Newspeak so they could stop the horrors of thoughtcrimes. Which is also what religious fundamentalism does, where all differing interpretations are labelled heresies that should be stamped out. The extreme shippers, the ones who are honestly cult-ish about it, also have a similar mindset.

Besides, tbh, No Promises to Keep just as easily fits ZA and CT so I personally don't care much about the song, lol.

Shipping really isn't the problem, people can ship whatever it doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when they try to pretend that their fanon ship is the canon one, degrade characters in their stories etc. It's the whole illusional world that they have built as shippers that they try to pass as canon.

Someone said that being in fandom is like fighting misinformation in real time, lol. And yeah, this is what the non-canon shippers who demand canon/fandom validation don't seem to get: nobody cares what they ship, lol. What people care about are the lies, the high and mighty attitude, playing the victim, harassment, etc.

 

[abzy1200]

What bothers me is when they try to pretend that their fanon ship is the canon one, degrade characters in their stories etc. It's the whole illusional world that they have built as shippers that they try to pass as canon.

I think it's important to note that it's gotten to the point that content creators would rather dodge the topic entirely for fear of backlash. The LTD and the people who have been arguing about it for years have given the game a bad rep in some ways.

I mean, Cloud and Tifa's relationship is a core aspect of the narrative, and yet people can't talk about it without people clipping them and ridiculing them on Twitter.

I also think there might be a tendency from people to see that people argue over what we call a "Love Triangle" and immediately close their minds to new information and declare it ambiguous because "I couldn't care less about shipping bs" or something like that, leading them to miss crucial plot points in favour of upholding that highground because shipping is part of cringe culture these days, and they'd rather distance themselves from a massive part of the narrative because of that.

So, even though I think the LTD might have given the game a bit more longevity, I also think that, at this point, it's doing more harm than good to discussion around the game and peoples' interpretations of it. I don't mean that I want everything to be spoonfed to people, but just the existence of an "LTD" can immediately shift someone's perspective of things in such a way that they don't engage properly with the media.

I don't have much interest in arguing interpretations. But the lyrics "Life passin' me by, not knowing how the years have flown" indicates that she's been walking city streets for a while. Doubtful this is about Elmyra.

Even if it is about Cloud specifically, it could still be read as "My life was boring, and then I met you (Cloud), and through you I met so many amazing people and experienced things I never would have gotten to had I not run into you." So, I wouldn't stress about it too much.