SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Skilganon]

Cleriths are trying to spin it like Cloud's internal monologue is "Haha, this bitch is in love with me. She doesn't know I only want her for her body. A cool SOLDIER doesn't give a f*ck about women. I've scored big time."

It's more like, "OMG I'm hugging Tifa, OMG she's relying on me for emotional support, is this what it's like to HAVE SEX? Am I a cool SOLDIER yet?"

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, the "like a one night stand" is about Cloud getting way too excited about this and squeezing too hard in said excitement. IIRC the Japanese phrase is "midnight mistake" and it's about letting your feelings get out of control and you do something you aren't ready for yet, but don't exactly regret.

It's saying Cloud tried his best to console Tifa, but he got a bit too excited about being the one to get to console Tifa that he screwed up a little.

 

[ForceStealer]

As usual I couldn't care less about any LTD implications, but I can't say I like that reading even just for Cloud's character. I read him hugging her at all, as well as too tightly, as his cool-guy persona dropping, not being the reason for it.
That he hesitates to hug her is due to wishing to maintain the persona/awkwardness, but giving in due to, yes, wanting to have hugged and consoled her all those years ago, but also from his own (decidedly unprocessed) grief over Nibelheim. Thus causing him to squeeze even tighter.

Imma stick with that one To make it about him just missing the mark on cool-guy-ness takes a lot of meaning out of the scene, imo.

 

[Ryushikaze]

As usual I couldn't care less about any LTD implications, but I can't say I like that reading even just for Cloud's character. I read him hugging her at all, as well as too tightly, as his cool-guy persona dropping, not being the reason for it.
That he hesitates to hug her is due to wishing to maintain the persona/awkwardness, but giving in due to, yes, wanting to have hugged and consoled her all those years ago, but also from his own (decidedly unprocessed) grief over Nibelheim. Thus causing him to squeeze even tighter.

Imma stick with that one To make it about him just missing the mark on cool-guy-ness takes a lot of meaning out of the scene, imo.

I don't think it's about him missing the mark on being a cool guy, but that he has a part of himself that's excited just about getting to be there for Tifa that gets too excited and he forgets himself. He's not a jackass, he's just incredibly awkward around his crush while trying to be there for her.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah as I said becoming Tifa's hero, someone special to her has been his core character since the promise and probably even before that. So basically it's a misstep, but also it allows him to grow - a much needed growth! I personally feel that since the beginning of Remake, we are seeing Cloud being really young and trying hard to grow and learn as a person throughout the two first games.

For example, as I mentioned earlier, take the flower. He gifted it to Tifa, trying to impress her (using Zack's technic) instead of wanting to please her first, and when she noticed that it wasn't like him to do that, he lied to her, which leads to her resolution where she is disappointed that she found out it primarily came frome Aerith. This isn't about being jealous, this is about the gift not being a thoughtful gift from Cloud for her, something special. I am pretty sure that the girls talked about it in Kalm, hence Aerith's words towards Cloud in Under Junon (I'm also pretty sure the director got the tone of the scene wrong because the English reads too mean compared to the JP, which led to a very awkward scene in EN).

But later, we have Tifa in Gongaga actually really wanting to cook those rare mushrooms... and in CoT, Cloud brings her rare veggies for her to cook, which makes her really happy. I don't know if you can see it, but it's actually an incredibly sweet growth from Cloud who begins Remake as a 16 years old boy in his head who really wants to impress the girl he loves, until CoT where you see him being thoughtful about what Tifa would actually want as a gift. Sure she'd like flowers, but she gets things even more special, because she actually wants that over flowers.

In comparison, the misstep in the hug is the same kind; we see him reacts a bit too much like a teen, but he grows more and more, learns more and more until he can be there for her in Nibelheim, the reactor and the GS date, answering her trouble every time she needs him. That's also sweet!

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah as I said becoming Tifa's hero, someone special to her has been his core character since the promise and probably even before that. So basically it's a misstep, but also it allows him to grow - a much needed growth! I personally feel that since the beginning of Remake, we are seeing Cloud being really young and trying hard to grow and learn as a person throughout the two first games.

For example, as I mentioned earlier, take the flower. He gifted it to Tifa, trying to impress her (using Zack's technic) instead of wanting to please her first, and when she noticed that it wasn't like him to do that, he lied to her, which leads to her resolution where she is disappointed that she found out it primarily came frome Aerith. This isn't about being jealous, this is about the gift not being a thoughtful gift from Cloud for her, something special. I am pretty sure that the girls talked about it in Kalm, hence Aerith's words towards Cloud in Under Junon (I'm also pretty sure the director got the tone of the scene wrong because the English reads too mean compared to the JP, which led to a very awkward scene in EN).

But later, we have Tifa in Gongaga actually really wanting to cook those rare mushrooms... and in CoT, Cloud brings her rare veggies for her to cook, which makes her really happy. I don't know if you can see it, but it's actually an incredibly sweet growth from Cloud who begins Remake as a 16 years old boy in his head who really wants to impress the girl he loves, until CoT where you see him being thoughtful about what Tifa would actually want as a gift. Sure she'd like flowers, but she gets things even more special, because she actually wants that over flowers.

In comparison, the misstep in the hug is the same kind; we see him reacts a bit too much like a teen, but he grows more and more, learns more and more until he can be there for her in Nibelheim, the reactor and the GS date, answering her trouble every time she needs him. That's also sweet!

Equivalent to Cloud losing the 1v1 at the end of Remake. He’s not where he needs to be in his growth as a character to fulfill his goals.

If his primary drivers are to be an emotional and physical support for Tifa, then he’s going to be clumsy and ill equipped to some degree at the beginning.

As you said though, the important bit is that he grows into a better place as soon as Gongaga. I found it interesting how Cloud’s confession to Tifa didn’t even answer her initial question in Kalm. He instead answers the bigger question that includes that answer: he’s “degenerating”, it’s messing with his memory, and it scares him that he feels like he’s losing himself.

Looking back at Remake with Rebirth in hand is actually enriching for the characters. You really see how they’ve taken steps forward, even Sephiroth levels up his gaslighting!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah as I said becoming Tifa's hero, someone special to her has been his core character since the promise and probably even before that. So basically it's a misstep, but also it allows him to grow - a much needed growth! I personally feel that since the beginning of Remake, we are seeing Cloud being really young and trying hard to grow and learn as a person throughout the two first games.

For example, as I mentioned earlier, take the flower. He gifted it to Tifa, trying to impress her (using Zack's technic) instead of wanting to please her first, and when she noticed that it wasn't like him to do that, he lied to her, which leads to her resolution where she is disappointed that she found out it primarily came frome Aerith. This isn't about being jealous, this is about the gift not being a thoughtful gift from Cloud for her, something special. I am pretty sure that the girls talked about it in Kalm, hence Aerith's words towards Cloud in Under Junon (I'm also pretty sure the director got the tone of the scene wrong because the English reads too mean compared to the JP, which led to a very awkward scene in EN).

Yeah, the JP line comes across as Aerith upset on Tifa's behalf for Cloud not giving the gift with enough thoughfulness behind it.

 

[redoak77]

As usual I couldn't care less about any LTD implications, but I can't say I like that reading even just for Cloud's character. I read him hugging her at all, as well as too tightly, as his cool-guy persona dropping, not being the reason for it.
That he hesitates to hug her is due to wishing to maintain the persona/awkwardness, but giving in due to, yes, wanting to have hugged and consoled her all those years ago, but also from his own (decidedly unprocessed) grief over Nibelheim. Thus causing him to squeeze even tighter.

Imma stick with that one To make it about him just missing the mark on cool-guy-ness takes a lot of meaning out of the scene, imo.

Right?!

And say what you want about the translation and missing context or whatever; it sounds rough and they went with it and put it on paper.

 

[Eerie]

Well it seems that they translated the Ulti with AI, so it explains a lot of things also I’m guessing fans did a better job lol. When I saw the translation I illustrated said it must be AI generated, looks like I was right.

Edit: x.com

 

[Skilganon]

I don't think the use of AI makes the translation worthless. To me, there's not much difference from the fan translations that were floating around a couple years ago. Clerith blogs had already been using the description of the CT hug to make Cloud look like an asshole.

I think it's more an issue of the complexity of the idea being expressed.

The description of the hug states several things: Cloud has feelings for Tifa, he's wanted to be a cool SOLDIER who she can rely on since he was a child, the "one-night-stand" or "transgression" line indicates he's sexually attracted to her.

To contrast, the descriptions of the Clerith scenes are extremely literal and don't go as deep into the characters' psychology. I find it intriguing they wrote such a loaded paragraph to describe the hug in the CT resolution.

 

[Eerie]

The AI removes the subtext and the problem is that Japanese is a high context language. It can't really work as is. The AI is the problem in this case, a human translator wouldn't have made the mistake. FYI, someone ordered a professional translation for this page: x.com

The CT scene is much more complex and I'd argue it's actually necessary for Cloud's own development compared to the other two - it also kind of have its own mini arc in the main story. It was put first in the resolutions' page and the only one where you see Cloud in the picture describing it; the way it was filmed made it also as much about Cloud than about Tifa, contrarily to Barret and Aerith's resolution. It's a big dive into Cloud and Tifa's minds, colouring it romantically too with the description of the scene.

 

[Ryeleigh]

For example, as I mentioned earlier, take the flower. He gifted it to Tifa, trying to impress her (using Zack's technic) instead of wanting to please her first, and when she noticed that it wasn't like him to do that, he lied to her, which leads to her resolution where she is disappointed that she found out it primarily came frome Aerith. This isn't about being jealous, this is about the gift not being a thoughtful gift from Cloud for her, something special. I am pretty sure that the girls talked about it in Kalm, hence Aerith's words towards Cloud in Under Junon (I'm also pretty sure the director got the tone of the scene wrong because the English reads too mean compared to the JP, which led to a very awkward scene in EN).

Yeah, the JP line comes across as Aerith upset on Tifa's behalf for Cloud not giving the gift with enough thoughfulness behind it.

That was my reading of it, too, since it doesn't really make sense for Aerith to be jealous about it. But on the other hand, she did say, "It will make your girlfriend's day!" or something to that effect, so it was still a gift to be re-gifted to Cloud's "girlfriend" even if he didn't initially have the idea for it, lol.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That was my reading of it, too, since it doesn't really make sense for Aerith to be jealous about it. But on the other hand, she did say, "It will make your girlfriend's day!" or something to that effect, so it was still a gift to be re-gifted to Cloud's "girlfriend" even if he didn't initially have the idea for it, lol.

I think it's more a matter of "Cloud, be open with your feelings and honest with Tifa" I think Aerith can see Cloud has feelings for Tifa, Tifa has feelings for Cloud, and neither of them realize the other's feelings yet. For her own partknowing this and still doing what she does, she's treading a two different cliches,, one in which a friend makes overt but halfhearted moves on a guy to spur the friend into action, and another in which a woman, stuck on an old relationship, needs to make some sort of bold move to get moving.
I think Aerith may have chosen to take her shot with Cloud in the expectation of getting rejected so she could get some form of closure and then make a fresh start.

 

[aeriths]

So this image of the leaked officially translated Ultimania has been making the rounds. Thoughts? People have been using it as a dunk, and to be honest, I don’t know what to make of it. Is it as bad as I think it sounds?
View attachment 17313

Oh wow this is such a bad faith translation to put in official work. It makes Cloud look terrible especially given the context of the scene. No idea what they were thinking with this considering the original Japanese text

 

[Odysseus]

If only somebody translated the MUP months ago who was actually familiar with the game and didn't use AI...

cough

 

[Skilganon]

That was my reading of it, too, since it doesn't really make sense for Aerith to be jealous about it. But on the other hand, she did say, "It will make your girlfriend's day!" or something to that effect, so it was still a gift to be re-gifted to Cloud's "girlfriend" even if he didn't initially have the idea for it, lol.

This is an unfortunate reality of translation in general. In English, Aerith doesn't mention anything about a perspective girlfriend, she just says, "Think of it as a gift". The mention of a girlfriend makes her admonishment to Cloud less reasonable. Cloud did offer to pay for the flower, it was Aerith who decided to gift it to Cloud, which changes the whole situation in a way he couldn't control.

Anyway, I don't think Cloud gave the flower to Tifa for insincere reasons. It's not a regift when Aerith was already selling the flower as a gift to give to someone else.

 

[Hellenic]

Well it seems that they translated the Ulti with AI, so it explains a lot of things also I’m guessing fans did a better job lol. When I saw the translation I illustrated said it must be AI generated, looks like I was right.

Edit: x.com

I'm very disappointed they chose to let AI handle this stuff. It's just downright bad how that ended up being translated.

The AI removes the subtext and the problem is that Japanese is a high context language. It can't really work as is. The AI is the problem in this case, a human translator wouldn't have made the mistake. FYI, someone ordered a professional translation for this page: x.com

This right here is way better. I hope they can actually handle the future translations with proper people and not overtly rely on AI.

This just makes me feel like they delayed the Remake Ultimania Plus for this long just so they could try their AI technology on it as a test subject. Hojo would be proud.

 

[Eerie]

Anyway, I don't think Cloud gave the flower to Tifa for insincere reasons. It's not a regift when Aerith was already selling the flower as a gift to give to someone else.

He was not insincere, he wanted to impress her. It's in his core character, he wants to become special to her and he will do everything whithin his power to do so. But by doing so, he forgot to really think that he wanted her to be happy. He is the Cloud from the very start of Remake, and that guy starts from far back, he has a lot of growth to do, which he does throughout Remake and Rebirth, but he starts LOW. It's not a thoughtful gift that came from him, it came from Aerith instead, it's not that special to him. That's why Tifa is upset.

Then he gets scolded by Aerith in Under Junon (who also learned a lesson from Tifa herself), learns in Gongaga that she wishes to cook rare things but they are too expensive so she can never afford them - and in CoT he brings her rare veggies.

The character growth is there (I still hope to see him bring her a rare veggie in p3 ) and it's very sweet because you can see how much he wants her to be happy; his love for her in how he listens to what she says and what she wants. Because sure Tifa would like flowers from him, but she wants those veggies even more because she is a cook first!

 

[Maidenofwar]

Interesting presentation. So apparently they were briefed on the characters, and their relationship, as well as watching clips, etc.

Don't know, but seems they are reinforcing this, a bit, as well it being about Aerith herself and all her loves and cares.

Edit; Well I think Nojima's words are still important

and while theres still elements of that, like meeting someone, them changing your world

Edit 2- I wonder if the release of this was to coincide with the nominations for the Golden Joysticks and TGA, hmm.

Edit: I truly think they are definitely saying it's definitely both, a love song, about Aerith and Cloud, their bond, AND an Aerith song for everyone, Zack, etc, too

I don't want to put words into Loren's mouth, and say she based her research on what SE/the team briefed/coached her on, but it would be nice if there were some of that in it.

What I don't want to say, or think that this necessarily changes anything, there's still the whole leads to AC thing, and that endgame. Hmm. So for me CT and ZA isn't "destroyed" or anything like that. Just that CA is getting recognition too.

As someone who's mostly loved, enjoyed and appreciated CA in Reverse so far above all I want Aerith to be happy, she's my favourite, I can't deny that, but that doesn't mean I want other characters hurt or unhappy or people for that matter. So for me, whatever they do, as long as they do it as well as they've done so far I think I'll enjoy it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Interesting presentation. So apparently they were briefed on the characters, and their relationship, as well as watching clips, etc.

Don't know, but seems they are reinforcing this, a bit, as well it being about Aerith herself and all her loves and cares.

Edit; Well I think Nojima's words are still important


Edit 2- I wonder if the release of this was to coincide with the nominations for the Golden Joysticks and TGA, hmm.

Edit: I truly think they are definitely saying it's definitely both, a love song, about Aerith and Cloud, their bond, AND an Aerith song for everyone, Zack, etc, too

I don't want to put words into Loren's mouth, and say she based her research on what SE/the team briefed/coached her on, but it would be nice if there were some of that in it.

What I don't want to say, or think that this necessarily changes anything, there's still the whole leads to AC thing, and that endgame. Hmm. So for me CT and ZA isn't "destroyed" or anything like that. Just that CA is getting recognition too.

I would take the word of the man who wrote the lyrics over the singer, no offense to Loren.
But it absolutely doesn't change anything. We are winding up with the same post-FF7 world as we always were, the stops along the way there might be in a different order or with different emphasis, but Remake project was always planned to explain and remove ambiguity, not completely rewrite the plot.

 

[aeriths]

What I don't want to say, or think that this necessarily changes anything, there's still the whole leads to AC thing, and that endgame. Hmm. So for me CT and ZA isn't "destroyed" or anything like that. Just that CA is getting recognition too.

As someone who's mostly loved, enjoyed and appreciated CA in Reverse so far above all I want Aerith to be happy, she's my favourite, I can't deny that, but that doesn't mean I want other characters hurt or unhappy or people for that matter. So for me, whatever they do, as long as they do it as well as they've done so far I think I'll enjoy it.

This is a good mentality to have that I wish more people had! Aerith is my favorite character as well but I also realistically don’t think CA will be endgame. It would leave other character arcs unsatisfying/hurt and would have to change too much of the story to happen.

However, CA fans are still a big chunk of their fanbase so they’re not going to be cruel to them or isolate them. Plus, this was Aerith’s final big part of their games so the song is a nice send off.

 

[abzy1200]

but Remake project was always planned to explain and remove ambiguity

As Maiden said, even though Cloti and Zerith's positions are more or less safe for part 3, CA is still kinda getting recognition, so assuming they stick to their words, what exactly is the end goal here. World's biggest troll?

Even if part 3 does give a solid conclusion the whole fiasco, they've still given CA a bunch of stuff that could be read as romantic, and lends itself as evidence that there is isn't a concrete answer, subsequently continuing to perpetuate the ambiguity. So I don't know why they bother saying stuff like this. It's exasperating.

 

[Skilganon]

I question why they would make a song about Aerith's love for Cloud. They should have just kept it ambiguous. It's doubly strange she sings this song then later on gives Cloud the "Liking and liking" explanation.

I don't know how to interpret it other than blatant misdirection. It doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Eerie]

As Maiden said, even though Cloti and Zerith's positions are more or less safe for part 3, CA is still kinda getting recognition, so assuming they stick to their words, what exactly is the end goal here. World's biggest troll?

Even if part 3 does give a solid conclusion the whole fiasco, they've still given CA a bunch of stuff that could be read as romantic, and lends itself as evidence that there is isn't a concrete answer, subsequently continuing to perpetuate the ambiguity. So I don't know why they bother saying stuff like this. It's exasperating.

You have to understand that right now we’re getting high in the illusion that FFVII has always pushed. In OG you get under the illusion that Aerith is the main love interest, here I’d argue that at least she’s not presented that way.

At the end of Rebirth, what we get is “is Aerith really in love with Cloud, what kind of feelings does she have?” And “Cloud only loves her as a dear friend, there’s nothing romantic in his feelings”. So either way CA is at best one-sided. And we’ll definitely get a clear answer from Aerith in p3. I don’t think the devs want us to believe that she is with Zack because he’s second best; my theory is that Cloud acts like a stand-in for Zack, especially during their GS date but you can also see it during the dream date, with Zack’s scenes being interspersed in between that date. To me there’s a good chance that Aerith fell in love all over again with Zack through Cloud.

I question why they would make a song about Aerith's love for Cloud. They should have just kept it ambiguous. It's doubly strange she sings this song then later on gives Cloud the "Liking and liking" explanation.

I don't know how to interpret it other than blatant misdirection. It doesn't sit right with me.

The song is not a love song, it’s a song about people Aerith deeply cares about. If it was a love song it would be pretty awful during the CT GS date with her singing while Cloud and Tifa hold hands.

Aerith in the dream date is also definitely CoLW Aerith, and it’s interesting to me that she dies (all the worlds died with her). That Cloud-centric Aerith dies before our Aerith takes stage inside the Lifestream… just saying but it’s an interesting observation. And she gets Zack waiting for her in “their spot”.

 

[pxl_pushr]

You have to understand that right now we’re getting high in the illusion that FFVII has always pushed. In OG you get under the illusion that Aerith is the main love interest, here I’d argue that at least she’s not presented that way.

At the end of Rebirth, what we get is “is Aerith really in love with Cloud, what kind of feelings does she have?” And “Cloud only loves her as a dear friend, there’s nothing romantic in his feelings”. So either way CA is at best one-sided. And we’ll definitely get a clear answer from Aerith in p3. I don’t think the devs want us to believe that she is with Zack because he’s second best; my theory is that Cloud acts like a stand-in for Zack, especially during their GS date but you can also see it during the dream date, with Zack’s scenes being interspersed in between that date. To me there’s a good chance that Aerith fell in love all over again with Zack through Cloud.

The song is not a love song, it’s a song about people Aerith deeply cares about. If it was a love song it would be pretty awful during the CT GS date with her singing while Cloud and Tifa hold hands.

Aerith in the dream date is also definitely CoLW Aerith, and it’s interesting to me that she dies (all the worlds died with her). That Cloud-centric Aerith dies before our Aerith takes stage inside the Lifestream… just saying but it’s an interesting observation. And she gets Zack waiting for her in “their spot”.

I mean, Aerith does have 23 little wishes that all summed up to “I want to spend more time with you” with “you” being Zack.

Having NPTK be squarely about Cloud doesn’t make as much narrative sense imo than it being about everyone including Cloud who embodies the bonds she’s made.

Ultimately, it’s a buildup to the Lifestream blocking Meteor, powered by the souls of the dead loved ones who Aerith rallies to protect those they left behind.

CA is supposed to come off as romantic because Cloud carries an inherently romantic dream from Zack: to make Aerith’s one wish come true. Just like Elmyra’s wish to see her husband again has Aerith, a new type of love, drop into her lap, Aerith experiences her tiny wishes through new types of love.

Aerith’s whole arc is about letting go of the Zack of her memories, the one she sees in Cloud, and embracing the new bonds she has. Only then is ready to embrace all of herself and fight in the only way she can.

Good news is, doing this and taking a true step forward sets her on a path of a true reunion with Zack, and a collision course with whatever is left of Sephiroth after ACC.