SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

I have a question to ask: What do you guys think the developers want players to get out of the CA relationship? What do you think the developers themselves get out of it? (I don't mean to ask this as a way of dismissing the relationship itself).

How the devs see their game versus how players see it is vastly different: they see something that has to be presented in a way to reach the players.

Now, I do think they wanted to please the CAs shippers, make no mistake: however, they also wanted to give a clear answer to the LT, and a start of what really happened during those days Cloud and Aerith met.

I think that as to what the devs want to give across as a message will be at least partially answered in p3, so people who answer right this question are probably most in tune with the devs’ ideas.

So what is CA’s relationship, my guess is probably as good as anyone’s. Personally, I think of it as Aerith living through Cloud the things she wanted to do with Zack, but not realising it until the GS date (and I should add that the GS date does, in fact, not exist, just like the other versions).

Now let me get through this: this is Remake’s chapter 8 extended in Rebirth, except in Remake she had a bit more knowledge than in Rebirth (knowledge from the future). From Aerith’s side, who is the pursuer, I do not believe once she realised what she was doing; at first she wanted to help Tifa in Kalm, but the temptation was too strong and she also looked for Zack in Cloud. That’s what she saw, his mannerisms, his confidence, his sword, there was too much of Zack to not be attracted to Cloud there. So without realising it, she wanted to spend more time with Cloud because she wanted that Zack side badly - remember Zack had disappeared, it’s only been a few months since she decided to move on but in the end she was still stuck. And most of all, she did not get to mourn him properly either. So the Aerith we meet in Remake and still is there in Rebirth is very wounded, emotionally speaking. As CoLW Aerith stated, she hadn’t realised that what she was doing could be seen as romantic, so I think that you absolutely should read most of their scenes as friendship with a dash of romance from Aerith but most probably… a misplaced one. Which would explain the “there’s like and like” line when she realises Cloud does not reciprocate her feelings. It forces her for the first time to examine what she’s been feeling for Cloud during all this time.

When Aerith realises her mistake and how she badly treated Cloud without meaning it (reminder she wanted to spend those moments with Zack deep down), her reaction was “wait, I want to meet the real him”. Sadly she did not have that time.

On Cloud’s side, we can see a certain fondness for her, but does he fall in love with her? No. Because in the end not only he isn’t himself, but also the time he spent with her is still nothingness compared to Tifa’s print on him. Cloud is very determined to become someone special for Tifa, and thus for him, Aerith remains solidly a nakama. For her though, he will act as Zack more than the usual persona - a very conscious act I think, during the GS date where he feels her distress regarding Zack. The only girl Cloud actively pursues in Rebirth is Tifa - it is with her that his conversations end with “let’s talk more next time”, which resonates with Tifa’s thoughts in ToTP about wanting to spend more time with him alone on a special way. This is also what Aerith wanted, but what she was denied as she was called a nakama there by Cloud (I think it makes sense that the LA and HA versions mix up into one sentence).

So in the end, Cloud and Aerith do have a special bond, however as far as romance goes it fell flat because none were ready to go that way. Cloud didn’t want to and Aerith never really gets the chance, and when her CoLW version does, it still falls flat because Cloud still recoils. What SE is selling there is that Cloud is a loyal boy (to Tifa), and Aerith is lost and trying to get something she can’t have anymore (until death reunites her with Zack). A lot of people said that Cloud metaphorically needs to go through Aerith to be with Tifa but I highly disagree: it’s Aerith who needs to go through Cloud to find Zack.

 

[Hellenic]

The reason i don't think the whole Clerith romance works is precisely because Cloud doesn't put in enough effort or desire from his side to make it work. It's probably the biggest reason i don't really like them as a thing. Feels very one sided a lot of the time.

Then there is ofc also the stuff mentioned earlier here like how he is willing to show his most vulnerable side only to Tifa and never really opens up to Aerith in a similar way. Both Tifa and Cloud lean on each other for support but it's pretty much just Aerith doing that on the other side.

As much as there are cute moments between Cloud and Aerith, these things just kinda cement to me that the relationship is just never gonna work out with the way it's written right now.

 

[Ryeleigh]

All of this, oh my goodness. Like, it's a huge key component. Between being deadass tired and wanting to be a fair person—I try to be more easy on people and their ability to interpret, even if it is wrong factually. To be able to just say "Oh you just misunderstood it, you good". But, the absolute force that is interpretation is such a goober, and makes it complicated.

An interpretation is, at it's core, an explanation through understanding. So, really, it's very easy for it to be anything and everything. Two people can even agree on an interpretation, but have nuances in what they understand fully, which then creates division. There are interpretations that are shaped by relevant information, and then those that are shaped by, well, everything else. These two approaches can blend (i.e. subtext recognition), or not, and absolutely to what you said, sometimes this is simply from a place of personal selection and isolation. You can mold an interpretation to sound reasonable and analytical, but this and being wrong after the fact aren't mutually exclusive. Some people don't want to hear it, but fans are more alike in this regard than they think, even "rival" shippers. Certain individuals spend a lot of time being pissed at each other, when the other is doing something that they too will do for other ships. Cloti and Clerith alike want truths to be established, but a lot don't recognize the nature of interpretation enough, and if they did, maybe they'd go easier on each other.

From my experience, out of all types of FF7 fans, Cloti shippers/supporters generally tend to be the most "by the book, don't use opinion over fact" preachers, though admittedly still with interpretations that are a bit extra, as long as it's congruent with the facts. (this can be complicated too) These types are more mad about HOW Clerith fans are shipping, right? However, that switch up of "listen to the devs" to "the devs are lying" can happen real fast with proper motivation. And not gonna lie, happens a lot with homosexual ships. On one hand, I get it because it's for the good fight of representation, but on the other, there's too much other things being sacrificed unnecessarily. I also don't like hypocrisy. Funny enough for both Sora/Riku and Fang/Vanille ships—I've had conversations with Cloti fans who ship them where, conveniently, prioritizing an interpretation that conflicts with information is more acceptable than that of one that is shaped by said information. Because now, they believe their interpretation is correct, just like how Clerith fans felt this way for what they wanted to prioritize to understand the game. "Okay yeah, but THIS is different—".

Is it though?

View attachment 17330

Theory crafting bears fruit to the same goober activity. Sora/Riku fans were goobin' it up on Twitter with the same thing recently. Straight up: "Ultimania information isn't canon, but the Soriku theory is" reasoning, which ironically enough comes from a theory called "The Soriku Ultimania". And crazy how some of these were Cloti fans—"by the book" Cloti fans, mind you. What happened. It's not even a conspiracy—it's just VERY easy for people to have interpretations that aren't shaped by information or universally accepted logic—even if the result is an understanding that directly conflicts with said information. And it can sound reasonable as an isolated, selective thing, just like how it's reasonable for Clerith fans to see Cloud and Aerith the way they do, but context gives more than what people are willing to let it give, and so what can be established as fact vs. opinion is sacrificed.

Which to be fair, "information says that, BUT this scene shows this", could be justified—this decided by reasonable logic, hopefully. Interpretations like this can range from actually pointing out literal contradictions—to just being no, the information isn't conflicting, and people just don't understand how it applies. Now, which one is a misinterpretation, in retrospect to fandom recognition, falls on what individual people decide is true, and people are complicated, can lie, and have motivations outside of seeking truths that are beyond their own personal wishes. On the surface, Cloti fans have it easier in this scenario because their ship happens to align with the facts, but even the more sour ones have moments (about FF7 or outside) where they misinterpret things for the sake of their own goals.

I'm currently posting on my phone which is a giant pain so I hope I'll get through this with few mistakes. And I'll remember everything I wanted to comment.

Sorry, MelodicEnigma (such a pretty name, btw), I quoted your whole comment but I just wanted to add on the interpretation part.

I think what also muddies conversations about interpretations is that works of fiction can be interpreted multiple ways that isn't illiteracy, misinformation or bad faith. Because sometimes an author just fails with what they were trying to present. So a text can be read in a different way than what it tries to convey.

At that point, I think it's important to keep in mind: (the most probable) intent, context, genre, and the demographic the work is aimed at.

You already mentioned slash ships. For example, I'm peripherally aware that BakuDeku shippers were obnoxious/loud about the ship? And personally I met one person who actually seemed to expect that it would go canon. I ship it too (outing myself here, lol) but I still tried to gently tell her that it's not canon and it's just never going to be canon. I mean, Uraraka and Midoriya were established from chapter two if I recall correctly (intent), MHA is shonen (genre, sort of) and it's aimed at thirteen-year-old boys (demographic).

I feel I got sidetracked but I hope people can infer what I mean anyway, lol.

I have a question to ask: What do you guys think the developers want players to get out of the CA relationship?

Joy, I think.

I mean, writers used to give nice moments, jokes and winks to all ships and pairings because they thought it would make them happy. People used to understand that it didn't mean it was more than that, or that they were entitled to canon, or that it was some big nefarious plot to make the fans invested only to pull the rug from beneath them out of the petty meanness of their hearts, lol.

Like, FF7 and almost every story (aside from romance, I guess) are about more than just ships or pairings. And honestly, it's about more than just CA. So hyperfocusing on that one aspect (of any work) just kind of doesn't give a very clear view of things.

What do you think the developers themselves get out of it?

Probably a sense of accomplishment if they feel that they managed to convey what they wanted to convey.

I feel like if the romance doesn't work, the fault is mostly Cloud's.

It's not Cloud's fault if he's not interested, lol. Unless you meant "if they were mutually romantically interested, it wouldn't work because of Cloud"?

There's one particularly controversial manga where I got invested in a ship that wrecked like a motherfucker near the very end. The Titanic had a more pleasant voyage than this ship. I was pissed. The whole universe was pissed. (You may have already guessed which one based on that.) Then I listened to the author explain what she was trying to accomplish, and I read it again, and lo and behold you could see it from outer space. The ending was still garbage but it was undeniable that things were being set up for the other ship. So yeah, shipping makes us tunnel visioned.

Now I kind of want to know. Please tell me?

I've said in the past, the most gracious way to end the LTD is to have Cloud not reject, but also not reciprocate as Aerith realize she's fated to die, and bow out of the LTD graciously - which is her "I know where we stand"

Especially since there was just no way the devs would have Cloud say "are you really that desperate" to Aerith. To be fair, I don't know what he said in Japanese but I kind of hope it was less harsh, lol.

This is also what Aerith wanted, but what she was denied as she was called a nakama there by Cloud (I think it makes sense that the LA and HA versions mix up into one sentence).

I also think it's kind of telling that he tells her this in the Church where most of ZA romance happened. It makes me wonder if we'll get a ZA confession or equivalent there since the devs seem to like those kinds of callbacks, contrasts and parallels.

The reason i don't think the whole Clerith romance works is precisely because Cloud doesn't put in enough effort or desire from his side to make it work. It's probably the biggest reason i don't really like them as a thing. Feels very one sided a lot of the time.

The simple reason why CA romance doesn't work is that narratively it isn't supposed to work. They're not each other's intended love interests or true loves. And ironically, CA's most romantic moments are when Aerith isn't trying to push it to be romantic.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Whatever Cloud and Aerith are it isn't necrophilia just as Aerith/Zack were never necrophilia regardless of Zack's alive/ded status and CT never was when Cloud went missing OG or Tifa being dead in alternative Stamp worlds, etc. Not necrophilia.

 

[Heartstation]

I have a question to ask: What do you guys think the developers want players to get out of the CA relationship? What do you think the developers themselves get out of it? (I don't mean to ask this as a way of dismissing the relationship itself).

I see myself as somewhat neutral about CA. There's romance and cute moments, but also an air of melancholy hangs over them, especially as the story nears the end of Rebirth. I particularly found the CA GS date to be pretty sad, mostly because Cloud appears so unaware of what Aerith is attempting to discuss. I also found the dream date to be profoundly sad for similar reasons. Cloud doesn't acknowledge her attempts to find the real him and has no idea she's preparing to die. He gets some idea when she pushes him through the portal, but by then it's too late. That particular version of Aerith is gone for all we know.

I wonder how different it is for people who are highly invested in the ship. Usually you hear about Aerith's death being this great tragedy (Which it is). I feel like if the romance doesn't work, the fault is mostly Cloud's.

I’ve mainly been a lurker here but this is my own long-winded understanding of why Cloud & Aerith’s relationship is so significant, and what I think the intended takeaway is especially for the Retrilogy.

While it’s undeniable that they come to cherish each other deeply by the end, I do not believe there are grounds to say the game/devs ever intended for CA to be soulmates or a star-crossed romance like many shippers have argued for years.
But even despite the brief time they did know each other, & Cloud not being his true self when he meets her, their union changes both their lives immeasurably—she is introduced to a journey where she gets to experience the wonder of the outer world with a friend group that, had she lived, would have solidified the lifelong connections she always desired—and he meets someone who transforms his outlook on the planet & way of life in general.

She shows him prior to her death how to cherish every moment & to live in the Now, to not let the darkness in one’s own past corrupt their future/self—and it’s a lesson Aerith would eventually come to recognize in part because of Cloud’s advice to her on the CDS beach. It’s something that will also be necessary for him in the healing process after witnessing her death.

I think this specific type of connection through the concept of memory is what we’re meant to take away from their relationship, that they’ve both given each other valuable knowledge and memories to last a lifetime even if they’re fewer in number, and the idea that memory itself is so powerful.
Especially considering Aerith has been struggling to move past her memories of Zack, while Cloud’s current SOLDIER persona is unknowingly shaped by Zack’s memories.

Memories and experiences are sacred & incredibly important to a person’s identity; they’re the reason Sephiroth can exist “embedded” in Cloud, materia is forged from them, they flow within the Lifestream, the memories of Cloud’s past & the tender ones he holds for Tifa make him who he is, etc. As controversial as it is to think so, I do believe the choice by devs to connect Zack’s influence in Aerith’s life through her design & in the way she interacts is also indicative of the how much her memories or Zack mean to her. I think the concept of “memory” goes hand in hand with that of “Life” that has always been the central theme of FF7.

I believe this is also why they double down on Cloud getting into photography—not just because he will later be a cartographer for his delivery service, but because photographs are visual representations of memories that help immortalize them. They’re also for capturing cherished moments of your life/family/friends (ACC photos). The Cosmo Canyon side quest where he takes a picture of and with Aerith is soooo good & perfectly exemplifies this.

Cloud being unmoored from his own memories is effectively what keeps him from being his authentic, Real self. Which is why it’s tough to see so many people completely misunderstand the Lifestream scene & why his identity crisis is all so relevant to the overarching plot. Because without a grasp on his own memories, he can never be himself, and this exposes him to future manipulation by Sephiroth.

Tifa and Cloud are of course the ones whose lives weave together in shared memories—they ground each other there. But Aerith enlightens him on why even if they’re difficult to face, one shouldn’t defy or reject them, but to accept without letting them consume you. Additionally, & especially in Retrilogy, Aerith symbolizes the gravity of making new memories, and how that goes hand-in-hand with continuing to live after trauma, tragedy & change.

I’m theorizing this will all tie in to what Cloud & co. will end up doing to fill the empty White Materia in part 3 with memories of some sort, to demonstrate in a pretty literal way its power.

But in general, TLDR;
I believe Aerith and Cloud’s relationship is meant to demonstrate to us the importance of memory and life, how crucial it is to treasure the moments you share, no matter (and sometimes because of) how ephemeral they are. For someone like Cloud who was untethered from his true memories when he met Aerith and influenced by memories of Zack, I think this is especially poignant & crucial.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I'm currently posting on my phone which is a giant pain so I hope I'll get through this with few mistakes. And I'll remember everything I wanted to comment.

Sorry, MelodicEnigma (such a pretty name, btw), I quoted your whole comment but I just wanted to add on the interpretation part.

I think what also muddies conversations about interpretations is that works of fiction can be interpreted multiple ways that isn't illiteracy, misinformation or bad faith. Because sometimes an author just fails with what they were trying to present. So a text can be read in a different way than what it tries to convey.

At that point, I think it's important to keep in mind: (the most probable) intent, context, genre, and the demographic the work is aimed at.

You already mentioned slash ships. For example, I'm peripherally aware that BakuDeku shippers were obnoxious/loud about the ship? And personally I met one person who actually seemed to expect that it would go canon. I ship it too (outing myself here, lol) but I still tried to gently tell her that it's not canon and it's just never going to be canon. I mean, Uraraka and Midoriya were established from chapter two if I recall correctly (intent), MHA is shonen (genre, sort of) and it's aimed at thirteen-year-old boys (demographic).

I feel I got sidetracked but I hope people can infer what I mean anyway, lol.

Haha Thank you for the compliment—it's a mix between my musical background and early 2000 me thinking "enigma" sounded cool and edgy. Just stuck.

But yes to all this too! It's just easy for there to be routes of multiple interpretations for things. People are layered. Content is already layered enough—that is, authors create situations purposely for multiple interpretations to be had as well. That also makes it tricky. What is exposed through the work itself, the author's intent, and the people's recognition—there's different things to hone in on, but whether we can say the author failed depends on what the source of this failure actually is.

It's like how for a lot of shippers, you could narrow down their reasons for shipping to even a single scene—this scene of which gave a recognition of romanticism that created this understanding. If this happens to also be a scene that they'd argue is exclusively romantic and "no other explanation" fits or is "possible, but not as likely", then that opens the gates of examination of their understanding. This could also be separate from "endgame" or even character feelings topics—it's JUST about whether it's true to the characters actions, words, and how both are shown (cinematography)—how all those things are written to reflect romanticism. And it could just be wrong. An opposing understanding can be presented, and this understanding could "coincidentally" match that of other elements that would too lend to the opposite thought.

Depends. Everything depends after discussion. But there are reasonable limits, I'd say. Cloud and Tifa having the train roll scene exists only because of the recognition of the very common, romantic trope that it is—and this is down to even the trope specifics of HOW this was executed, shot for shot (so an argument of "breaking someone's fall = romance" is not true—it like most things are contextual). An author directly taking this trope from it's source and using it in the story by mistake, while not impossible in the sake of chance, is unlikely if to good faith believe that the author is cultured and understands media on basic levels. This, funny enough, does apply to Cloud and Aerith scenes too. For both, it's a problem for "rival ships" who don't want to accept it for whatever sense of conflict it gives them.

Shipping conversations are hard then because A LOT of it literally comes down to that. Someone's whole point of shipping is contingent on their read on the nature of scenes. Which is fine for the action of it, but in terms of discussions of "what to know", for the scene and beyond for greater narrative, it makes for all the complications previously spoken for.

But in general, TLDR;
I believe Aerith and Cloud’s relationship is meant to demonstrate to us the importance of memory and life, how crucial it is to treasure the moments you share, no matter (and sometimes because of) how ephemeral they are. For someone like Cloud who was untethered from his true memories when he met Aerith and influenced by memories of Zack, I think this is especially poignant & crucial.

I cut off the meat of this post just to keep my post shorter lol But this and everything is similar to where I fall for the most part. The Remake project has done things for Cloud and Aerith that hasn't been done before, like directly addressing the idea that a part of Cloud's bond with Aerith is false, which was never really a point. And I mean really, it wasn't directly. In OG and AC, Cloud has never expressed an idea that whatever he built with Aerith wasn't real and thus having a disconnect with who she is to him. (including that of any relationship he built with the Party) The ending of OG and AC's plot is expressive of the opposite really, and in concerns to Aerith—he didn't express guilt and regret for a false bond, but for one that is accepted and cherished. The idea of "unknowns" is mostly for Aerith in being aware that Cloud isn't fully himself, and even then, this never put her in a position where she treats her bond with Cloud as "not real" emotionally. And that includes the romantic aspect too, hence the Dawn of Koibito era.

Then Remake Project said "knock, knock". lol

The difference is that OG and AC also didn't address Cloud post-Lifestream thoughts on Aerith as directly romantic (again, to the rejoice of Cloti fans)—but this Remake project decided to specifically hone in on the concept of Cloud and Aerith both creating a false bond, specifically in romance. Never happened this way before. While for obvious reasons, Cloti fans rejoice at the premise of falsehood—for me personally, I don't like how this is approached so far if that is to be true. If the reason it isn't real is because Cloud isn't connected fully to his true self/memories (which yes, does connect to his love of Tifa), then it shouldn't JUST apply to romance though. It should apply to everything, and even that of the other party members. If the other components of his relationship with Aerith (and also that of his bond with everyone else) can be seen as something he carries over and never denies, then if he DOES feel romance towards Aerith, this should apply too. But, that's if he does, and from my point, it isn't written like it is, or at least not for what you could really, truly call romantic love.

Which to be clear, for 20+ year, this was always my stance—little, unexplored feelings of romance for Aerith, but a deeper, fuller understood love for Tifa. If Tifa is true love, then Aerith was simply potential felt within a situation where, because of his disconnect and awareness fully of the true love, he was more capable of feeling potential elsewhere.

With that said, I don't know what to think of what they're trying to do with Cloud and Aerith, if even for what outcome is going to have writing that I'd praise. Possibilities are reinforcing that it's not about his false persona, but rather the ultimate idea that you can't feel love for more than one person, even when complicated consciousness/memory shenanigans are at play. (i.e. His true self can only be in love with Tifa, so when he reconnects, any romanticism built is void) Though admittedly, I have a lot of issues with this commentary as a concept and in it's necessity to be told here. It's an unnecessary point if Cloud doesn't fall for Aerith anyway, thus wasting the commentary it was supposed to create. I have one friend who offers that while Cloud and Aerith can create a real, very close bond in every other aspect with his current state of being—romance is off the table because it's more special than anything else, and can only happen when you're truly yourself.

Meh. lol I'm a hopeless romantic, and even I say nah. You could easily capture how any emotion breaks barriers of limitations, and if you want to write a compelling story that shows the power of romance through this, that's awesome. In the case of Cloud and Aerith, it'd just have to be shown that the romantic feelings aren't on the same level as with Tifa, which Aerith herself will/does understand already, I'd bet.

I just have no idea if that's what Cloud and Aerith will do, especially when I can easily still imagine Cloud having a "hey, it was real for me" vague moment represented, and this being annoying because outside of what can be argued of romantic feelings they could be spun as he just isn't fully aware of them, certain moments in Rebirth should've been written differently if this is to be very convincing, because right now it's not that great....lol And if the grand meaning is "yes, Aerith was right and it wasn't real"—then this reinforces re-writting too of certain things as well, and I generally don't care for this, but if they're going for a "one true love" angle with no breathing room for potential romantic feelings, I still would've done things a bit differently.

 

[aeriths]

Hate to sound so simple with all these great write ups but to me Cloud loves/loved Aerith but Tifa is the love of his life.

 

[Wanderer]

 

[Sacky]

Hate to sound so simple with all these great write ups but to me Cloud loves/loved Aerith but Tifa is the love of his life.

I think it's more Cloud appreciated Aerith as almost a divine like person while also cherishing her as a friend. But also feels guilty he never truly got to meet her as himself and for failing to protect such a positive influence on the world. He was very comfortable in her presence basically. Whereas with Tifa every interaction is so important to him and he is nervous to not mess it up since he's been in love with her as a child. He still feels he's not worthy of her and undervalues himself. He feels pressure with Tifa at first because of his insecurity and she picks apart at his SOLDIER persona that he made to impress her. While with Aerith at first he can act out as a SOLDIER though unknown to him she also picks apart at the persona in a less confrontational way. Both Girls help Cloud in different ways but he's always been in love with Tifa. Aerith is who he talks about Tifa with and who he can get along with without pressure and just be relaxed and banter with. Tifa is the only person who he confides his insecurities with and his deepest secrets and feelings. She is his support and he is hers vice versa letting her expressing her feelings and doubts about stuff. With Aerith there's also the big elephant in the room being Zack, she was initially attracted to Cloud because of how she saw Zack in him and Cloud remembers Zack being head over heels for Aerith. Due to this he will never see her as a romantic partner. Tifa of course is the other reason.

 

[Wanderer]

I think it's more Cloud appreciated Aerith as almost a divine like person while also cherishing her as a friend. But also feels guilty he never truly got to meet her as himself and for failing to protect such a positive influence on the world. He was very comfortable in her presence basically. Whereas with Tifa every interaction is so important to him and he is nervous to not mess it up since he's been in love with her as a child. He still feels he's not worthy of her and undervalues himself. He feels pressure with Tifa at first because of his insecurity and she picks apart at his SOLDIER persona that he made to impress her. While with Aerith at first he can act out as a SOLDIER though unknown to him she also picks apart at the persona in a less confrontational way. Both Girls help Cloud in different ways but he's always been in love with Tifa. Aerith is who he talks about Tifa with and who he can get along with without pressure and just be relaxed and banter with. Tifa is the only person who he confides his insecurities with and his deepest secrets and feelings. She is his support and he is hers vice versa letting her expressing her feelings and doubts about stuff. With Aerith there's also the big elephant in the room being Zack, she was initially attracted to Cloud because of how she saw Zack in him and Cloud remembers Zack being head over heels for Aerith. Due to this he will never see her as a romantic partner. Tifa of course is the other reason.

I always felt like Cloud felt guilty for not being able to thank Aerith for all she did for him and for the planet itself and that he failed her in not being able to protect her when it most mattered. Remakes showed how he started losing his aloof attitude the more he spent with her. She saw through him and his farce of a personality and wanted to reach out to the Cloud within, and I think she did, He went from finding her annoying and clingy to being willing to step into the belly of the beast in 1 day.

 

[Eerie]

Haha Thank you for the compliment—it's a mix between my musical background and early 2000 me thinking "enigma" sounded cool and edgy. Just stuck.

But yes to all this too! It's just easy for there to be routes of multiple interpretations for things. People are layered. Content is already layered enough—that is, authors create situations purposely for multiple interpretations to be had as well. That also makes it tricky. What is exposed through the work itself, the author's intent, and the people's recognition—there's different things to hone in on, but whether we can say the author failed depends on what the source of this failure actually is.

It's like how for a lot of shippers, you could narrow down their reasons for shipping to even a single scene—this scene of which gave a recognition of romanticism that created this understanding. If this happens to also be a scene that they'd argue is exclusively romantic and "no other explanation" fits or is "possible, but not as likely", then that opens the gates of examination of their understanding. This could also be separate from "endgame" or even character feelings topics—it's JUST about whether it's true to the characters actions, words, and how both are shown (cinematography)—how all those things are written to reflect romanticism. And it could just be wrong. An opposing understanding can be presented, and this understanding could "coincidentally" match that of other elements that would too lend to the opposite thought.

Depends. Everything depends after discussion. But there are reasonable limits, I'd say. Cloud and Tifa having the train roll scene exists only because of the recognition of the very common, romantic trope that it is—and this is down to even the trope specifics of HOW this was executed, shot for shot (so an argument of "breaking someone's fall = romance" is not true—it like most things are contextual). An author directly taking this trope from it's source and using it in the story by mistake, while not impossible in the sake of chance, is unlikely if to good faith believe that the author is cultured and understands media on basic levels. This, funny enough, does apply to Cloud and Aerith scenes too. For both, it's a problem for "rival ships" who don't want to accept it for whatever sense of conflict it gives them.

Shipping conversations are hard then because A LOT of it literally comes down to that. Someone's whole point of shipping is contingent on their read on the nature of scenes. Which is fine for the action of it, but in terms of discussions of "what to know", for the scene and beyond for greater narrative, it makes for all the complications previously spoken for.



I cut off the meat of this post just to keep my post shorter lol But this and everything is similar to where I fall for the most part. The Remake project has done things for Cloud and Aerith that hasn't been done before, like directly addressing the idea that a part of Cloud's bond with Aerith is false, which was never really a point. And I mean really, it wasn't directly. In OG and AC, Cloud has never expressed an idea that whatever he built with Aerith wasn't real and thus having a disconnect with who she is to him. (including that of any relationship he built with the Party) The ending of OG and AC's plot is expressive of the opposite really, and in concerns to Aerith—he didn't express guilt and regret for a false bond, but for one that is accepted and cherished. The idea of "unknowns" is mostly for Aerith in being aware that Cloud isn't fully himself, and even then, this never put her in a position where she treats her bond with Cloud as "not real" emotionally. And that includes the romantic aspect too, hence the Dawn of Koibito era.

Then Remake Project said "knock, knock". lol

The difference is that OG and AC also didn't address Cloud post-Lifestream thoughts on Aerith as directly romantic (again, to the rejoice of Cloti fans)—but this Remake project decided to specifically hone in on the concept of Cloud and Aerith both creating a false bond, specifically in romance. Never happened this way before. While for obvious reasons, Cloti fans rejoice at the premise of falsehood—for me personally, I don't like how this is approached so far if that is to be true. If the reason it isn't real is because Cloud isn't connected fully to his true self/memories (which yes, does connect to his love of Tifa), then it shouldn't JUST apply to romance though. It should apply to everything, and even that of the other party members. If the other components of his relationship with Aerith (and also that of his bond with everyone else) can be seen as something he carries over and never denies, then if he DOES feel romance towards Aerith, this should apply too. But, that's if he does, and from my point, it isn't written like it is, or at least not for what you could really, truly call romantic love.

Which to be clear, for 20+ year, this was always my stance—little, unexplored feelings of romance for Aerith, but a deeper, fuller understood love for Tifa. If Tifa is true love, then Aerith was simply potential felt within a situation where, because of his disconnect and awareness fully of the true love, he was more capable of feeling potential elsewhere.

With that said, I don't know what to think of what they're trying to do with Cloud and Aerith, if even for what outcome is going to have writing that I'd praise. Possibilities are reinforcing that it's not about his false persona, but rather the ultimate idea that you can't feel love for more than one person, even when complicated consciousness/memory shenanigans are at play. (i.e. His true self can only be in love with Tifa, so when he reconnects, any romanticism built is void) Though admittedly, I have a lot of issues with this commentary as a concept and in it's necessity to be told here. It's an unnecessary point if Cloud doesn't fall for Aerith anyway, thus wasting the commentary it was supposed to create. I have one friend who offers that while Cloud and Aerith can create a real, very close bond in every other aspect with his current state of being—romance is off the table because it's more special than anything else, and can only happen when you're truly yourself.

Meh. lol I'm a hopeless romantic, and even I say nah. You could easily capture how any emotion breaks barriers of limitations, and if you want to write a compelling story that shows the power of romance through this, that's awesome. In the case of Cloud and Aerith, it'd just have to be shown that the romantic feelings aren't on the same level as with Tifa, which Aerith herself will/does understand already, I'd bet.

I just have no idea if that's what Cloud and Aerith will do, especially when I can easily still imagine Cloud having a "hey, it was real for me" vague moment represented, and this being annoying because outside of what can be argued of romantic feelings they could be spun as he just isn't fully aware of them, certain moments in Rebirth should've been written differently if this is to be very convincing, because right now it's not that great....lol And if the grand meaning is "yes, Aerith was right and it wasn't real"—then this reinforces re-writting too of certain things as well, and I generally don't care for this, but if they're going for a "one true love" angle with no breathing room for potential romantic feelings, I still would've done things a bit differently.

I will simply say this: at the end of the day, if Cloud really fell in love with Aerith, Tifa’s character wouldn’t have been necessary to write. The fact that Tifa exists is the proof that Cloud never gets such romantic feelings for Aerith. This is not real life, this is a story written with a clear definition of roles and if they wanted to write the beyond death love for CA (from OG to the Re trilogy), there wouldn’t be a need for Tifa.

If Cloud fell in love with Aerith, it would be a terrible writing and I’d be so out so fast because it would be such an awful way to write Tifa: you basically create a love interest who is second best. Cloud was in love his while life but in 2 weeks she gets overshadowed by another girl? Why bother, get away girl, he doesn’t deserve you. I really wish people would put this in perspective because at the end of the day it’s a story and they decided to create Tifa specifically for Cloud. Imagine you can’t even hold up your part of the story and the reason why you’re an heroine.

Hate to sound so simple with all these great write ups but to me Cloud loves/loved Aerith but Tifa is the love of his life.

Yes he does love Aerith, it’s just not romantic! That’s Cody’s tweet all over - not everything is romantic.

I always felt like Cloud felt guilty for not being able to thank Aerith for all she did for him and for the planet itself and that he failed her in not being able to protect her when it most mattered. Remakes showed how he started losing his aloof attitude the more he spent with her. She saw through him and his farce of a personality and wanted to reach out to the Cloud within, and I think she did, He went from finding her annoying and clingy to being willing to step into the belly of the beast in 1 day.

For Cloud he feels very guilty because he was the reason why she left Midgar and got killed eventually.

Also that post about the memories is a very interesting and beautiful one @Heartstation so thank you. Memories are indeed a very powerful theme that links characters together: Cloud and Aerith as they create memories throughout the game, and we’ll see the Cloud and Tifa memories in p3 that will save him too (and more than this, what memories carry: feelings, hopes and dreams).

 

[frosty]

Hate to sound so simple with all these great write ups but to me Cloud loves/loved Aerith but Tifa is the love of his life.

LOL! Same. It's great that a piece of medium generates so much interest / discussions about what each woman means to Cloud and long, long write ups can be dedicated to either woman, but I've always followed the more, uh, simple and scientific approach i.e.

For a statement to be true, there has to be an absolute "truth" and a clear benchmark of what should be considered No (Completely platonic) or considered Yes (Romantic feelings). Everything in between this white and black is grey area. And in most media, the absolute no-negotiable benchmarks for a Yes for canon are:

• Both characters share a kiss on the mouth AND
• One character confesses their affection for the other, and the other reciprocates with a positive AND/OR
• They literally say to themselves or is told to the audience that are in love with one another

Bonus: in Japanese anime, canon means:

• The woman character somehow appears as a married, mother figure, sometimes wearing an apron, raising kids, post time-skip with the male character

And for Tifa:

• Both characters share a kiss on the mouth [Yes]
• One character confesses their affection for the other, and the other reciprocates with a positive response [Yes - Not one bit/ JP: Hold on to me ]
• They literally say to themselves or told to the audience that are in love with one another [Only Tifa at this point, in Traces of Two Past. Cloud - No]
• Bonus waifu figure [Yes]

And for Aerith:

• Both characters share a kiss on the mouth [No, when presented with the opportunity, they back away from one another]
• One character confesses their affection for the other, and the other reciprocates with a positive [No - liking or liking / You're acting weird]
• They literally say they are in love with one another [No]

Every argument i see for Aerith being the primary canon love interest always appears to me as the debator INSISTING and writing essay after essay that THIS shade of grey is actually black

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I will simply say this: at the end of the day, if Cloud really fell in love with Aerith, Tifa’s character wouldn’t have been necessary to write. The fact that Tifa exists is the proof that Cloud never gets such romantic feelings for Aerith. This is not real life, this is a story written with a clear definition of roles and if they wanted to write the beyond death love for CA (from OG to the Re trilogy), there wouldn’t be a need for Tifa.

If Cloud fell in love with Aerith, it would be a terrible writing and I’d be so out so fast because it would be such an awful way to write Tifa: you basically create a love interest who is second best. Cloud was in love his while life but in 2 weeks she gets overshadowed by another girl? Why bother, get away girl, he doesn’t deserve you. I really wish people would put this in perspective because at the end of the day it’s a story and they decided to create Tifa specifically for Cloud. Imagine you can’t even hold up your part of the story and the reason why you’re an heroine.

This reminds me more of a perspective that is grounded in plot lines, the typical ones, where the main character starts the story liking a character, meets a new one, and the story is about how the main character falls in love and eventually chooses the new one. I already know about five of this at the top of my head, for both male and female main character.

That's not FF7, though, and doesnt have to apply that way. In which, the avenue for Cloud to have any romantic inkling doesn't have to overshadow his feelings for Tifa or put him in a place where he has no choice but to choose Aerith. Media does reflect real life in certain degrees, as is to craft inspiration for meaning and themes, and it easily retains the complexities of it as well. Being intune with that level of storytelling and expression can be complicated though.

With that said, I do like simple things too. Cause hey, if it was up to me, like I said, it'd all be different. But I'm not writing this story, and it wouldn't be the first time FF7 has been represented in a way by SE that arches an eyebrow from me. That is only certain things though. Otherwise, while I was surprised by the CT kiss, that was on point to what should be a fulfilling story in Pt.3. My main concern is more towards Zack and Aerith, and whether that is going to be fulfilling.

 

[Heartstation]

I still see Cloud & Tifa’s relationship being unambiguously romantic while Cloud & Aerith’s being ambiguous up until the reveal, where it is reconteztualized as platonic, for the sake of the narrative.

Though, while the game doesn’t necessarily shut down a romantic interpretation if you prefer to see it that way, it’s still imo not encouraging that perspective either given it simultaneously sets up Zack & Aerith, & even new players now have clear Cloud and Zack friendship context.
Even concerning Aerith’s side of things, she herself has ruminated on the actual nature of her feelings in the church scene & couldn’t say for certain they were romantic.

I do think that the silent carry-over of her resolution scene in Remake will be that the eventual “reveal” of Real Cloud’s romantic feelings having always been aimed at Tifa clarifies to players that, even if they “fell in love” with Aerith, or believed to any extent that Cloud fell in love with her, that it was always illusionary to an extent. Or maybe even that the illusion all along was the aspect of choice, in terms of love interest, to begin with.

But of course, there’s always the possibility that it will have a more direct scene where Cloud believes he has feelings for an Aerith that isn’t there, I just personally feel this would not be received well by…anyone? And considering Cloud & Tifa will still end together, to get to a good place following that decision would be so messy I just can’t see how they’d execute that gracefully. Especially considering we have so much ground to cover for this finale.

Aerith’s “At least now, I know where you & I stand” is enough closeout for that, personally.

 

[lyingbanana]

But of course, there’s always the possibility that it will have a more direct scene where Cloud believes he has feelings for an Aerith that isn’t there, I just personally feel this would not be received well by…anyone? A

I would hate an explicit "rejection" scene, the liking/liking scene between Cloud and Aerith has a perfect ambiguity to it without the scene feeling dumb down. There's nothing more infuriating to me than when writers dont trust their audience to connect the dots. I know there are people in this fandom that willfully (or not) wont connect it but the story shouldnt suffer for those "interpretations"

The best would be going forward to keep developing CT and ZA as they have been, there will still be moments for CA as it was in OG, and if people want to see it as romantic they forever will. But as long as CT/ZA have a proper ending then that should be it, and with all the set ups so far, i'd like to believe they will stick the landing with the romance in FF7

 

[Ryushikaze]

A rejection scene for Aerith would require Cloud to be aware that she was actually into him, and despite everything he's officially not aware of it. His obliviousness is the rejection, in its own way.

 

[Ryeleigh]

A rejection scene for Aerith would require Cloud to be aware that she was actually into him, and despite everything he's officially not aware of it. His obliviousness is the rejection, in its own way.

Kind of like that trope "It's obvious if you're looking for it [it being romantic feelings]"?

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I still see Cloud & Tifa’s relationship being unambiguously romantic while Cloud & Aerith’s being ambiguous up until the reveal, where it is reconteztualized as platonic, for the sake of the narrative.

Though, while the game doesn’t necessarily shut down a romantic interpretation if you prefer to see it that way, it’s still imo not encouraging that perspective either given it simultaneously sets up Zack & Aerith, & even new players now have clear Cloud and Zack friendship context.
Even concerning Aerith’s side of things, she herself has ruminated on the actual nature of her feelings in the church scene & couldn’t say for certain they were romantic.

I do think that the silent carry-over of her resolution scene in Remake will be that the eventual “reveal” of Real Cloud’s romantic feelings having always been aimed at Tifa clarifies to players that, even if they “fell in love” with Aerith, or believed to any extent that Cloud fell in love with her, that it was always illusionary to an extent. Or maybe even that the illusion all along was the aspect of choice, in terms of love interest, to begin with.

But of course, there’s always the possibility that it will have a more direct scene where Cloud believes he has feelings for an Aerith that isn’t there, I just personally feel this would not be received well by…anyone? And considering Cloud & Tifa will still end together, to get to a good place following that decision would be so messy I just can’t see how they’d execute that gracefully. Especially considering we have so much ground to cover for this finale.

Aerith’s “At least now, I know where you & I stand” is enough closeout for that, personally.

I know a lot of shippers function on a "if X character has feelings [of even the smallest range] for another, then X relationship can't happen" mentality—this just isn't an absolute premise at least, never has been for a bunch of media that is even more complicated and expressive than FF7. Some fans will do everything they can to shut down the existence of romantic feelings, even retroactively—really Clerith fans who do this towards Zerith are the worst offenders to me because of how much they try to recontextualize a whole game like Crisis Core, and now Zack's goals in Rebirth. I've seen certain people do everything in their power to push the idea that Aerith having any feelings towards Zack in death is null because of Cloud, which was always a false narrative, if directly on the conceptual level of how emotions/context like this work.

But for Cloud and Aerith—somewhere between guessing what they're going to do vs. what they should based on what they want to represent/what they already have, is where I'm not at a convinced point until Part 3 plays out. There's a deeper analysis that I have to go into the why, but it'd better for a fuller post I'd make some other time. Cloud and Tifa will be fine, the one thing I'm sure of, so I'm not even thinking about them, which is a good thing. lol But Zack and Aerith—there's such a range of what they can give them (more on what I expect from writing consistency), and for a context I've been waiting for YEARS to finally be given more thoroughly, I'm nervous. I don't need a FFX-2.5 all over again, for goodness sake.

 

[Skilganon]

A rejection scene for Aerith would require Cloud to be aware that she was actually into him, and despite everything he's officially not aware of it. His obliviousness is the rejection, in its own way.

I always thought Cloud was aware of her feelings but didn't think her flirtation was serious and didn't want to hurt Aerith's feelings in the church (albeit, calling her weird may have already hurt her feelings, but that is perfectly in line with socially awkward Cloud).

I always find it odd how shippers create this platonic/romantic binary and act like any fictional relationship has to be completely one or the other and these are the only options.

I can't really see the CA relationship as it's presented as strictly platonic. If we agree that the way Aerith acts toward Cloud is flirtatious, and that Cloud flirts back to an extent, then I don't think we can call it platonic. I would call it ambiguously romantic. It can be seen as romantic if you want to.

As opposed to the moments with Tifa where there is a clear physical attraction between them. There are moments when Cloud is obviously trying to flirt with her and no matter how awkward it is, she ends up liking it. I would say the CT relationship is more supported by the evidence, that is, if we had to choose one exclusive love interest for the character and had to pit Aerith against Tifa. To say nothing of the CT backstory and NIbelheim etc.

In both cases what's holding the relationship back is Cloud's amnesia and identity crisis.

 

[lyingbanana]

I always thought Cloud was aware of her feelings but didn't think her flirtation was serious and didn't want to hurt Aerith's feelings in the church (albeit, calling her weird may have already hurt her feelings, but that is perfectly in line with socially awkward Cloud).

If I understand what you are saying is that Cloud is aware of Aerith's feelings for him but doesnt think she's serious and even at times flirts back. So when she confesses at the church he doesnt want to hurt her feelings? Because this opens some perhaps unintended questions about Cloud's character.

I agree it can be read as not extrictly platonic but whenever CA are written in a more serious manner they have been very careful to stop them short.

I think how @Heartstation put it is the most beautiful way I have seen CA described. (And the whole concept of memories)

 

[frosty]

I always thought Cloud was aware of her feelings but didn't think her flirtation was serious and didn't want to hurt Aerith's feelings in the church (albeit, calling her weird may have already hurt her feelings, but that is perfectly in line with socially awkward Cloud).

I always thought that

• The scene where if you get Aerith's date the first time in the Gold Saucer was to solidify Cloud's character as being pretty innocently oblivious to even aggressive flirtations with a tendency to dismiss it as friendship and Aerith getting huffy about it, I took it as her being, I'VE BEEN SHOWING YOU ALL THE SAME SIGNS YOU DUMBASSS"
• The scene in Nibelhiem where he was like "he was head over heels for Aerith" re. Zack, feels they should tell her about his "death" is being concerned about Aerith, and he wants to do the "right" thing and clearly not interested at pursing anything romantic at this point
• Tifa's date being - "She must still have feelings for Zack"

It all implies he was taken by surprise at the dream date, thinking she was still hung up on Zack - I felt the devs were going with his expression of more "oh damn, I didn't think of that" at her confession, than "whoops, I guess I led her on"

To think that he was completely aware of her interest in him, flirted back knowing of her interest, then backed out upon her confession seems...a little too mean spirited to me

 

[Ryushikaze]

Kind of like that trope "It's obvious if you're looking for it [it being romantic feelings]"?

A bit yeah. He just wasn't looking, because his eyes were already elsewhere

I always thought Cloud was aware of her feelings but didn't think her flirtation was serious and didn't want to hurt Aerith's feelings in the church (albeit, calling her weird may have already hurt her feelings, but that is perfectly in line with socially awkward Cloud).

I always find it odd how shippers create this platonic/romantic binary and act like any fictional relationship has to be completely one or the other and these are the only options.

I can't really see the CA relationship as it's presented as strictly platonic. If we agree that the way Aerith acts toward Cloud is flirtatious, and that Cloud flirts back to an extent, then I don't think we can call it platonic. I would call it ambiguously romantic. It can be seen as romantic if you want to.

As opposed to the moments with Tifa where there is a clear physical attraction between them. There are moments when Cloud is obviously trying to flirt with her and no matter how awkward it is, she ends up liking it. I would say the CT relationship is more supported by the evidence, that is, if we had to choose one exclusive love interest for the character and had to pit Aerith against Tifa. To say nothing of the CT backstory and NIbelheim etc.

In both cases what's holding the relationship back is Cloud's amnesia and identity crisis.

I don't think he's trying to flirt with her so much as he's trying to be cool and joke with her, and it can come across as flirting, partly because he has been called oblivious to her intentions and he does get uncomfortable when she calls things dates.

I always thought that

• The scene where if you get Aerith's date the first time in the Gold Saucer was to solidify Cloud's character as being pretty innocently oblivious to even aggressive flirtations with a tendency to dismiss it as friendship and Aerith getting huffy about it, I took it as her being, I'VE BEEN SHOWING YOU ALL THE SAME SIGNS YOU DUMBASSS"
• The scene in Nibelhiem where he was like "he was head over heels for Aerith" re. Zack, feels they should tell her about his "death" is being concerned about Aerith, and he wants to do the "right" thing and clearly not interested at pursing anything romantic at this point
• Tifa's date being - "She must still have feelings for Zack"

It all implies he was taken by surprise at the dream date, thinking she was still hung up on Zack - I felt the devs were going with his expression of more "oh damn, I didn't think of that" at her confession, than "whoops, I guess I led her on"

To think that he was completely aware of her interest in him, flirted back knowing of her interest, then backed out upon her confession seems...a little too mean spirited to me

Honestly, I'm not even sure he realizes in during the Dream sequence either. Aerith comes to a realization though, and it's not one she's particularly happy about.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

IMHO Cloud is not as oblivious in regards to the girls as people paint him to be. He acts if he is BOTH interested or not interested and takes action accordingly too. Examples:
A)Jessie he tells her "are you that desperate"
B)Aerith he tells her "not to call everything a date", "another cheap date" "You are acting weird" a lots more.
C)Tifa when they are in the Skywheel Gondola "Again", "Not one Bit" and more.
He might not have experience with ladies but he is not dumb neither, He catches on what they are telling him, He knows what they mean clearly. If you do not believe me, just watch his facial expressions/ body language. He acts just like Tifa; if interested he acts, and if not he deflects not to hurt feelings. ReTrilogy Cloud is not the same as OG Cloud who expressed himself with [. . .] when questioned.

 

[Skilganon]

It's not Cloud's fault if he's not interested, lol. Unless you meant "if they were mutually romantically interested, it wouldn't work because of Cloud"?

I could have worded that better. What I meant to say was something like: Aerith's death is a great tragedy, but another tragedy is how oblivious Cloud acts when she's trying to discuss deep topics like his identity and her earlier relationship. It's not until after her death that she figures it out, if ever.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

I could have worded that better. What I meant to say was something like: Aerith's death is a great tragedy, but another tragedy is how oblivious Cloud acts when she's trying to discuss deep topics like his identity and her earlier relationship. It's not until after her death that she figures it out, if ever.

That's the thing with the plot of FF7, Of course he is going to be oblivious but is not intentional from his part. The problem with Cloud is so deep within his subconscious that no-one , not even Cloud himself knows what's really going on, up until he lets Tifa get inside and helps him solve the puzzle of his mind.