SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Skilganon]

I've seen some posts suggesting that the reason Elmyra and Marlene show up in the alternate world is that they are dreaming in the real world. Though there is no evidence to back this up.

There's too many inconsistencies like this to devise any consistent theory, which is why I am reluctant to make any hard predictions for part three. Anything could happen.

 

[Eerie]

I disagree, I think given the established lore of FFVII, it’s not that hard to create a solid theory. I’ll try to post over this weekend about what happens exactly IMHO.

 

[null]

To me, what’s happening with the Lifestream doesn’t feel like standard lore, i.e. it’s not primarily there to establish and reinforce the fictional world. Lore explains why things are the way they are, what can and can’t be done, and creates a sense of depth and immersion. Lore is about the setting. It grounds the story.

But this is more like Instrumentality in Evangelion, or PATHS in Attack on Titan, a narrative device that lets the writers break the rules of storytelling. It allows them to ignore time and space, and create scenes and accomplish things that shouldn’t be possible. There’s a lore aspect to it such that our suspension of disbelief is protected - they’re not trying to insult our intelligence - but it’s mainly in service of narrative freedom rather than grounding the story. And the more the writers explain exactly how it works, the less freedom they have to wield it.

My opinion is that the primary function of the Lifestream mechanics is to allow Sephiroth, Aerith and Zack to be involved in the story when they otherwise shouldn’t be onscreen. Driving anticipation for part 3 is a secondary goal. Revealing the particulars to everyone’s satisfaction isn’t necessarily the highest priority; I only say that because these sorts of devices rarely get fully explained. However, if we do get a lore dump so spectacular the Dwemer of Elder Scrolls blush through their disappeared beards, I would be thrilled.

And of course I look forward to the theories. The fans usually have more interesting ideas anyway (definitely was the case before Rebirth came out).

 

[Skilganon]

a narrative device that lets the writers break the rules of storytelling. It allows them to ignore time and space, and create scenes and accomplish things that shouldn’t be possible. There’s a lore aspect to it such that our suspension of disbelief is protected - they’re not trying to insult our intelligence - but it’s mainly in service of narrative freedom rather than grounding the story. And the more the writers explain exactly how it works, the less freedom they have to wield it.

My opinion is that the primary function of the Lifestream mechanics is to allow Sephiroth, Aerith and Zack to be involved in the story when they otherwise shouldn’t be onscreen. Driving anticipation for part 3 is a secondary goal. Revealing the particulars to everyone’s satisfaction isn’t necessarily the highest priority; I only say that because these sorts of devices rarely get fully explained. However, if we do get a lore dump so spectacular the Dwemer of Elder Scrolls blush through their disappeared beards, I would be thrilled.

I agree with this assessment, but the problem with most theory-crafters is they think there is some intention of consistency on the part of the developers.

You are looking at things from the writer's perspective, which I think is more valid. I'm not one of these fans who expects the writers to 100% follow the laws of physics or else they are hacks. I don't expect the writers to adhere to pre-established lore.

I do expect good writers to create with purpose, that is, every piece of dialogue and story beat should matter to the overall story being told. The Remake series currently isn't giving me that impression.

The alternate worlds and other meta-textual elements don't seem like mysteries to be solved, but rather a transparent attempt to "keep people talking"(The devs have admitted this in interviews on multiple occasions). The resolution of all this can go one of two ways:

A: The alternate worlds are within the Lifestream. Zack really died like he did at the end of Crisis Core, and the Zack we see in the alternate worlds is his spirit attempting to hold onto his sense of self. Likewise is the world in which Cloud and Aerith have their dream date. There is only one physical world, the Beagle world. This is the world that Fate cares about and that Sephiroth wants to ultimately dominate. Aerith really died like she did in the OG, but she will now live on as a spirit possibly with Zack.

B: The alternate worlds are all equally real. Aerith will be saved by taking a version of her from an alternate world and reuniting her with Cloud. There are infinite Clouds, infinite Zacks, infinite Buster Swords. Together they will defeat Infinite Sephiroth. Cloud will merge with his OG self and Aerith will merge with her OG self and they will have interdimensional babies together etc. etc.

Even if I would prefer A, I still think that's a pretty bad resolution. Because it would render what goes on in these alternate worlds a lot less meaningful than before. Why should we care about an alternate Zack and Aerith if they are still dead in the one world that matters? Why bring up Fate if the story is going to be basically the same? If it does turn out the alternate worlds are an afterlife, then it would mean a major mystery of the Remake series has been utterly deflated. It would be like the authors waving their hands in front of your face just to pointlessly complicate the story they are telling. It would mean creating without purpose.

The best thing would have been to never introduce Fate or alternate worlds in the first place. If they wanted to include Zack earlier, then have flashbacks from Aerith's POV. It would be an easy way to introduce Zack without spoiling anything, and without people feeling like they need to immediately play Crisis Core to understand their relationship.

And I realize that misdirection is a common practice in story-telling, but that requires cleverness, like what was practiced in the OG. What we see in Remake is just Mystery-box Masturbation.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I would say .... FFX major spoiler territory WARNING.. does Tidus not matter because he's a does Auron not matter because of the truth about him?

I will say to some of the streamers I've watched they seem just as invested in the other worlds with Zack, the other Cloud, Aerith, Elmyra, Marlene, Biggs, etc, get curious about the potential of Kyrie joining Avalanche, and such. Well mainly these steamers have only played Remake and Rebirth though. They don't tend to act like Zack is dead or seem to think he is, they look forward to seeing him and new adventures again next time. Same with Aerith in the end, she's still "real" to them, they don't think it's the end.

Also what makes Beagle more "real", physical, superior? Isn't Beagle also a split? A potentially being dreamed out by the planet after the schism and fracturing on the Midgar Highway? Or has the planet always been dreaming

 

[Skilganon]

@Maidenofwar

We have to wait till part 3 to see where the alternate world plotline is going. IF it turns out Zack has been dead all this time and that Aerith is as well it will make it seem like SE provoked a lot of speculation as you describe, only to render it completely meaningless in the end. If it turns out the alternate worlds are just an afterlife, then all that investment was for nothing.

On the other hand, if all worlds are equally "dreams', then it becomes difficult to imagine any stakes in the story. The whole plot becomes one big Deus ex machina. The only reason people are invested in the adventures of alternate-world Zack is because they think it will interact with Cloud's world in some way. People already think the Beagle-verse is the most important because that's the world where Cloud and co. are hunting Sephiroth.

This whole thing brings up major issues with the OG plot. For example, if they reveal how Zack died in the OG, how do they square this with the beginning of Rebirth? Because the same thing is happening, but several weeks apart. Like, are there two sets of Zack and Cloud? Did Zack #1 come with Cloud #1, kick off the events of FFVII, but then Zack #2 and Cloud #2 arrive just as the party is trying to escape? It would feel incredibly strange as a new player. I think the Zack/Cloud plotline is completely botched by the alternate world plotline.

Also, the true events of Nibelheim. I've seen multiple streamers conclude that Cloud and Tifa's discrepencies over their stories is the result of multiple timelines. The alternate worlds have made the story harder to understand. And for what?

I'm hoping for some kind of inexplicable third option that surprises me.

Also, Tidus and Auron exist in the same world as Yuna and the rest of the party for the entirety of FFX, so I don't see how the comparison is valid. Zack is missing in Beagle-verse, that's the difference.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Auron was missing in Spira when he went to Zanarkand. But this is exactly why I've been saying Zack died but isn't dead. He's effectively the same as an unsent, he's just in a world dreamed inside the planet instead of a city on the ocean.
All the other people in the other worlds are just as real as the people who lived in Zanarkand, but also just as ephemeral.

 

[Skilganon]

@Ryushikaze

So when Zack and Aerith fade away at the end like the Fayth of Zanarkand, how do you think people will react? Personally, I would feel a bit disappointed that this was hyped up only to turn into FFX 2.0.

 

[gulava]

@Ryushikaze

So when Zack and Aerith fade away at the end like the Fayth of Zanarkand, how do you think people will react? Personally, I would feel a bit disappointed that this was hyped up only to turn into FFX 2.0.

to be fair; the writers kept hammering down how the overall outline of the game will remain similar to the original with some ‘minor’ additions inbetween

 

[Skilganon]

There's a recent video by the Youtube creator SubTXT about Rebirth's ending, which I think is brilliant. It lays out all the central questions, apprehensions, and possibilities of the Remake trilogy. I agree with the main idea.

The characters have talked too much about "changing Fate" for it all to just fade into Advent Children in the end. I believe part 3 needs to bring a definitive end to the FFVII storyline. Most likely, Fate will change when Sephiroth is ultimately defeated (Which I hope will coincide with salvation for the Gi). This would ensure that AC never happens. I mean, Cloud and Tifa might be living together in a new bar, but I don't think Sephiroth will be back.

A lot of shippers have issues with this idea because "changing Fate" could mean changes to FFVII romance plot. It introduces the possibility of Aerith living and ending up with Cloud. However, I feel like this fear comes from ascribing to the devs a pre-occupation with shipping, that the devs think as much about romance as the most rabid fans do.

The heart of the FFVII story has always been about Cloud's journey. Looking at Rebirth, we can see that the reveals in the Lifestream about Cloud's feelings for Tifa have been well set up, primarily in conversations with Aerith, but also in the Gongaga scene. I don't have any doubt there will be romantic scenes surpassing those in the OG.

I think the devs are painfully aware that when fans hear Aerith talking about "Changing Fate", she must be talking about her death or shipping, and I think they might be using this tendency to misdirect people. No one ever wants to discuss any other kind of possibility.

 

[gulava]

There's a recent video by the Youtube creator SubTXT about Rebirth's ending, which I think is brilliant. It lays out all the central questions, apprehensions, and possibilities of the Remake trilogy. I agree with the main idea.

The characters have talked too much about "changing Fate" for it all to just fade into Advent Children in the end. I believe part 3 needs to bring a definitive end to the FFVII storyline. Most likely, Fate will change when Sephiroth is ultimately defeated (Which I hope will coincide with salvation for the Gi). This would ensure that AC never happens. I mean, Cloud and Tifa might be living together in a new bar, but I don't think Sephiroth will be back.

A lot of shippers have issues with this idea because "changing Fate" could mean changes to FFVII romance plot. It introduces the possibility of Aerith living and ending up with Cloud. However, I feel like this fear comes from ascribing to the devs a pre-occupation with shipping, that the devs think as much about romance as the most rabid fans do.

The heart of the FFVII story has always been about Cloud's journey. Looking at Rebirth, we can see that the reveals in the Lifestream about Cloud's feelings for Tifa have been well set up, primarily in conversations with Aerith, but also in the Gongaga scene. I don't have any doubt there will be romantic scenes surpassing those in the OG.

I think the devs are painfully aware that when fans hear Aerith talking about "Changing Fate", she must be talking about her death or shipping, and I think they might be using this tendency to misdirect people. No one ever wants to discuss any other kind of possibility.

as much as i would love for zack and aerith to survive their fates; i doubt it is possible after part2 release. the ending of part1 made everyone speculate their survival and how much the story would change by keeping the two alive. However, part2 still followed the og game and the events played out the same with aerith’s death at the end.

both of aerith and zack’s fates were deemed necessary by planet and LS; aerith had to die and lead the LS against sephiroth, and zack’s death is the precursor of cloud’s journey. Their ‘deaths’ are intertwined with the planet survival, and changing their fates would guarantee sephiroth’s win.

plus, the writers (in their interviews) disclosed their intent on following og ff7 + complications; thus removing any hope for zack and aerith overcoming their fatss. However, the fate of the planet itself is a whole different matter that could change as long as it ensures its existence.

edit; it is simply a theory of mine but i think the zack we see in this game isnt the og zack, but one from a failed timeline. he was used by sephiroth as a medium to alter ‘fate or ‘time travelling’ which is why we see him stuck in a loop, while aerith is the one from og7 following sephiroth through different timelines. so it not about them overcoming their demise but fighting to protect their fates from sephiroth’s schemes.

 

[Eerie]

A lot of shippers have issues with this idea because "changing Fate" could mean changes to FFVII romance plot. It introduces the possibility of Aerith living and ending up with Cloud. However, I feel like this fear comes from ascribing to the devs a pre-occupation with shipping, that the devs think as much about romance as the most rabid fans do.

It does not. If Aerith lives, I am happier as it doesn't prevent CT, and they are not depressed by her death. Sadly, she is already dead. Just as much as Zack, may I add.

If you want to look at my theory.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

A lot of shippers have issues with this idea because "changing Fate" could mean changes to FFVII romance plot. It introduces the possibility of Aerith living and ending up with Cloud. However, I feel like this fear comes from ascribing to the devs a pre-occupation with shipping, that the devs think as much about romance as the most rabid fans do.

I will just respond to this part because I saw this video and it was indeed brilliant. However, I think people misunderstood what he meant about Advent Children not happening.

It doesn't mean he thinks Aerith lives. He says that clearly in the video. In fact he makes it very clear he thinks she will die permanently and that she needs to.

I will add he didn't bring this up that it's not not just her but all the souls stuck in the Lifestream not passing thanks to Sephiroth's plan in Lifestream Black that leads to Advent Children and geostigma will have to fade away.

Otherwise Sephiroth will keep coming back because that is the current problem. He's finding a way to keep reviving and Aerith in the Lifestream can't just keep stopping him if things continue as they are.

So basically he thinks part 3 will break this cycle of Rebirth and when it breaks Aerith will fade away by joining the Lifestream because her work will be complete And she will find rest. Yes, very similar to Zanarkand and Tidus. And That is the reason he believes it won't lead to Advent Children but to a different outcome with Sephiroth defeated because he won't revive this time.

The video really had nothing to do with romance prospects and I also don't think Sephiroth being killed for good has much to do with that topic either. Thus, I don't see the reason for anyone to connect this theory with shipping or romance and I think it's a disservice and completely detracts from the point he was making which was why he things the final scene in Rebirth showed Aerith's death like it did.

I agree it does a disservice to think the devs think as much about shipping as us shippers do. Of course they don't. Their thoughts are more as you and @null said said finding something ways for plot threads to work.