SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Eerie

Fire and Blood
The Northern Crater is I think for us all and many others one of the most anticipated set pieces for Part 3.
Oh trust me, this is right there on the top of my waiting list with the LS scene lol.
Apparently I need to like the ship in order to think it's canon.
Yeah that's quite a recent trend I think in fandom, it's all very strange to me because when you watch a new anime that can span over the years (or read manga... same deal), your ship will not be canon before eons lol. Same with TV shows etc. And if I enjoy them, I'm not going to wait for years to ship them.
 

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
Natsuki Takaya, the author of Fruit Basket, ships Clerith. She draw few Clerith fanarts on her Twitter account. You give me the reason why that it does sound very intentional she doesnt root to childhood memory of the first love revealation to be endgame because she doesnt ship Cloti. Or maybe she feels the game also misleaded her, thus she wants to mislead her reader half way too.

I drop Fruit Basket because it's boring to me, sorry, so I dont remember the rest. At first, I love the premise about the characters being the animal of Chinese Lunar Year, so I see the fantasy potential plot in it. I dont like pure romance lol. But I remember I ship Kyo with Tohru because Kyo is like an outcast since cat doesnt exist. and I dont like the way Yuki is kinda bullying him as a loser, and usually shoujo will let the girl fell with this 'bad boy' type. Since I love tragedy, the ship that stuck in my head is Tohru's parents lol.

NOTE: When I talk about Japanese titles of anime such as Fruit Basket, Naruto, Bleach, etc; it's all the manga. I'm manga reader, not anime watcher.
I see. I'm not sure there's enough information to conclude that. For years I didn't even know that she shipped CA at all. Honestly until you told me. It could be but I don't know how she feels about canon.
I just know I always felt the way there was a bait and switch with Yuki and Tohru for the end game to be Kyo reminds me of my experience with the FF7 LTD and this and the Naruto LTD too is an example I always use to explain LTDs that have one couple pushed despite endgame being another. It's just something I noticed authors tend to do especially in manga. I personally don't know why they do it. It could be because they want to prolong the suspense for an ongoing manga. Or maybe they think it makes things interesting?

I don't know.

Yuki is the School Council president by the end. He's a nerd. Definitely not a bad boy lol. I love his character development with Kyo there's a reason they hated eachother but by the end I really appreciate their relationship.
 
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Skilganon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tim
I just know I always felt the way there was a bait and switch with Yuki and Tohru for the end game to be Kyo reminds me of my experience with the FF7 LTD and this and the Naruto LTD too is an example I always use to explain LTDs that have one couple pushed despite endgame being another. It's just something I noticed authors tend to do especially in manga. I personally don't know why they do it. It could be because they want to prologue the suspense for an ongoing manga. Or maybe they think it makes things interesting?
It gets weirder when the story in question is a Remake/reimagining. It introduces a new kind of suspense, because whatever ending the Remake has, it's going to be seen as the definitive version of the story.

It's already happening with the EC date shenanigans. None of those date events happened in Remake or OG. How canon is it? Does it affect the direction of the Remake series?

There's only so many times SE can run through the story of FFVII before people get tired of it.
 

lyingbanana

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
A banana
To bring this point back to the topic at hand, I think that even if part 3 has both the Lifestream scene and the Highwind scene, and they are true to their original incarnations, I think that some of our friends on the other side of the debate will not make peace with these outcomes. They will continue to fight the good fight.
I fully believe that even if the third part is extremely explicit CT and it still ends with "I think I can meet her there" then the bad faith takes will continue forever.

Not saying they should change the line more that some people really dont care about the story.
 

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
It gets weirder when the story in question is a Remake/reimagining. It introduces a new kind of suspense, because whatever ending the Remake has, it's going to be seen as the definitive version of the story.

It's already happening with the EC date shenanigans. None of those date events happened in Remake or OG. How canon is it? Does it affect the direction of the Remake series?

There's only so many times SE can run through the story of FFVII before people get tired of it.
Mm. Considering gachas are just to make money I wouldn't personally think too much about it in terms of canon. I would see it as a treat for the fans but not really as any end all be all.

I think with manga since it's the primary source usually, I would think they have more weight for canon than a spin off game for fanservice. Same with the actual game I would think it has more weight than a gacha game spin off.

Marketing can be done for many reasons but usually I think they just want money and they're not about to alienate part of their fan base so they give everyone something cute.
I haven't yet read or seen Fruits Basket. :(

As for Naruto, I personally never got that vibe from those two.

Though, funny enough and kind of keeping on the topic:

G.O.D: Mezameyo to Yobu Koe ga Kikoe: Has a blond soldier character who falls in love with a female character who just so happens to have a pink character sprite, lol. It's implied they have sex at an inn one night and then you lose the female character as a party member when you find out she's pregnant. I was so innocent, I was all, "oh that's so cool, I've never lost a party member because of pregnancy before." And then she gets killed in an attack and the blond soldier goes immediately berserk and leaves the party to chase after the character who killed her. At one point, the characters talk about meeting God™ and I thought that maybe this meant we could get the female character back! But when the game introduced another love interest for the blond soldier I realized it wasn't happening, alas. I missed that female character, she was so much better than the character who replaced her. :( Well, at least the blond soldier didn't spend his whole life alone.

This is why I find it a bit funny when thinking about the LTD because FF7 does nothing like this. Instead, Cloud says that only another female character's opinion matters and eventually confesses that she's always been the raison d'être of his character.

Shadow Hearts 1 and 2: The main character's love interest dies in the first game and then in the second game he meets another female main character. He repeatedly ogles her body, imagines her naked, or in revealing (....well, more revealing) clothes. She's shown to be one to worry about him the most, have faith him in, nurse him, and eventually she outright confesses to him. They also have a lot of private moments of bonding. And you might at this point think that the game is building her up as a second love interest? And you would be dead wrong because PLOT TWIST: she turns out to be the main character's mother through time travel/paradox shenanigans. The lesson here is that sometimes a story might give the illusion of a love interest, only for that love interest to turn out to be the mother.

I actually kind of guessed the mother twist when the main character said his mother must've named him after her first love but I dismissed the intuition as implausible.


Shadow Hearts was honestly one of the more bizarre games I've played in a while.
I wasn't ignoring you I just needed time to read everything.

I don't know what Mezameyo to Yobu Koe ga Kikoe is but that actually sounds really interesting.

I also don't know what the heck is happening with Shadow Hearts but that is very weird but intriguing and I really wonder what the heck it's about. Sounds a bit like they watched Back To The Future and decided hey that's a cool plot twist lol. Still very interesting lol. Also reminds me of When Marnie Was There.

Edit: Autocorrect is so weird. Fixed it.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I don't really mind if something is by chance or by fate. I just don't see these two concepts as the same. But that was never the issue.

I think you misunderstood. I don't like stories revolving around fate if by fate it means I know the outcome will be guaranteed because the characters are meant to be together from the beginning and all signs point to it. If I figure out the ending of the story I won't usually stick around to see the rest. Unless something else is keeping me there. If they met by chance and their life is a series of random circumstances and this was still the case I still would have the exact same opinion.

I haven't explained the difference between the two because it doesn't exactly matter to me if it's by fate or by chance to dissect that. I know the ending of the story because it's obvious. Being obvious that's "the issue". My issue with tropes of Childhood Friends To Lovers is not "fate" alone, is that it's obvious. But someone asked me if I think CT is feels fated and yes I see them as such and I can't unsee it because of the symbolism I described. Reading back I already pointed out that yes we can say CA death is because of fate. But whether it it is or not, no matter what word I use to describe it the stories are still very different for CA and CT. Where one is literally reunited and the other is not. Call it what you will. Fate, chance whatever. They reunited.

But it's not that I like things if they're revolving around chance only and any mention of fate is suddenly bad. It's that I like not knowing the outcome. I like the uncertainty. I like being tricked by the narrative. I like it when things are not so straight forward. I like when it's not super obvious the main couple will get together. By chance or fate or whatever. And the mere fact a couple that ends up together at the end of the world with a promise that binds them and reunites after years of being apart is to me very unsurprising and very par for the course. Based on the tropes involved especially.

If you say that CT actually met or reunited by chance (I definitely don't see it because of the symbolism of the starry sky and a promise that binds them and the reunion rug but) sure I can live with that. If you say CA is fated too I can also live with that. My opinion and impression is still the same though.

The "advantage" CA has here in winning my interest was not only do they not get together, one of them dies. ZA too has this "advantage." Now because of this there is uncertainty in the will they ever see each other again? How will that turn out aspect. It gives it the impression of not being so clear cut a story as one of about people I know will reunite.

Edit: Made it even clearer. And just in case: No I don't think fate as a theme is terrible in every instance nor do I think it is bad writing.
Mostly I was asking because I wasn't understanding how specifically you saw 'chance' and 'fate' as being signified differently from each other such that something seemed fated versus seeming to happen by chance, but you explaining it as being obvious versus being surprising helped make a lot more sense to me. It wasn't a value judgement, I just wasn't fully comprehending your criteria. I think I get it now, anyways.

For me, a foregone conclusion isn't necessarily less interesting than one that's up in the air, especially if there are trials and tribulations in getting to an obvious ending. Knowing the how is as much fun as knowing the finale in my book. For some people knowing the twist ahead of time ruins a story, but I very often see them coming to the journey through them is more interesting than the twist itself.

That's just me, though.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
Actually, I wanted to defend about BLEACH yesterday but it'd be OOT so I dismissed it.

Anyway, I'm tired of this "Aerith vs Tifa" debate as Canon!Rosa on twitter, especially because Ever Crisis bring it back with title or something. Idgaf at all about it like.... does it matter? is it relevant to the canon pair? It's an acting whoever the actress is and even Cloud is an actor! Heck, what if I said Yuffie is the canon one?

FF7 Rebirth illustrate LOVELESS Play as VR where everybody can experience with themselves playing the leading roles. So to me, all interpretations are valid because each will see their pairings as the Alphreid and Rosa. Heck, even ZAs can see it as ZA (yes, I spot my ZA moots do that too), though I dont. Reason why I dont:

...because according to the official interpretation, Zack is not the Prisoner, Genesis is. The Play only covers Act II-III through the POV of the girl whom the Prisoner fall in love with. Zack is the Hero who save the Prisoner's life (next Act). Zack is main lead of CCFF7 (hero), doesnt mean he's also the main lead of LOVELESS (prisoner) since the story make Genesis being nerd about it. I dont think the story sound like CA or CT in parallel, either. The girl/princess is from the enemy faction who helped the prisoner.

People are focus more in the last line of the LOVELESS Play, just as Cid and Kunsel. The play itself is one of the poem's interpretation. So to me, every interpretation is valid even if I imagine Genesis playing Alphreid with Jessie as his Rosa. It just exists like any Shakespeare's play in our world. Do you feel yourself as Hamlet or Romeo? Or you feel like you're the actor/actress who play the leading roles when you take the seat in the theatre?

The only canon is Aerith singing, and yes, the song title does sound connected to the last lines shared between Alphreid and Rosa (and apparently Alphreid is played by Cloud that's why both CT and CA want their girl to be his Rosa). But I think that's why Aerith wins the competition to sing although it reflects her own feelings for everyone she meets, not because she imagined herself as Rosa with Cloud as her Alphreid.
 
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Skilganon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tim
Aerith is the canon Rosa. Cloud's promise to reunite with her foreshadows Aerith's revival and their reunion in part 3. It's all there in the symbolism. /s
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
Not even as tropes. People are using these characters as paper dolls they like the appearance of to cast completely different characters onto. Not only is the CA Cloud nothing like narrative Cloud, he's not even the same Cloud moment to moment. He's whatever character is needed to claim victory at any given moment. To your point about being a villain, many CA say "he's only a womanizer if you go the Tifa route" as if Tifa coming to check on Cloud makes him a literal different character than if Barret, Yuffie, Cait or Aerith do it.
Yeah, I really don't get that? I mean, if people treat characters like infinitely malleable paper dolls, doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose of fanfiction and shipping them? But I guess it's easier to use established characters as OCs in an established world? I don't know, lol.

I wasn't ignoring you I just needed time to read everything.

I don't know what Mezameyo to Yobu Koe ga Kikoe is but that actually sounds really interesting.

I also don't know what the heck is happening with Shadow Hearts but that is very weird but intriguing and I really wonder what the heck it's about. Sounds a bit like they watched Back To The Future and decided hey that's a cool plot twist lol. Still very interesting lol. Also reminds me of When Marnie Was There.
It's cool! The thread moves fast, lol!

Mezameyo is an 1996 RPG for SNES. And Shadow Hearts are games for PS2. They were definitely experiences, lol, so if people really like video games in all their forms and differences, I guess I would recommend them just on that basis?
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Aerith I think is the canon Rosa because PC release datamine revealed the dress design, it's the same as the songstress dress but with the parts added. The story boards for the game show Aerith as Rosa in the Princess dress. It seems when her song was later added to be sung in game they just modified the dress some. In Ever Crisis the Fool/Cait says the line about a chance encounter ends in a sad farewell, that and other parts seem like foreshadowing to Rebirth's endgame, and the stand off Sephiroth vs Cloud/Aerith too. I think the hug can be a nice parallel to the church hug too. There's other stuff like Judgement Ray being an Aerith move, but I don't want to get into this discourse too much because if people think Tifa looks better as Rosa or performs Aerith's moves better than Aerith herself (I saw someone say this) there's nothing I can really do about that.

I think they have different incarnations of Loveless, and Rebirth showed parts of two versions yes. I do think CC leans more towards the "Three soldiers" and Rebirth to Cloud/Aerith/Sephiroth.

SE seems to have been fairly consistent with mostly pushing Aerith as Princess Rosa, not just with EC, but in things like Rebirth Ultimania Main Story Digest, etc as well, but until they move more firmly into part 3's cycle we can't really say for definite.

PS just because I'm CA and would like to see a revival and reuniting doesn't mean necessarily mean a romantic endgame. Yes, the play could parallel Rebirth's endgame and they could revisit that in some way, but part 3's story still has to be factored in as well. Of course I don't want to see Aerith dead and gone and dream she will reunite with the party, doesn't mean it'll happen. Same with Zack, that he's somehow not really gone, that he can come with, to meet the party again too. At the least there is some sort of closure with his parents and Gongaga.

I will say this, the devs didn't want to really change Aerith's date and "I want to meet you" they thought Aerith and the Gold Saucer was memorable/iconic. The OG/Rebirth/EC dates stay similar, it seems the OG date is part of the story. Again they seem fairly consistent with this but we can't yet say for definite it will have part 3 carry over. Even if it does and Aerith is canon for Rebirth it still doesn't necessarily equate to romantic endgame.

That's why I'm not surprised if for the end of the Ever Crisis event they let you go on the gondola with Aerith, Tifa, Barret, Yuffie, as options but went with Aerith as the main date, coming to the room, play, etc for narrative purpose. It was the promised I will go out with you again. People remember the I will go out with you for being a bodyguard, it's part of Aerith's story.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
There is just no canon date as none happened in the game. That’s about it they are what ifs situations. All high affections dates are expansions of their normal dates counterparts BTW and Aerith’s sad, Tifa’s romantic, Barret’s bro, Yuffie’s sisterly… you get it. And you see it more in their normal dates too.

But there is no canon Rosa as there is no canon date, it’s kinda stupid imho to fight over this.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Agree to disagree here as the Ultimania used Aerith as romantic and the devs said some were romantic and some were familial. At the end of the day CAs are going to find the gondola romantic even if also sad. Even a new streamer I followed most recently found her date with Aerith at Gold Saucer romantic especially the gondola. With the sadness not hitting as much as she's only played Remake and Rebirth and not OG or anything else nor watched the movie. I think she's the type of streamer that doesn't watch old stuff though because she said the only other FF she's played is 16. She is doing more side quests now she beat the game so she might see Tifa intimate date eventually but I think she'll still think Aerith's is romantic too. It also depends how much more of Rebirth she plays before her next game comes out if she sees the other dates.

There also has to be a canon date because it's hard coded into the mechanics that the church line changes if you date Aerith. I will make my own video on this eventually since people don't seem to trust the guy that made one already.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
It's romantic from Aerith but did you watch her normal date? It's so sad yikes. Cloud is literally looking away as she's clinging onto him and needs comfort and some semblance of romance from the guy who plays her boyfriend.

And there is no canon date period, the devs have insisted on it. They want us to watch them all but NONE happened, there are what ifs situations.
 

Someonesbunny

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Rabbit
There also has to be a canon date because it's hard coded into the mechanics that the church line changes if you date Aerith.

Is this an argument that because there is something that references this moment later in the story, that it proves the canonicity of the event? And if so, does this argument not also suggest that CT's Gongaga near-kiss is referenced by the fulfillment of that kiss in Chapter 12? Because that is also hard coded into the mechanics that you can get the kiss that you missed out on if you specifically date Tifa.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
What's also hard coded is how Cloud responds to everybody on their dates, and THAT is a fuckton more important than who drags him out of bed.
Also the game is specifically structured such that it makes sense no matter which date you get.

And given that Aerith getting a Solo was a last minute change, the songstress dress being a stripped down version of a design that already existed just makes a lot of developmental sense.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
I have no arguments with that @Someonesbunny

I just want a coherent story, with continuity is all. To me if Rosa Tifa was the one in the credits and used in Main Story Digest/Playback I'd go with that too. For me it's not just the dream date but also Sleeping Forest where Aerith tells Cloud to focus on you Cloud, the real one, the one I've been trying so hard to find, that also ties with Aerith date. Another streamer I watched that got Tifa c12 said they maybe they should have gone with Aerith after c14 because they were confused.

I think via the story boards the outfit was originally designed for Aerith and then modified for the Tifa, Yuffie, and hair down songstress Rosa versions, with some accessories, etc added. Again I might think different if another girl was used for four out of six plays and the credits and story boards, but that's just me.

I also think Aerith dragging Cloud out of bed works well because he just sort of dreamed about her, woke up, then back to sleep and we had Terrier Aerith, Cloud, Zack, but again just me.
 

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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I have no arguments with that @Someonesbunny

I just want a coherent story, with continuity is all. To me if Rosa Tifa was the one in the credits and used in Main Story Digest/Playback I'd go with that too. For me it's not just the dream date but also Sleeping Forest where Aerith tells Cloud to focus on you Cloud, the real one, the one I've been trying so hard to find, that also ties with Aerith date. Another streamer I watched that got Tifa c12 said they maybe they should have gone with Aerith after c14 because they were confused.

I think via the story boards the outfit was originally designed for Aerith and then modified for the Tifa, Yuffie, and songstress Rosa versions, with some accessories, etc added. Again I might think different if another girl was used for four out of six plays and the credits and story boards, but that's just me.
"It showed up in the credits" is definitely a reach for "this totally happened" given in Remake there were mutually exclusive segments of Wall Market featured.
All the dates are important, all the girls are Rosa. I could just as easily make an argument that Tifa should be Rosa due to stage blocking during a cast bow etc. but it really doesn't matter. The dates exist to give information, not to be official one or the other. All of them are canon, and none of them are.
 

AncientGrim

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
ReGrim
I think arguments in general around the loose canonicity of either Princess Rosa in the Loveless play, and the Gold Saucer dates themselves, is a dead end anyway.

The credits and datamined discoveries about the development that lines up with Ultimania statements etc. doesn’t alter the facts and again, the context, about these scenes.

Aerith as Princess Rosa and her Gold Saucer date being canon doesn’t suddenly alter the context. And it definitely doesn’t alter the context of the dream date in the church, low affinity or high affinity or not.

In fact all three, Aerith as Rosa, her Gold Saucer date, and the dream date, massively serve to reinforce the idea that this romance is one that isn’t meant to be. And not only that, but that it isn’t real, it’s a red herring, an illusion.

Aerith as Rosa, and Cloud as Alphreid, are merely acting out parts in a play. They aren’t even properly acting out on stage like in the OG. It’s a literal virtual alternate reality being projected.

And in this respect, I agree that it makes more sense for Aerith to be Rosa, because it furthers along the beats and themes in her story and in her dynamic with Cloud that as far as romance goes, it’s wrapped in illusion, “You can’t fall in love with me, even if you think you have, it’s not real.”

The dream date, another alternate reality, has Aerith almost seek to act out a play once again, “Just play along, ok?”. It’s not worth going into once again the multiple times the NPCs in this date, and by extension the writers, scream at the audience about how even when pretending or playing along, Aerith and Cloud don’t match as a couple. The church scene is where it’s made explicit that this buildup has been a red herring.

And her Gold Saucer date, canon or not, low affinity or high affinity or not, is Aerith seeking and failing to connect with the real Cloud. She reaches out first, and when Cloud tenderly questions her, she says “Just until the ride’s over.” Aerith wants in that moment something Cloud can’t give, and even in high affinity, he can only comfort her. The nature of romance is rich and varied, and Aerith and Cloud’s, beyond its role as a red herring in the wider narrative, is also one wrapped in tragedy. This is expressed in their date.

And it’s bookended in one of their goodbyes in the ending, the one that calls to mind Advent Children, where they stand back to back, and hold hands once more before Aerith fades away. Here it’s Aerith comforting Cloud.

So there is a lot to suggest the game is telling us that Aerith is Rosa, her Gold Saucer date is the one to be seen in order to understand their relationship, and make better sense the nature of the dream date scenes.

But canon or not they simply don’t change the characters, context, or story. Continuity and cohesion are important yes, but so is understanding what’s being shown in the first place. And understanding the narrative intent behind these scenes and why the developers and writers would want us to see them in the first place.

So any confirmation of canon for the role of Rosa or the Gold Saucer date isn’t, and wouldn’t, suddenly be a confirmation about anything more than the information being conveyed within them is important to see and understand.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I have to say that the GS dates are super nice to watch and al, I love the CT kiss, but to me, it did not happen. Because none of the GS dates happened. And that's why they can kiss in that "what if" situation that is meant to show us their bond, because it's still too early for a CT kiss.

Like, after Remake, I felt exactly like Hamaguchi "but if there is a CT hug in Remake, then there has to be a kiss in Rebirth, to show the progression" (that is also how I knew CA would never get a kiss). But I didn't understand how they'd make tht because to me, the best place for their first kiss was (and still is) the LS sequence. The one where Cloud reveals himself, but also his true feelings for Tifa: the place where it cannot be denied anymore as "old feelings that don't matter anymore" or people focusing on the Nibelheim reveal and missing the entire part where Cloud is just Tifa's biggest simp. So to me, it makes sense that none of the dates actually happened, because the timing for the kiss is still too early. So yeah we're going to get at least 2 non-optional kisses for CT in the next game: the LSS and the HW. I think that's a given. Because those two scenes are the most romantic of the OG.

And I will add this: Nojima knew what he was doing when he requested Cloud and Tifa to hug in Remake. Toriyama didn't dare because he too thought it was too early (to keep some space for the progression), but it was Nojima who went and had them reshoot. And he knew perfectly what that would entail for Rebirth at that moment.
 
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