Jenova Cells Can't be "Erased"

While I’m back here, I thought I’d argue against another fan theory that chafes on my ass. Namely, the idea that “Cloud doesn’t have Jenova cells anymore.” This does not make sense from any angle you examine it from. To prove that:

/_1=Let’s consider the point of SOLDIER. They were infused with Jenova cells to make them a vastly superior fighting force. Given that, it makes absolutely no sense that Cloud’s performance isn’t hindered even slightly by lacking Jenova cells. Moreover, he’s basically fighting Jenova Jr. as a human when all of the other human characters—the Turks & the other party members—didn’t even give the Remnants difficulty, despite how strong they were. This alone is a plot-breaking retcon, if true.

/_2=Another massive plot hole this would create. If Aerith’s Great Gospel—an ability you can get & use on Cloud long before Sephiroth kills her—is able to completely destroy even the slightest trace of Jenova cells, well, that’s just the worst writing I’ve ever heard. It’s even worse when you consider that it was all Aerith’s descendents, who were established as being much more in-tune with their abilities than she was, could do just to seal Jenova away.

/_3=Even applying real-world logic to this, it makes no sense. Diseases do not work that way. Treating the symptom does not erase the underlying microbe that causes it. In fact, Vincent even refers to Geostigma as a “symptom,” complete with the biologically correct description that it’s the result of the body overcompensating when fighting off an invader. Given this, it would be an impressively awful research failure if Cloud’s Jenova cell infusion was “erased” by Great Gospel. Further complicating this, Jenova cell infusion changes the entire genetic structure. It isn't simply an agent in the bloodstream. I find it incredibly unlikely that rain, even magic rain, can just get rid of it.

/_4=Right before the battle with Sephiroth, Cloud has another “flash” of images. These had been running through his head throughout the movie every time his Geostigma acted up, heavily hinting that it was the Jenova cells that caused them. You can even see what appears to be blood cells in a microscope view in-between the images of Sephiroth. In fact, in Complete, one of the flashes even causes his pupils to become more like Sephiroth’s. And isn’t shape shifting one of Jenova’s most utilized abilities?

So, without some kind of definitive statement, this conclusion must be erroneous. There is clearly no such established fact in the movie, but if there’s a Word of God, I’m discontinuitying the Hell out of it. It's an incredibly stupid idea that would completely break the plot.

Neo Bahamut said:

While I’m back here, I thought I’d argue against another fan theory that chafes on my ass. Namely, the idea that “Cloud doesn’t have Jenova cells anymore.” This does not make sense from any angle you examine it from. To prove that:

/_1=Let’s consider the point of SOLDIER. They were infused with Jenova cells to make them a vastly superior fighting force. Given that, it makes absolutely no sense that Cloud’s performance isn’t hindered even slightly by lacking Jenova cells. Moreover, he’s basically fighting Jenova Jr. as a human when all of the other human characters—the Turks & the other party members—didn’t even give the Remnants difficulty, despite how strong they were. This alone is a plot-breaking retcon, if true.

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Cloud's strength comes mostly from his spirit energy. Even before having Jenova cells, Cloud already had been able to best Sephiroth by tapping into his spirit energy.

Therefore, loosing the Jenova cells in his body probably didn't affect his performance.

Neo Bahamut said:

/_2=Another massive plot hole this would create. If Aerith’s Great Gospel—an ability you can get & use on Cloud long before Sephiroth kills her—is able to completely destroy even the slightest trace of Jenova cells, well, that’s just the worst writing I’ve ever heard. It’s even worse when you consider that it was all Aerith’s descendents, who were established as being much more in-tune with their abilities than she was, could do just to seal Jenova away.

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Don't forget that Aerith, after her death, and by comunicating with the Planet/Lifestream, had acess to abilities that she never had before. After this boost in abilities, her Great Gospel (mixed with the Lifestream) was powerful enough to erradicate Jenova cells.

Neo Bahamut said:

/_3=Even applying real-world logic to this, it makes no sense. Diseases do not work that way. Treating the symptom does not erase the underlying microbe that causes it.

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Neo Bahamut said:

In fact, Vincent even refers to Geostigma as a “symptom,” complete with the biologically correct description that it’s the result of the body overcompensating when fighting off an invader.

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And the water in Aerith's church and her Great Gospel erradicated that invader (Jenova cells).

Neo Bahamut said:

I find it incredibly unlikely that rain, even magic rain, can just get rid of it.

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Hey, it's fantasy.

1. Cloud was able to defeat an incredibly injured Sephiroth by using himself as a lever. That is not the same as jumping buildings. Additionally, there's also the point that the other human characters were nowhere near the level of the Remnants, who themselves were nowhere near Sephiroth's level. That is because, as I said, the original purpose of the Jenova injections was to create a strengthened fighting force. Sephiroth would not be the SOLDIER he is without them. The same goes for Angeal, Genesis (even though he only has similar genes), Zack, & all of the others.

2. I didn't forget anything. If none of the other Cetra could do it AND they had much better communication with the planet than Aerith, then she still could not logically have such abilities. Besides that, the planet ITSELF could not eliminate Jenova.

Two points- There are two halves to Geostigma- Jenova and the will of Sephiroth. Cloud's geostigma vanishes even as one of these things, Sephiroth, is still active, and Cloud suffers absolutely no geostigma attacks afterwards, even when Sephiroth is at his height and right next to Cloud.

Also, you mention 'treat the symptom, leave the microbe', the same can be done, removing the microbe but leaving its effects on the body. So too can Jenova be removed while the effects it has had on a human body remain.

Additionally, it is an assumption that Jenova cells are indestructable. An assumption not born out, since the party destroys quite a large amount of it over the course of the game.

Where did I ever say Jenova cells were indestructible? I said that the Cetra could not destroy Jenova & the Planet could not destroy it.

Therefore, it seems likely that nothing on Earth can destroy it.

It seems to me that Jenova is just like any other creature. When it receives enough cellular damage, it dies. Once the soul (Sephiroth in this case) re-entered the cells, it returned to life.

But that piece of speculation isn't hugely important. I am not entirely clear on your point, but Great Gospel clearly cured Geostigma. However, no more Geostigma=/=no more Jenova cells.

Neo Bahamut said:

Where did I ever say Jenova cells were indestructible? I said that the Cetra could not destroy Jenova & the Planet could not destroy it.

Therefore, it seems likely that nothing on Earth can destroy it.

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Technology has progressed far beyond what the Cetra had. The planet might have finally figured out how to destroy it in the 2000 years.

It seems to me that Jenova is just like any other creature. When it receives enough cellular damage, it dies. Once the soul (Sephiroth in this case) re-entered the cells, it returned to life.

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...If we're going into such iffy realms as 'a soul' resurrecting Jenova cells, then we're entirely in realms of speculation.

But that piece of speculation isn't hugely important. I am not entirely clear on your point, but Great Gospel clearly cured Geostigma. However, no more Geostigma=/=no more Jenova cells.

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Yes, since they still exist in DoC and make people invalid for being used in the Omega scheme. My point is that Geostigma is more than just the damage, it's also the attacks by sephiroth's will.

You forget that SOLDIERs are also showered in Mako as part of the process to get their super strength.

Neo Bahamut said:

1. Cloud was able to defeat an incredibly injured Sephiroth by using himself as a lever. That is not the same as jumping buildings.

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You also forget that Tifa, Yuffie, Cid and Barret are all normal humans who can jump incredibly high heights.

Neo Bahamut said:

Even applying real-world logic to this, it makes no sense.

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Real World logic in Final Fantasy?! What is this madness?!

Technology has progressed far beyond what the Cetra had. The planet might have finally figured out how to destroy it in the 2000 years.

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I doubt that factored into anything for the following reasons: Technology=/=magic. The planet does not use technology. The weapons the party members used weren't very high-tech, aside from guns, which we all know don't cause all-encompassing cellular degeneration.

...If we're going into such iffy realms as 'a soul' resurrecting Jenova cells, then we're entirely in realms of speculation.

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Which is exactly why I said it was speculation & therefore not really relevent to the point. The biomechanics of Jenova is a subject for another day.

Yes, since they still exist in DoC and make people invalid for being used in the Omega scheme. My point is that Geostigma is more than just the damage, it's also the attacks by sephiroth's will.

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I've heard it argued before that "mako untained by Jenova" was a mistranslation, but since neither of us seems to believe that is the case, then I think we're in agreement. The reason Geostigma can be cured is because it is a potential result of Jenova cell infusion, rather than the infusion itself.

You forget that SOLDIERs are also showered in Mako as part of the process to get their super strength.

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I do not. However, this would not explain why Sephiroth is clearly more powerful than the rest. The reason for that is, of course, because he retains Jenova's abilities in their purest form.

Neo Bahamut said:

I do not. However, this would not explain why Sephiroth is clearly more powerful than the rest. The reason for that is, of course, because he retains Jenova's abilities in their purest form.

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Well, duh. It's a given that Seph's the strongest SOLDIER because he was injected with Jenova's Cells as a fetus, but you had originally said that Cloud's performance should've been hindered by the fact that he lacked Jenova Cells.
Dark and Divine pointed out that Cloud's strength mostly comes from his own Spirit Energy and I pointed out that the Mako plays a part in giving SOLDIERs their super strength. From what I see, Jenova Cells pretty much do nothing for Cloud's strength.

I remember I had a (very OT) debate with Mako Eyes in the LTD thread about Jenova cells still being in the Lifestream.

If Jenova cells, even without a will controlling them, were that easily mutable then the Planet would have had no problem just dissolving and destroying them when Jenova was first defeated. Instead, Jenova's body was encased in ice/stone/what-the-fuck-ever. Same with Lucrecia -- she's in a crystal, for some reason the Planet doesn't want her.

Geostigma is a manifestation of Sephiroth's will, but it's implied that Sephiroth's will can't manipulate pure, non-Jenova cells. Geostigma victims, the one's we've seen, all seem to have something in common, which is exposure to either the Lifestream around Meteorfall (Case of Denzel) or black water (Case of Shinra and Case of Yuffie), before they exhibit symptoms of the disease. The Jenova cells stayed dormant until Sephiroth was able to influence them, when their carrier felt doubt or despair, so just plain having Jenova cells isn't enough to have Geostigma. SOLDIER would have all been showing signs of Geostigma long before the original game or even Crisis Core if that was the case.

To me, Aerith's rain was simply releasing Geostigma victims from Sephiroth's will and healing the damage caused by the body fighting with them. There's nothing to indicate that it was taking or destroying the Jenova cells, just restoring equilibrium.

From the Crisis Core Ultimania:

The cells from Jenova used in the Jenova Project and SOLDIER surgical procedures. Those who have been injected with these cells undergo physiological changes such as improvement of their physical abilities and partially receiving Jenova’s abilities. However, mentally weak people are unable to withstand Jenova’s will, and it sometimes brings about mental abnormalities.

And the mako does absolutely nothing for SOLDIERs other than making their eyes glow a pretty blue, right? I never said anything about Jenova's cells not being used in the SOLDIER process, though I did say that the cells do nothing for Cloud's strength -- the mako, his own strength and conviction is just enough to lay the smackdown on Sephiroth.

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...egarding-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/
Also, scroll down to the part concerning Aerith's rain and Jenova Cells.

Edit:

Loxetta said:

To me, Aerith's rain was simply releasing Geostigma victims from Sephiroth's will and healing the damage caused by the body fighting with them. There's nothing to indicate that it was taking or destroying the Jenova cells, just restoring equilibrium.

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If Aerith could easily remove Sephiroth's will, then couldn't she have confronted him while both their spirits were in the lifestream?

There are only two ways Cloud's Geostigma could have been healed.
1) Jenova's Cells were eradicated
2) The Jenova's Cells' link to Sephiroth was cut off somehow.

So I suppose you're arguing for the second option. It potentially makes sense I guess, though I'm not sure how its accomplished.

Neo Bahamut said:

/_4=Right before the battle with Sephiroth, Cloud has another “flash” of images. These had been running through his head throughout the movie every time his Geostigma acted up, heavily hinting that it was the Jenova cells that caused them. You can even see what appears to be blood cells in a microscope view in-between the images of Sephiroth. In fact, in Complete, one of the flashes even causes his pupils to become more like Sephiroth’s. And isn’t shape shifting one of Jenova’s most utilized abilities?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

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This however adds nothing to your argument. Cloud's flashes when his Geostigma flares up are all of Sephiroth and hearing his voice. It's Sephiroth's will trying to take over, hence the cat-eyes.

The flash in the end are just flashbacks of things he hates Sephiroth for (her death) for his determination to keep fighting.

The fact that the flashback is delivered in the same way as all of the others indicate that it is the same general method.

I disagree with the idea that there are "only two [conceivable]" ways to cure Geostigma, but even if it is true, temporarily disrupting Sephiroth's control makes a Hell of a lot more sense than eliminating them entirely.

Climmhazard, frankly, I don't even know where you're coming from. Your edit breaks your case more than makes it. It's the same point as /_2. It doesn't make sense that Aerith can suddenly just destroy Jenova cells.

In any case, Cloud is not a Super Saiyan. It's never implied that he has supernatural stores of spirit energy that he can conveniently call on whenever he gets his shit together. He is, for all intents & purposes, a SOLDIER, having had the procedure done to him. As such, that thing I quoted definitely applies to him.

I find it hard to believe that Cloud lost his Jenova cells. I'll explain my own reasons and opinions.

As we all know both jenova cells and Mako are used in the Soldier treatment. It is also stated in the ultimania that Jenova cells are responsible for many of the superhuman abilities SOLDIERs, and people like them, seem to have.

From the Crisis Core Ultimania:

"The cells from Jenova used in the Jenova Project and SOLDIER surgical procedures. Those who have been injected with these cells undergo physiological changes such as improvement of their physical abilities and partially receiving Jenova’s abilities."

Now obviously the Mako serves some purpose, or they would not use it. Now this is speculation, but I always thought the Mako was used to dilute the effects J-cells would have on a mind. Of course you could argue that Mako also has negative effects on a mind. So I think its possible that while the mako negates negative effects from J-cells, the J-cells do the same to the mako, creating an effective balance.

Or it could be that Mako simply enhances the effect of J-cells inside the SOLDIER.

But using that logic makes little sense. Assuming that Cloud lost his J-cells when his Geostigma was cured, then he would have suffered a substantial loss of raw physical strength. However, it seems to me that in his fight with Sephiroth Cloud displayed just as much strength, maybe even more, than during the rest of the movie.

You could say that maybe Cloud doesn't actually derive any strength from the J-cells. But that would make no sense. Why would they do nothing for him, when they do so much for SOLDIERs? You could say that J-cells have never enhanced anyone, and its all from the mako, except the Ultimania clearly says that J-cells grant physical improvements.

Based on this, I'm gonna say that Aerith's Great Gospel did not remove or destroy the J-cells, but simply disonnected them from Sephiroth's will. This makes sense, because in such a scenario Cloud's strength woud not suffer, because the cells would still be there, and without Sephiroth's will the Geostigma will cease.

Neo Bahamut said:

Climmhazard, frankly, I don't even know where you're coming from. Your edit breaks your case more than makes it. It's the same point as /_2. It doesn't make sense that Aerith can suddenly just destroy Jenova cells.

In any case, Cloud is not a Super Saiyan. It's never implied that he has supernatural stores of spirit energy that he can conveniently call on whenever he gets his shit together. He is, for all intents & purposes, a SOLDIER, having had the procedure done to him. As such, that thing I quoted definitely applies to him.

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Like Dark and Divine had said, after Aerith died she gained new abilities (such as healing the souls of those who died of Geostigma) and had the help of other Ancients before her and the Lifestream. It's not that much of a stretch to say that Aerith could've gained the knowledge of how to purge out Jenova Cells from the memories of the planet and the people before her, or figured out a way to get rid of Jenova Cells.

And how does my edited reply to Loxetta break my case? If Aerith had the strength to diffuse Sephiroth's will and make him her spiritual bitch, then the events of Advent Children would've never happened and no one would have Geostigma. But as it so happens in the Case of Lifestream White, she couldn't.

Because if she could eliminate Jenova cells whenever she wanted, then the events of Advent Children ALSO would have never happened. Whatever excuse you come up with for this probably works about equally well for her.

But it doesn't matter, because that is in fact a MASSIVE stretch. It's saying that Aerith pulled an ability thousands of generations & an entire living planet-sized energy mass could not grasp right out of thin air. It just doesn't make sense, & I honestly don't see why people would argue it. It's so Mary Sue.

Personally, I think that the Great Gospel is just a physical cure.

Aerith didn't have shit. She was using the combined power and knowledge of the planet and thousands of dead cetra.

It's not her power at all. She's simply the catalyst for it all.

If Aerith/ The planet using Aerith as the tool can shut off the Jenova cell's connections to Sephy, then it is capable of muting the cells, thus proving them not immutable. It is far more complex a task to disable a device and leave it intact. As for Jenova and destroying it- think of Jenova like an infection. You can destroy the individual cells easily enough, but let any escape, and pandemic happens again. In this case, it is best to just seal the stuff off and only destroy it when you're sure you can do it safely, after your abilities to do so have gotten better over time.

So, in short- it's simpler to destroy than disable, it's safer to quarantine forever than to try and destroy a horrific infectious disease.

Climhazzard said:

If Aerith could easily remove Sephiroth's will, then couldn't she have confronted him while both their spirits were in the lifestream?

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Because in Case of Lifestream, Sephy hadn't just been given a massive 'oh shit' moment by Cloud a la Omnislash, the way he had at the end of AC/C just before the rainfall. Cloud was healed beforehand, yes, but that is easily explained by saying healing one person is easy, but not practical on a large scale, while the disease is still spreading and gaining momentum by potentially huge numbers daily.

Lord Noctis said:

Now obviously the Mako serves some purpose, or they would not use it. Now this is speculation, but I always thought the Mako was used to dilute the effects J-cells would have on a mind. Of course you could argue that Mako also has negative effects on a mind. So I think its possible that while the mako negates negative effects from J-cells, the J-cells do the same to the mako, creating an effective balance.

Or it could be that Mako simply enhances the effect of J-cells inside the SOLDIER.

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Mako Infusion might also serve as a sort of 'activating agent' to stimulate the Jenova cells to change and bind with the body. (note: speculative) Geostigma victims don't show the abilities of SOLDIERs even though they have Jenova cells, but they also aren't mako infused. To contrast, Tifa, who lacks Jenova cells, doesn't show SOLDIER ablities after her stint in the Lifestream with Cloud on Disc 2, even though she was in mako/the Lifestream.

Ryushikaze said:

If Aerith/ The planet using Aerith as the tool can shut off the Jenova cell's connections to Sephy, then it is capable of muting the cells, thus proving them not immutable. It is far more complex a task to disable a device and leave it intact.

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...What? That's like saying it's more efficient to take a sledgehammer to a telephone instead of just snipping/unplugging the line. Especially when the service is already out due to someone going hack-happy on the megalomaniacal switchboard operator.

Neo Bahamut said:

I disagree with the idea that there are "only two [conceivable]" ways to cure Geostigma ...

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Certainly only two obvious ways, and Force identified them both. No others are jumping out at me.

Neo Bahamut said:

In any case, Cloud is not a Super Saiyan. It's never implied that he has supernatural stores of spirit energy that he can conveniently call on whenever he gets his shit together.

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Cloud is totally 5-year-old Gohan, actually:

-Original game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBe6T49ZsPg
Cloud easily wields Zack's sword and uses it to run Sephiroth through. He then throws Sephiroth to his death even while severely wounded.

Not just the act of lifting Sephiroth is an amazing feat here, but the fact that he throws him through a good dozen feet of open space at an upward angle into a wall says a lot about his strength.

-Crisis Core: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZiz86LdeiE#t=1m4s
As in the original game, Cloud easily wields Zack's Buster Sword without enhancements, and throws Sephiroth to his death despite how unlikely that should have been. The metal wall that Sephiroth is slammed into when Cloud throws him is smashed under the force that Sephiroth had been thrown with, damaging the electrical wiring behind it and causing Sephiroth's clothes to burst into flames.

As well, here, prior to being skewered, Cloud also performs a fantastic leap into the air when trying to strike Sephiroth at one point.

He seriously must have put a good 20 feet between himself and the ground when he did that, and that was while leaping off of stairs that he was running up rather than descending.

-Before Crisis: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5232376
If you have a Nico Nico Douga account, log in and watch the vid starting at 21:40. Even at 14, Cloud wielded a broadsword with ease, swiftly killing two ordinary human opponents and then helping the player's Turk fight and kill two Ravens -- enhanced superhumans.

The kind of sword he was using, by the way, was used exclusively by the Ravens -- so he was performing a superhuman feat even then, which the Turk commented on. As notably, Cloud couldn't remember what had happened afterward.

Here's a link to a script of that episode of BC, if you're interested:
http://xcomprandomness.co.uk/ff7novels/beforecrisis/guide/scripts/ep05.htm

-Last Order: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdGYaFDPlks#t=14m46s
Pretty much the same deal as Crisis Core and the original game. Some of the specifics are altered, but you still have Cloud using the Buster Sword like it's his own, and he still throws Sephiroth a long way into a wall that crumples under the force of the impact.



Cloud was always a special snowflake. Hell, that's probably the reason why, as a child, he came through the fall that put Tifa in a coma with only skinned knees himself.

They've seriously beaten us over the head since day one with the fact that Cloud is naturally superhuman. He always had the strength of a SOLDIER.

So, yeah, even without JENOVA -- and, hell, probably without mako too -- Cloud is going to be an impressive mofo as an adult who both remembers what he's actually capable of and also has a powerful motivation behind him in battle. And it's only to be expected that he'll be especially impressive since he does have mako on top of his natural ability.

He doesn't need JENOVA's cells for his strength. He's Cloud.

Loxetta said:

To me, Aerith's rain was simply releasing Geostigma victims from Sephiroth's will and healing the damage caused by the body fighting with them. There's nothing to indicate that it was taking or destroying the Jenova cells, just restoring equilibrium.

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I disagree, actually. In the cases of all Geostigma victims shown cured, the physical material that has been expunged from their bodies to the surface is vaporized.

This includes the material on Cloud's arm, Moogle Girl's arms, Rufus' hand and Denzel's forehead.

Were Sephiroth's connection to the JENOVA cells simply being broken, there's no obvious reason why this material is actually getting destroyed. I think it's strongly implied that the cells themselves were destroyed.

One also has to wonder -- once Seph was put down -- what, then, Aerith's cure was actually doing if not removing JENOVA's cells.

Now, "How and why could she do this?" one may ask. "Does it really matter?" is my response. Aerith is Materia Jesus the Deus ex Machina.

Also, this:

Climhazzard said:

If Aerith could easily remove Sephiroth's will, then couldn't she have confronted him while both their spirits were in the lifestream?

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There's questions to be asked in either case.

Of course there's going to be a mystery as to how Aerith did what she did when it apparently was beyond the planet's ability before. But, again, it really doesn't matter.

What matters is that it happened.

Lord Noctis said:

Now obviously the Mako serves some purpose, or they would not use it. Now this is speculation, but I always thought the Mako was used to dilute the effects J-cells would have on a mind. Of course you could argue that Mako also has negative effects on a mind. So I think its possible that while the mako negates negative effects from J-cells, the J-cells do the same to the mako, creating an effective balance.

Click to expand...

The main problem with this idea is that the Sephiroth Copies, of which Cloud was one, received a procedure identical to that used on SOLDIERs. The civilians used in this experiment were used specifically because they lacked the ego that those chosen for SOLDIER needed to have.

Consequently, of course, their minds were all manner of fucked up. Cloud suffered from severe mako poisoning and JENOVA's cells used his brain as a playground.

I really don't think that the two influnces cancel one another out. Otherwise, why the need for those with strong egos to begin with?

Lord Noctis said:

Or it could be that Mako simply enhances the effect of J-cells inside the SOLDIER.

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I definitely think there's some synergy at work.

That said, though:

Loxetta said:

Geostigma victims don't show the abilities of SOLDIERs even though they have Jenova cells, but they also aren't mako infused.

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They do demonstrate enhancement, though. While under Kadaj's control, the kids at the Ancients' city fall out of trees and land like it's nothing. They also easily hop out of the way of Cloud's bike when it comes careening toward them.

Loxetta said:

To contrast, Tifa, who lacks Jenova cells, doesn't show SOLDIER ablities after her stint in the Lifestream with Cloud on Disc 2, even though she was in mako/the Lifestream.

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Actually, I regularly use her dip in the Lifestream and journey to the center of the planet later as explanation for her superhuman ability -- and that of the entire team, sans Vincent, since he doesn't require such an explanation -- shown in Advent Children.

I actually never really considering Jenova cells as actually enhancing you physically, although I guess that is the case. I always figured what they mostly did was make you freaking hard to kill. And that Mako infusion was what helped with your actual strength.

I have no backing for that though, just what I always kinda thought.

Loxetta said:

Mako Infusion might also serve as a sort of 'activating agent' to stimulate the Jenova cells to change and bind with the body. (note: speculative) Geostigma victims don't show the abilities of SOLDIERs even though they have Jenova cells, but they also aren't mako infused. To contrast, Tifa, who lacks Jenova cells, doesn't show SOLDIER ablities after her stint in the Lifestream with Cloud on Disc 2, even though she was in mako/the Lifestream.



.

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Thats possible. Still wouldn't make sense if Cloud lost said cells though. If the mako binds the J-cells to Cloud's body, then having themr emoved would result in serious harm.



"Cloud was always a special snowflake. Hell, that's probably the reason why, as a child, he came through the fall that put Tifa in a coma with only skinned knees himself.

They've seriously beaten us over the head since day one with the fact that Cloud is naturally superhuman. He always had the strength of a SOLDIER.

So, yeah, even without JENOVA -- and, hell, probably without mako too -- Cloud is going to be an impressive mofo as an adult who both remembers what he's actually capable of and also has a powerful motivation behind him in battle. And it's only to be expected that he'll be especially impressive since he does have mako on top of his natural ability.

He doesn't need JENOVA's cells for his strength. He's Cloud. "

That would actually make sense when we think about how powerful Cloud is compared to SOLDIERs. Without the J-cells he might rival an average SOLDIER. With the J-cells he becomes the behemoth of a warrior we all know. Take the J-cells away and he would still have some exceptional abilities, just not nearly as great as he has with J-cells.

That of course is speculatio however.

Loxetta said:

...What? That's like saying it's more efficient to take a sledgehammer to a telephone instead of just snipping/unplugging the line. Especially when the service is already out due to someone going hack-happy on the megalomaniacal switchboard operator.

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That's not a valid analogy. This is like smashing a wireless, battery operated loudspeaker, when it's getting a signal from something with far stronger gain than anything you can pump out. There is no cord to cut or unplug. Smashing the damn thing and stopping its ability to recieve signal- and thus pump out its noise- is far simpler and easier than opening it up and taking out the receiver.

Lord Noctis said:

That would actually make sense when we think about how powerful Cloud is compared to SOLDIERs. Without the J-cells he might rival an average SOLDIER. With the J-cells he becomes the behemoth of a warrior we all know. Take the J-cells away and he would still have some exceptional abilities, just not nearly as great as he has with J-cells.

That of course is speculatio however.

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I still feel like the mako combined with his natural ability is enough to provide him the extra enhancement needed to put him way above the others. Like Weiss, for example.

That dude had no JENOVA cells whatsoever, but look at him -- he was stronger than any other SOLDIER in Deepground. Mako alone enhanced him to incredible heights.

I'm sure JENOVA cells are important to a SOLDIER's enhancement, but like Force, I've always gotten the impression that the mako was what provided the physical strength. It's always been the element emphasized, what with the mako eyes and all.

I really don't see Cloud's loss of JENOVA cells as a problem when they were allowing Sephiroth to inhibit his performance at the time.