Jenova Cells Can't be "Erased"

[ForceStealer]

Manually, as far as I know.

[ quote=Lord Noctis] ---- [ /quote]

[ quote=Makofag] ---- [ /quote]

sans spaces of course

 

[Lord Noctis]

Manually, as far as I know.

[ quote=Lord Noctis] ---- [ /quote]

[ quote=Makofag] ---- [ /quote]

sans spaces of course

Thanks, I'll try that instead of double-posting.

 

[Max Payne]

I suppose it could be possible that The effects of the J-cells could last even after they are destroyed? Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

Well, after people have gone cold turkey off performance enhancing drugs and similar shit, they've maintained the strength and stamina it gave them.

I suppose it could be something similar. I mean, they couldn't have cloud suddenly lose 90% of his muscle mass.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, after people have gone cold turkey off performance enhancing drugs and similar shit, they've maintained the strength and stamina it gave them.

Do they (actual inquiry, I don't mean this as a snarky challenge)? I know for example, when you stop taking creatine (which isn't a drug nor harmful like steroids), you lose some of the size, and by extension the strength that comes with it.

 

[Max Payne]

Do they (actual inquiry, I don't mean this as a snarky challenge)? I know for example, when you stop taking creatine (which isn't a drug nor harmful like steroids), you lose some of the size, and by extension the strength that comes with it.

Well, the people I knew in particular continued their workout routines with natural methods, but there really wasn't any noticeable change in their size.

Don't think they were on creatine though. These guys were almost as poor as I am(wasn't hard for them to get what they wanted from their coach though, anything for the team amirite?). They basically lived at the gym.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, the people I knew in particular continued their workout routines with natural methods, but there really wasn't any noticeable change in their size.

Don't think they were on creatine though. These guys were almost as poor as I am(wasn't hard for them to get what they wanted from their coach though, anything for the team amirite?). They basically lived at the gym.

Ah, interesting.

I suppose one could look at J-Cells differently, then. Are they simply a substance that you're 'strong with/weak without', or are they like Super Steroids, and they allow a person to permanently raise their ceiling of strength and combat potential, even if they're later removed? It could be Mako that must remain in the equation as to allow the user to keep their combat prowess, while J-Cells simply (or rather, if its true, it's far more complex than Mako) allows the user to raise their overall potential for strength as long as they possess them, even if they're later taken away.

Also unrelated question: how many citizens of Edge did Deepground take? Were any of them rescued?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ah, interesting.

I suppose one could look at J-Cells differently, then. Are they simply a substance that you're 'strong with/weak without', or are they like Super Steroids, and they allow a person to permanently raise their ceiling of strength and combat potential, even if they're later removed? It could be Mako that must remain in the equation as to allow the user to keep their combat prowess, while J-Cells simply (or rather, if its true, it's far more complex than Mako) allows the user to raise their overall potential for strength as long as they possess them, even if they're later taken away.

Also unrelated question: how many citizens of Edge did Deepground take? Were any of them rescued?

See my post here, MOG.

Shalua states that 500 people in Edge were kidnapped by Deepground. And no, no one rescued them. They were tossed into the Mako pit as well, in order to be sacrifices for Omega.

 

[Ryushikaze]

True.

BTW, how do you quote multiple people in one post? Noob question I know, but I can't qute figure it out.

Thanks, I'll try that instead of double-posting.

See the little image of the quotation marks and the plus icon? That's the multiquote button. Select that on the posts you want to quote, then select new reply when you want to start replying.

 

[ForceStealer]

Holy crap! How have I never noticed that?!

 

[Neo Bahamut]

What you mean it's time for Cloud to save the day? Oh let's get rid of those pesky things!

That's the thing. You don't need to get rid of them for Cloud to save the day.

I mean nobody ever confused video game writers with Shakespeare.

I might get some shit for this, but they're not exactly dissimilar. Shakespeare's tragedies are characterized by sex jokes, villains who fell due to their own arrogance, & insanity resulting from a turn to evil, rather than being the cause of it, among other things.

The plot of FFVII has similar defining features.

If you really believe what you're saying, then this debate is going to go nowhere, because we're perceiving two completely different sets of data.

No, I just understand that it IS a fantasy. Sometimes, biology & physics get stretched. Strictly speaking, Cloud in his natural state does things that are considered normal in that world for other humans. Especially when you consider that he's usually under duress, & therefore probably under the influence of Limit Breaks, adrenaline, or whatever you prefer.

So he has the main character advantage. That doesn't suggest he has innate supernatural powers when the games continually hammer us over the head with the point that he was just "some awkward kid who became a SOLDIER grunt."

Sabin from VI performs some inhuman actions without magical powers. The guy can jump across train cars while holding another person, as well as holding up a burning house by himself.



As for Edge, the majority of citizens seemed to not have Jenova cells. And all of the citizens were not captured. Cloud & Tifa both lived in Edge. Since Marlene & Denzel lived with them, one can assume they were safe, as well.

 

[Lord Noctis]

See the little image of the quotation marks and the plus icon? That's the multiquote button. Select that on the posts you want to quote, then select new reply when you want to start replying.

Cool, thanks. I feel a bit silly for not noticing that sooner.

Holy crap! How have I never noticed that?!

I am asking myself the same question.

 

[Makoeyes987]

As for Edge, the majority of citizens seemed to not have Jenova cells. And all of the citizens were not captured. Cloud & Tifa both lived in Edge. Since Marlene & Denzel lived with them, one can assume they were safe, as well.

Dude, Edge was the epicenter of Geostigma infection as stated by OTWTAS Case of Yuffie. Most of the populace and children had it. The fact that we see not a single citizen murdered, but instead most of them are taken away speaks to the fact that the citizens now, post AC, are clean. They have no Jenova cells.

And why is that? If Aerith's rain did not remove the cells, how the hell are they pure then?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Dude, Edge was the epicenter of Geostigma infection as stated by OTWTAS Case of Yuffie. Most of the populace and children had it.

"Dude," think for like 2 seconds here. If most of the population had it, how was it so easy for the remaining population to shun the victims? The infectees we see were hanging out in an alleyway.

The fact that we see not a single citizen murdered, but instead most of them are taken away speaks to the fact that the citizens now, post AC, are clean.

We don't see jack shit. The place is cleaned out before Vincent gets there. Probably before Shalua gets there. And whatever she said, we already know that Deepground missed some people. Again: Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene, & the kid who guides Vincent at least.

They have no Jenova cells.

You have some circumstantial evidence & you consider that enough to conclude that the nearly invincible micro-organism that is the basis for the Compilation of FFVII's entire plot can just be "cleaned" by a dead flower girl? Perfectly logical.

And why is that?

Because you're taking an assumption & running with it. I'm sure most of the WRO operatives probably didn't have Geostigma, but Rosso killed them anyway. Also, Nero's darkness was roaming around, & it absorbs mother fucking everything.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The Majority of people in Edge- Cloud and family included- evacuated before DoC started. All 500 of the remaining people either escaped or were taken, none killed. Contrast to Kalm with its purging and leaving of bodies. Everyone in Edge was pure.

And the majority of the population had the infection, but was not showing symptoms.

 

[Makoeyes987]

"Dude," think for like 2 seconds here. If most of the population had it, how was it so easy for the remaining population to shun the victims? The infectees we see were hanging out in an alleyway.

Out of 500 people, none of them were killed. So again, I ask. How would that make any sense, when Kalm, a town that was smaller, had most of its population massacred because they were Geostigma infected?

Kalm's Geostigma populace was no where near as large as Edge's. Most of Edge's population was carrying the disease, compared to every other place in the world. That's stated in the story.

We don't see jack shit. The place is cleaned out before Vincent gets there. Probably before Shalua gets there. And whatever she said, we already know that Deepground missed some people. Again: Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene, & the kid who guides Vincent at least.

They left. Out of 500 people, around 10 made it out, because they had heroes from the Jenova War leading them out of there. Again. 500 people. Sacrificed because they were pure. And no bodies.

You have some circumstantial evidence & you consider that enough to conclude that the nearly invincible micro-organism that is the basis for the Compilation of FFVII's entire plot can just be "cleaned" by a dead flower girl? Perfectly logical.

So if Edge was not pure, why are they not killed, like Kalm's population was?

Because you're taking an assumption & running with it. I'm sure most of the WRO operatives probably didn't have Geostigma, but Rosso killed them anyway. Also, Nero's darkness was roaming around, & it absorbs mother fucking everything.

They were fighting. Rosso and Nero live to fight. And you have the WRO officer stating point blank that Deepground were gathering the civilians and taking them away. Why are you ignoring reality and substituting your own...?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I haven't read Case of Shinra yet, so I may need to be convinced of some of that.

Out of 500 people, none of them were killed. So again, I ask. How would that make any sense, when Kalm, a town that was smaller, had most of its population massacred because they were Geostigma infected?

As I understand it, not many people outside of Edge had gotten the cure yet.

So if Edge was not pure, why are they not killed, like Kalm's population was?

Who says they weren't? Nero has absorbing darkness powers.

They were fighting. Rosso and Nero live to fight.

This is just an absolute cop-out. I did not ask you WHY Rosso & Nero were killing people, I pointed out that they clearly have no problem killing people they should be using.

Rosso, at least. That seems very unlike Nero.

And you have the WRO officer stating point blank that Deepground were gathering the civilians and taking them away.

Because I so said that didn't happen anywhere in the game. Yeah. I said the shit out of that. Look up at all of those places where I said it. I said it & I'm proud of it.

Only I didn't.

Ever.

Why are you ignoring reality and substituting your own...?

Your strongest pieces of evidence are that Geostigma's healing makes a vaporization visual effect & that Deepground allegedly captured most of Edge instead of outright killing them. That is not enough to conclude that you can just "get rid" of Jenova cells.

As long as we're ad homing, why do you feel the need to lock yourselves into 1 conclusion, ignore any evidence to the contrary, & then get bitchy with other people for not believing you unquestionably?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Read Case of Shinra, and Case of Yuffie. They're good and they answer a lot of what happened before AC in terms of the world and population. The majority of the infected were from Edge. They were localized around Midgar. Which makes sense, considering how exposure to mako there would be the most likely.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I will read Case of Shinra, when I damn well feel like it. And I have read Case of Yuffie, thank you very much.

All the same, do you say, "Read the book," on English papers? No, you probably use citations. Maybe quotes. Those would be very convincing.

 

[Max Payne]

Midgar/Edge was ground zero for geostigma man. They painted a pretty clear picture of this in the novellas. They don't call something an epidemic if it just affects a handful of the population.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I never said a handful. And I'm looking for something a bit more definitive than "it's pretty obvious, trust me."

 

[Cat Rage Room]

OFF TOPIC QUESTION AGAIN

How many people were overall killed by Deepground, whether through it's purification thing or kidnapped? Are we looking at some population scouring event here, or relatively a lot of people, or "relatively a lot of people on paper (like 100,000 people sounds like a lot in the real world, but it's statistically insignificant compared to the overall population) but not really" sort of deal?

 

[ForceStealer]

You do know The Lifestream collided with Meteor over Midgar, right? It's the epicenter of Geostigma because all the shit went down right there. It's why people like Ruvy were killed instantly and were left Geostigma-ridden husks. It's why out in Wutai Geostigma is referred to as "Midgar Disease." It's why the radio at the beginning of Advent Children is discussing the safety of travelling around Midgar and the reactors. People aren't saying "it's pretty obvious" to dodge your argument, they're saying it because it's pretty freaking obvious.

I will read Case of Shinra, when I damn well feel like it.

All the same, do you say, "Read the book," on English papers?

I dunno, when you're assigned the book report and argue your points without actually reading it do you tell the teacher you'll read it when you damn well feel like it?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Ted: Tough to say. First of all, we don't know the population density of the FFVII world. We know that Wutai had 1200 people taken from it, Edge apparently had 500, & I don't remember if they gave a figure for Kalm. So, most likely, the number was in the thousands or tens of thousands. However many it was, it was enough for them, dying in 1 place, to convince the Planet that it was dying. So it must have been a lot, relatively speaking.

Atem: It's burden of proof crap. It's an extraordinary claim to say that Cloud's Jenova cells are "gone." Telling me to believe you or find the information myself without actually backing it up is piss-poor argument form.

Moreover, why do you assume I don't know the events of the storyline? Yes, I know what causes Geostigma. Yes, I know it erupted right over Midgar. The difference is that I'm not taking all of the shit that IS obvious & mistaking it with shit that IS NOT. Example:

Cloud sometimes performs extreme feats.

Obvious.

Cloud has abnormal stores of spirit energy that make him stronger than SOLDIER operatives ordinarily.

Wild conclusion only tenuously connected to the obvious statement.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I dunno, when you're assigned the book report and argue your points without actually reading it do you tell the teacher you'll read it when you damn well feel like it?

A-men.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, and always read the materials before getting into a debate.

Seriously, man, don't get on people for not providing sources when you're going off entirely half cocked, man.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

A-men.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, and always read the materials before getting into a debate.

Seriously, man, don't get on people for not providing sources when you're going off entirely half cocked, man.

I'm going to attempt to be patient while I explain this:

If you have an assertion that you expect everyone to agree with, especially when you're drastically overturning existing information, then you have the burden of proof. You really should not expect me to prove that the old information still applies. Unless overturned, it does.

You should also not throw around terms like "it's obvious I'm right" or "read it." Your opponent is likely going to be ignorant to a few things. He may not have time to read an entire document just to humor you.

When I get into debates & I say something is the way it is, I dig up quotes. I did it when I got that quote from the Crisis Core ultimania for this topic. I've been doing it for the Dissidia debate. I won't "get on" you if you stop assuming your opponents are willfully ignorant & provide sources of your claims.

Okay?