Jenova Cells Can't be "Erased"

[Lord Noctis]

I still feel like the mako combined with his natural ability is enough to provide him the extra enhancement needed to put him way above the others. Like Weiss, for example.

That dude had no JENOVA cells whatsoever, but look at him -- he was stronger than any other SOLDIER in Deepground. Mako alone enhanced him to incredible heights.

I'm sure JENOVA cells are important to a SOLDIER's enhancement, but like Force, I've always gotten the impression that the mako was what provided the physical strength. It's always been the element emphasized, what with the mako eyes and all.

I really don't see Cloud's loss of JENOVA cells as a problem when they were allowing Sephiroth to inhibit his performance at the time.

I'd be willing to accept that concept, except for one thing. The ultimania states the J-cells grant physical improvements. Besides, if I recall didn't Weiss have tainted lifestream inside him, as opposed to rugular mako? I haven't played DOC for awhile so I'm not sure.

Either way, I don't doubt Cloud would be tough without J-cells. I just don't think he'd be as tough. Without J-cells I would think he would rival an average SOLDIER, while with the Cells he becomes far more powerful than most First classes, maybe even stronger than any of them.

That is speculation though. What is certain is that J-cells do grant physical enhancements.

 

[ForceStealer]

I really don't see Cloud's loss of JENOVA cells as a problem when they were allowing Sephiroth to inhibit his performance at the time.

This is an excellent point.

 

[Dark and Divine]

(...) Besides, if I recall didn't Weiss have tainted lifestream inside him, as opposed to rugular mako? I haven't played DOC for awhile so I'm not sure.

No, the only Tviest whose birth was linked to experiments with Stagnant Lifestream was Nero. The other Tviests were the result of other experiments.

 

[Lord Noctis]

This is an excellent point.

Yeah, that is a good point.

But it seems to me that the J-cells weren't what effected Cloud's preformance, so much as Geostigma itself whenever it flared up, combined with his depression.

Assuming that Aerith purges the J-cells of Sephiroth's will, we can also assume any effect Sephiroth might have had on Cloud's abilities fades, allowing Cloud to fight at his full potential.

 

[Lord Noctis]

No, the only Tviest whose birth was linked to experiments with Stagnant Lifestream was Nero. The other Tviests were the result of other experiments.

I see, what sort of experiemnt did produce Weiss then?

 

[ForceStealer]

As far as I know they never specified. But he certainly didn't have Jenova or stagnant Lifestream because he was obviously pure enough to merge with Omega.

 

[Dark and Divine]

I see, what sort of experiemnt did produce Weiss then?

Something to do with Genesis's genes and pure Lifestream, I think.

But as Force said, it was never specified.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Something to do with Genesis's genes and pure Lifestream, I think.

But as Force said, it was never specified.

I hate it wehn things aren't specified

 

[ForceStealer]

Well it appears we may not have seen the last of Weiss, so maybe it will be explained at some point.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Either way, I don't doubt Cloud would be tough without J-cells. I just don't think he'd be as tough. Without J-cells I would think he would rival an average SOLDIER, while with the Cells he becomes far more powerful than most First classes, maybe even stronger than any of them.

That is speculation though. What is certain is that J-cells do grant physical enhancements.

Agreed on that last bit, though I'd say even without the alien cells, Cloud should be above any 1st Class. I mean, if he was already performing SOLDIER-like feats before he got any enhancement, well ... we're dealing with exponents then.

But, yeah, no doubt the cells enhanced him in some fashion, and without them he'd be lacking something.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Agreed on that last bit, though I'd say even without the alien cells, Cloud should be above any 1st Class. I mean, if he was already performing SOLDIER-like feats before he got any enhancement, well ... we're dealing with exponents then.

But, yeah, no doubt the cells enhanced him in some fashion, and without them he'd be lacking something.

Well, I think we are in agreement then.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Genesis does not have Jenova cells, but he had gene mapping done on his genes to make them resemble Gillian's. This would mean that he basically has artificial Jenova cells. Which, again, hammers home the point that these abilities are the result of enhanced genetics by the Jenova cells.

Also, when Cloud falls to the ground at Nibelheim, Tifa doesn't die, either. As it's a fantasy setting, yes, the characters are going to perform superhuman feats at points. But to say the Jenova cells don't strengthen you when it's been established from Day 1 as a key plot point? I would have to see something at least as definitive for this "spirit energy" stuff.

As for Aerith, it absolutely matters how she could have such an ability. "It's a fantasy" is not an end-all justification. It would make no sense if Cloud beat Sephiroth without any effort, since it's already been established that Sephiroth is much stronger. It would make no sense if a new title came out declaring Marlene to be Vincent's mother, because she wouldn't have even been born back then. When Sephiroth came back, he didn't just do it, there was a mechanism behind it. Even a fantasy setting has a plot.

 

[ForceStealer]

But as Dacon and others said, it isn't just her ability. She's simply the catalyst for the power of millions of souls (including all the ancients).

It wasn't her ability that stopped Meteor, she was the conduit that allowed her to call on the strength of all the Lifestream to stop it.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

And as I said at least 4 times, none of the Cetra OR the Planet had such an ability. Whether Aerith is a conduit or not, she can't use an ability she has no way of accessing.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Also, when Cloud falls to the ground at Nibelheim, Tifa doesn't die, either.

A seven-day coma is a pretty big deal. Cloud even says nobody expected her to make it.

But, come on, you're really going to contest the point and argue that Cloud coming through that event relatively unscathed coupled with his later feats of absurdity sans enhancement wasn't related to the same idea?

As it's a fantasy setting, yes, the characters are going to perform superhuman feats at points. But to say the Jenova cells don't strengthen you when it's been established from Day 1 as a key plot point?

I don't think anyone's suggesting that they do nothing. I already pointed out that they provide some kind of enhancement given the children's acrobatics in AC/C.

It's only been discussed whether the loss of JENOVA cells should have suddenly rendered Cloud a weakling. Given his natural strength, plus the mako in his body, it seems unlikely.

I would have to see something at least as definitive for this "spirit energy" stuff.

When Dark and Divine mentioned that, he/she (I don't think we really know which D and D is, do we?) was referring to the same thing I am: That Cloud's always been a special snowflake.

And as I said at least 4 times, none of the Cetra OR the Planet had such an ability. Whether Aerith is a conduit or not, she can't use an ability she has no way of accessing.

Point is, some kind of JENOVA-neutralizing ability came along at some point. Whether it be outright destroying the cells -- which I would argue is the case given the vaporization of the foreign material on Cloud, Rufus and the children's bodies -- or disrupting the will therein, it's something new that couldn't be done before.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Sephiroth's will is thrown off all of the time. It's nothing that "wasn't done before." It's disrupted when he dies, it's disrupted by Cloud at the end of the game, etc.

Cloud's not really that special. He's always gotten by pretty much on luck. He stabbed Sephiroth when his back was turned, etc.

As for getting by unscathed, I've always assumed he fell on Tifa. Mostly 'cause it's funny.

 

[Edley]

I actually agree with your logic Neo, but you do have to understand that the Geostigma cure is really a case of write me outta this jam deus ex machina. J-Cells are the MacGuffin of the 7 universe. They move the plot along in ways the characters could not by themselves. Cloud needs adversity for AC? sprinkle in some j-cells throughout the lifestream! Sephiroth needs a vehicle to be ressurrected? J-Cells and a remnant'll do the trick! What you mean it's time for Cloud to save the day? Oh let's get rid of those pesky things! Oh hey we need them back for DoC now!

I mean nobody ever confused video game writers with Shakespeare.

And Cloud's always been special

Spoiler

dude.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sephiroth's will is thrown off all of the time. It's nothing that "wasn't done before." It's disrupted when he dies, it's disrupted by Cloud at the end of the game, etc.

I'm talking about a magical neutralization of Sephiroth/JENOVA by the Lifestream. That is something it obviously couldn't do before. He reformed his physical body from the pieces of himself and JENOVA in the Lifestream after Cloud killed him in Nibelheim, and he formed his shinentai out of Lifestream after being killed again at the end of the original game.

It's only during AC/C that the Lifestream, as guided by Aerith, is suddenly able to neutralize this enemy that's been lingering relatively uninhibited for a very long time.

Again, whether it be outright destruction of the cells or disruption of the will therein, it's new.

Cloud's not really that special.

Dude, what? You have to be kidding.

He's always gotten by pretty much on luck. He stabbed Sephiroth when his back was turned, etc.

Luck has nothing to do with whether he forced his body on past the time it should have expired in a normal person. Luck has nothing to do with whether he threw a grown man, who probably weighed more than him, through a dozen feet of open space at an upward angle, smashing the metal wall behind the guy with the force of the throw -- and all done right after being mortally wounded.

Luck has nothing to do with whether he should be able to leap 20 feet in the air while carrying a sword as big as he is. Hell, to begin with, luck has nothing to do with whether he should be able to easily lift and wield a sword as big as he is -- in both cases where he did so, these being weapons that were only used by enhanced superhumans.

If you really believe what you're saying, then this debate is going to go nowhere, because we're perceiving two completely different sets of data.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So quite a few people still seem to believe that Aerith's healing water couldn't have destroyed the Jenova cells that remained post AC, and that it only "removed" Sephiroth's will. I've argued how wrong this was before, but since Tres, Ryu, and others have expressed the same arguments I said before I won't repeat them.

However, I will post this observation that some seem to have forgotten in DC. Deepground's goal in DC was to collect the "pure" (those who had no Jenova cells) while massacring the "impure" (those who still had Jenova cells). This is evident in Kalm where the children who are pure are collected while the adult citizens are brutally killed.

In Edge however, the same does not take place. As stated by Shalua:

Vincent: What happened here?
Shalua: That's what I'd like to know.
Shalua: I'm here on other business, but something's not right. It's too quiet.
Shalua: I've seen no trace of Deepground, or the squads that were sent in to
fight them. Also, where are the 500 people who are supposed to still
be living here? Well, this is getting us nowhere. Like I said, I
have business to attend to. I'll see you around.

They weren't killed...they simply were gone. The fact they were kidnapped and taken away for Omega is again reinforced by speaking with the dying WRO soldier who says:

WRO Member: Ambushed... by... soldier... in red...
WRO Member: Squad... wiped out...
WRO Member: Warehouse... on the... edge of town...
WRO Member: They... were gathering... civilians...

And once we get there, we see that they are all gone. The citizens of Edge were gathered and taken away to DG to be sacrificed for Omega's revival. While the citizens of Kalm, save the kids, were massacred because of their impurity. If Edge's citizens were killed like those in Kalm's, we'd see a massive body count like we did before in Kalm.

What was the difference between the two towns? What made the Edge citizens viable, pure sacrifices? Aerith's rain. To say that Aerith's rain only purged Sephiroth's will from people is to ignore the massive evidence to the contrary, especially in DC, that states that in order to be fully pure and free of Geostigma, you have to be completely cleansed of Jenova's cellular matter.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'd never considered what Mako just suggested before, but it's so obvious now that it's been pointed out. There was obvious cherry picking at work in Kalm, while they just wholesale took everybody they could in Edge.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I'd never considered what Mako just suggested before, but it's so obvious now that it's been pointed out. There was obvious cherry picking at work in Kalm, while they just wholesale took everybody they could in Edge.

I suppose theres that.

I just think it seems kinda silly for Cloud to lose his J-cells, as that would generally mean a large reduction in his physical strength and endurance. But as we clearly see in ACC when he faces Sephiroth he has no shortage of either.

I suppose it could be possible that The effects of the J-cells could last even after they are destroyed? Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

 

[ForceStealer]

How much to Jenova cells REALLY give you though? Again, I always thought they made you freaking hard to kill and that was mostly it. Mako was responsible for the rest.

As Tres pointed out, they clearly did something for the kids, so maybe they do do something more, but I'd still argue that Mako did more for your actual physical ability.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I suppose it could be possible that The effects of the J-cells could last even after they are destroyed? Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

Well, we are dealing with physics surrounding the cellular material of a fictional, shapeshifting, psychokinetic alien.

 

[Lord Noctis]

How much to Jenova cells REALLY give you though? Again, I always thought they made you freaking hard to kill and that was mostly it. Mako was responsible for the rest.

As Tres pointed out, they clearly did something for the kids, so maybe they do do something more, but I'd still argue that Mako did more for your actual physical ability.

This could be the case. I'd still argue that losing the strength granted by J-cells would have a significant impact on Cloud's abilities.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Well, we are dealing with physics surrounding the cellular material of a fictional, shapeshifting, psychokinetic alien.

True.

BTW, how do you quote multiple people in one post? Noob question I know, but I can't qute figure it out.