Fanon Stereotypes! or How We Learned to Continue Worrying and Rant a Bunch

Minato Arisato said:

Not really, as far as Tifa's friends go, Cloud had absolutely nothing to do with it, they were the only ones tagging along and they decided to leave her to her fate. Obviously they let Tifa's dad keep on believing it was Cloud's fault, which is probably the main reason Tifa recalls Cloud picking fights.

Cloud may not have actually had that troubled a youth, it may very well have been primarily Tifa's dad and Tifa's friends that had a big problem with him rather then the entire village, thus skewing Tifa's perception of things and later on influencing Jenova!Cloud's personality, who derived it's memories from Tifa.

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Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: I don't think young kids would give a shit about whether or not Cloud was responsible for Tifa's accident. The most that would happen is, IMO, "Hey, son, don't talk to Cloud. He was responsible for Tifa's accident." And the kids would shun him, but Cloud was shunning them already, so it wouldn't even matter. Kids don't really care about that stuff, because they generally lack empathy before a certain age ...?

The ones who would actually care about whether or not Cloud was responsible for Tifa's accident are also the ones who actually know that Cloud wasn't responsible for it, since they followed Tifa up the path and knew that Tifa was the one who wanted to go in the first place. Obviously they did not tell Tifa's dad that Cloud wasn't to blame (and note, neither did Tifa).

In any case, you just have two groups of kids, one group that probably doesn't care, and another group that knows it's not Cloud's fault.

I don't think Tifa's friends had issues with Cloud, personally. It's not like they were like, "Cloud's comin'! Let's lock him out/lose him!" They let him tag along. They let him come in, even when Tifa was distraught. If anything, Cloud was the one who had problems with Tifa's friends, thinking that they were stupid. I can't help but think that Cloud wasn't so much ostracized as ... he ostracized himself.

Whether or not Cloud actually got memories from Tifa or just constructed an elaborate fantasy from his own experiences and Zack's stories is still up for debate, I think.

@ Clement: I like to think they were slightly toned down versions of what happened between Squall and Seifer at Garden. Obviously not enough to seriously harm each other, but enough that people would remember them for it.

(The Squall and Seifer relationship is another relationship that is totally misinterpreted by fans. I think people tend to assume that Seifer bullied Squall, but you don't really get much indication of that in the game. Maybe it started off that way, but it's certainly not what you see during or immediately prior to the game.)

dief said:

Whether or not Cloud actually got memories from Tifa or just constructed an elaborate fantasy from his own experiences and Zack's stories is still up for debate, I think.

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Nah, that bit has actually been explained. He got actual memories from Tifa, but they're based on how she saw him as a kid -- aloof, aggressive and uncooperative.

His false personality on Disc 1 was constructed from those memories, his own ideal version of himself, Zack's stories and traits, the real Cloud, and, later on, just a little bit of Sephiroth's influence.

Could you source me on that?

I don't see how "aloof, aggressive and uncooperative" can't be explained exclusively by "his own ideal version of himself, Zack's stories and traits, the real Cloud, and, later on, just a little bit of Sephiroth's influence." You can even extend Sephiroth's influence back, because Sephiroth was ... well, the ideal SOLDIER to Cloud, so he probably integrated some of Sephiroth's traits as well, or at least the traits of what he perceived Sephiroth to be back before he went nuts.

I like to think some of Cloud's childhood fights were actually him kicking seven shades of crap out of Tifa's "friends" for ditching her on the way up the mountain

dief said:

Could you source me on that?

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Comes from a few places.

First, hito's translation of the following passage from pg. 68 of VII's Ultimania Omega:

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Mysterious Voices
As he is about to plant the bomb, a mysterious voice calls out to Cloud. Later on there are also several scenes where strange voices such as this echo in Cloud's mind, or Cloud converses with the voices. These are caused by multiple personalities in conflict: the original Cloud himself, the 'present Cloud' that was formed when his personality mixed with Zack's following Hojo's experiments, and Cloud as a Sephiroth Copy.
----

This bit from pg. 170:

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The moment he sees Tifa, a new personality is formed.
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And finally, this from pg. 211 (this one's my translation):

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Just before the beginning of the story, when Cloud's mind was broken, he met Tifa and apparently "returned" to a normal state immediately; this was because the mimic ability of the Jenova cells within Cloud read the image of him within Tifa's memories and his own ideal image of himself, forming a new personality.
----

Here's also the Japanese text for that last one:

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物語開始直前の時点で、精神が破綻していたクラウドが、ティファと会ってすぐに一見ふつうの状態へと"もどった"のも、クラウドのなかのジェノバ細胞が擬態能力よって、ティファの記憶内のクラウド像と、クラウドの理想とする自身の姿を読み取り、新たな人格を形成したため。
----

Ahh, what bull. (Not your translation. Thanks for the sources!)

Mostly speaking re: the last quote ... I don't see the point of resorting to some artificial imprinting of Tifa's memories onto Cloud when you can explain everything Cloud in the game without it (including the mysterious voices and, hell, even the other "a new personality is formed"). Fuckery. Once again, Squeenix dresses things up without needing to.

I agree it isn't necessary. I think the point (if there was one) was just to emphasize the importance to him of what Tifa thinks.

It turns out that Seph's lies at the Northern Crater had some half-truths:

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Seph
Cloud... Don't blame Tifa.
The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova.
Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you.
Out of Tifa's memory......
A boy named Cloud might've just been a part of them.
----

This might be one of those moments where I just cheerfully ignore it, since it's out of game and technically not canon. (Just ... as close to canon as you can get without it being canon.)

I do not know if this was ever actually subject to debate or if it was just so obvious that it was never discussed, but it does further support the idea that Zack is not actually a spirit/ghost (like Aerith) and is only internal to Cloud in ACC.

I don't quite see how it negatively impacts anything. I mean I never thought about it in the sense Tres is saying - that part of Cloud's dickishness in the early goings is because that's part of how Tifa remembered him, but whether it's from there or just pantomiming Sephiroth, what's the problem?

Yeah, it doesn't affect anything for me either. Though I do find it deliciously ironic that Cloud's subconscious believed that being a dick would impress Tifa. =P

The "problem" to me isn't Cloud's behavior or what-not. I just think the implication that Jenova cells can "read" memories basically pushes for a very literal reading of Cloud's character arc as the most canonically "accurate" one.

To be fair, though, it was already established by Ifalna's story that Jenova could do this when she spoke of how Jenova assumed the forms of the Ancients' dead loved ones in order to get close enough to them to infect them.

Maybe Jenova went to a cemetery and looked at pictures of the dead ...? :|

Goddammit.

To explain my distaste ... I like the idea that when Cloud was catatonic, he was a sponge. He absorbed words and experiences. He absorbed a lot of Zack because of Zack's presence and Zack's stories. As a writer, storytelling's a huge thing for me, and I like that it seemed to be such a huge thing for FF7 too, in that Zack's words played a large part in constructing Cloud's persona.

If Jenova cells can "read" memories, then there's a huge possibility that the cells also read Zack's memories (with some holes, of course), and that was the basis for Cloud's persona, not the stories. That is clearly the most logical explanation, if you accept that Jenova cells read memories. Cloud's own explanation for how he made his persona from Zack's stories can be thrown away, 'cause how would Cloud know anyways? How would he tell the difference between him having made things up from stories and Jenova putting Zack's memories through a faulty copy machine anyways?

Okay, so now I'm bummed that storytelling is just no longer a big thing. The cells being able to read things basically reduces you down to that one explanation, because Occam's Razor.

I guess the one thing I can take away is that ACC looks a lot more coherent now, at least. It's not just about Cloud getting over himself, it's about him letting go of the bit of him that is ... well, coherent Zack!persona (which I think is now the most valid reading if you accept that Jenova copied Zack's memories). Throughout all the Compilation, Cloud is gradually shedding those parts of himself: in FF7 he ditches the bits that are Jenova, and in ACC he lets Zack go, finally, so that all that is remaining is himself, and he finally has room to grow.

I see the reason for your distaste now and can appreciate the sentiment. I, too, value the idea that Cloud is just soaking up stuff like a sponge. I don't think the two ideas are mutually exclusive, though.

It's still Cloud's subconscious doing the work, taking advantage of the presence of these Jenova cells in order to construct something that will let this useless lump of a body function and not let the subconscious mind wait around helplessly for death if something happens to Zack and another kind caretaker doesn't come along.

In truth, the ability of the cells completes the image for us of how Cloud could so vividly construct false memories and so accurately copy Zack's mannerisms.

And if it helps, nothing has ever confirmed that the cells read Zack's memories too.

The Jenova-copy-machine is the straw breaking the camel's back for me. You have convinced me. Yeah, nothing confirms that Cloud got Zack's memories that way, and it's not mutually exclusive, but ... it devalues Zack's storytelling by the very virtue of its existence? I didn't accept it at first, because it sounded like a ludicrous MacGuffin, but since it's actually supported in the game and is the simplest explanation for everything, then ...

I'm just glad I do not actually write Cloud. It would probably drive me batty that I got it wrong. I was ridiculously invested in the idea of Cloud as a sponge.

It's worth mentioning that nearly all of Zack's limit breaks in CC are copied from other people's techniques. And that the things he remembers about those people are part of the mechanic. So I think there's enough wiggle room for it not just Cloud to be copying things off of other people with Jenova cells; it's eveyone who has Jenova cells, it's just that not all of them are cationic.

Just going to throw it out there that just from the OG I thought the J-cells in Cloud were how he had gotten all his memories on the first disk. You can't really explain how he remembers stuff from the time before he met Zack otherwise.

dief said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: I don't think young kids would give a shit about whether or not Cloud was responsible for Tifa's accident. The most that would happen is, IMO, "Hey, son, don't talk to Cloud. He was responsible for Tifa's accident." And the kids would shun him, but Cloud was shunning them already, so it wouldn't even matter. Kids don't really care about that stuff, because they generally lack empathy before a certain age ...?

The ones who would actually care about whether or not Cloud was responsible for Tifa's accident are also the ones who actually know that Cloud wasn't responsible for it, since they followed Tifa up the path and knew that Tifa was the one who wanted to go in the first place. Obviously they did not tell Tifa's dad that Cloud wasn't to blame (and note, neither did Tifa).

In any case, you just have two groups of kids, one group that probably doesn't care, and another group that knows it's not Cloud's fault.

I don't think Tifa's friends had issues with Cloud, personally. It's not like they were like, "Cloud's comin'! Let's lock him out/lose him!"

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Tifa didn't remember that whole incident. And no, they didn't care about whether or not Clouud was responsible but they do care about Tifa's dad not thinking they were responsible and may feel threatened given that Cloud actually knows the truth. And then there's the fact Tifa was over the following years, starting to get way more into Cloud thanks to his new bad boy image. They'd care about that. All these kids had crushes on Tifa.

They let him tag along. They let him come in, even when Tifa was distraught.

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I don't remember that. They just pointed him out when he was outside the window and passed him on their way down the mountain.

dief said:

Maybe Jenova went to a cemetery and looked at pictures of the dead ...? :|

Goddammit.

To explain my distaste ... I like the idea that when Cloud was catatonic, he was a sponge. He absorbed words and experiences. He absorbed a lot of Zack because of Zack's presence and Zack's stories. As a writer, storytelling's a huge thing for me, and I like that it seemed to be such a huge thing for FF7 too, in that Zack's words played a large part in constructing Cloud's persona.

If Jenova cells can "read" memories, then there's a huge possibility that the cells also read Zack's memories (with some holes, of course), and that was the basis for Cloud's persona, not the stories. That is clearly the most logical explanation, if you accept that Jenova cells read memories. Cloud's own explanation for how he made his persona from Zack's stories can be thrown away, 'cause how would Cloud know anyways? How would he tell the difference between him having made things up from stories and Jenova putting Zack's memories through a faulty copy machine anyways?

Okay, so now I'm bummed that storytelling is just no longer a big thing. The cells being able to read things basically reduces you down to that one explanation, because Occam's Razor.

I guess the one thing I can take away is that ACC looks a lot more coherent now, at least. It's not just about Cloud getting over himself, it's about him letting go of the bit of him that is ... well, coherent Zack!persona (which I think is now the most valid reading if you accept that Jenova copied Zack's memories). Throughout all the Compilation, Cloud is gradually shedding those parts of himself: in FF7 he ditches the bits that are Jenova, and in ACC he lets Zack go, finally, so that all that is remaining is himself, and he finally has room to grow.

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Zack told a story to Cloud while they were on the road, but Cloud didn't fiercely need to be a SOLDIER First Class right the heck now until Tifa was right in front of them. I feel if Cloud was already absorbing Zack's memories before then Cloud's predicament in FFVII was too little because of his own weaknesses annd too much just because Jenova.

Obsidian Fire said:

Just going to throw it out there that just from the OG I thought the J-cells in Cloud were how he had gotten all his memories on the first disk. You can't really explain how he remembers stuff from the time before he met Zack otherwise.

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We don't know if those were Zack's memories or if they were just totally made up, because we're not showed any of 'em. I personally go with the assumption that they were made up, because Cloud says he never set foot in the ShinRa HQ. Which is absolutely ridiculous given what you see in CC, where ShinRa HQ is the SOLDIER base of operation in Midgar.

@ Minato: It's just interpretation about little kid behavior at this point. You have your interpretation, I have mine. However, Cloud did come up into Tifa's room; can't remember if it was shown, but there's a line there.

Tifa: "Was that the first day you came into my room? ... that's right."

Re: the last bit -- Cloud sees Jenova's influence and his own weakness as one and the same thing.

I was about to say what Minato just said. While Cloud was on the road with Zack, he was just a Mako poisoned semi-vegetable. He wasn't searching for an identity for himself. Neither did Jenova's cells have any particular goal at that point, as Sephiroth hadn't started the whole Reunion process yet. He could hear Zack's stories, but I don't think Jenova was using Zack's memories to construct a persona that whole time or anything.

I know not everyone's crazy about CC, but including it, Cloud has a moment of lucidity at Zack's passing and he doesn't seem to act too different. I've said before I always liked the dramatic irony that Zack calling him his "living legacy" actually causes problems for Cloud once he does try to piece together an identity.

Like Minato says, Cloud didn't really NEED an identity until he saw Tifa, then everything fell into place and he needed to be a person. That's why I think it's possible that maybe Jenova's cells - spurred by Cloud's unconscious desires - then reached out into Tifa's memories where they may not have with Zack.

After all, it's not like Cloud shows a penchant for knowing people's memories the rest of the game.

Well, why not just say that Jenova made an imperfect copy of the most pertinent parts of Zack's memory and passively stored them until he needed them? Why would you resort to two different explanations when it's clear that both situations can be more easily explained by the one, i.e. Jenova's mimic ability? How the hell would Cloud even know how the Jenova cells work? How would he know that he got his "memories" from stories when he could've just got them from the cells? Cloud is the least trustworthy narrator in FF7, so if there's anything that should be put under scrutiny, it's his own words.

The mimic ability explains how Cloud could even imagine the scenes between Zack and Sephiroth with such accuracy and detail (minus, of course, Genesis, but he was a retcon, and Zack probably would not have been totally "in it" since he gets shot down by a fireball). Unless Zack has an extraordinary memory and is also incredible at description, neither of which is supported much by CC canon (and which I had to assume under my prior theory, but I'd considered it less ludicrous than "Jenova can copy people's memories!"), it's hard to believe that Cloud got that all from stories, much less Zack's stories, which were probably more like, "Wham, bam, bunker down, mission complete," than "The thing inside the tube had red legs but was blue otherwise and had horns growing all outta its head ..."

Hell, it could've been reading Zack's memories but just reading the bits that Zack told him about, which would explain the curious lapses in detail, e.g. Cloud saying he's never been in the ShinRa HQ. Well, if Zack never mentioned it -- why would he? It's just home base -- then Jenova would never "read" those, and all the memories Cloud would have would be mission stories, including the Nibelheim mission. So in this case, the cells function only to augment the stories that Zack told Cloud.

Cloud would basically be a Jenova-enhanged sponge during the period, and it's only when Tifa shows up that everything coalesces into a persona for him, with more prompting from Jenova.

dief said:

Unless Zack has an extraordinary memory and is also incredible at description, neither of which is supported much by CC canon (and which I had to assume under my prior theory, but I'd considered it less ludicrous than "Jenova can copy people's memories!")

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So...wait. Zack telling Cloud stories that Jenova's cells supplemented with her mimicry - an ability plainly stated by Ifalna in the game - is more ludicrous than Zack telling Cloud his stories in excruciating detail?

I dunno, I really think you're overstating the impact this has on your perception of events. How much of Cloud's false memory did he pull completely out of thin air? He was THERE for almost every part of the Nibelheim incident, he just changed his perspective. Indeed, he even remembered the things HE said (being motion sick in the truck, for instance). The only things his mind had to either completely fabricate or copy is Zack's discussions with Sephiroth in the basement of the manor and inside the reactor. And Cloud had seen the inside of the reactor for himself so it's not like he had to make that up, and he spent four years in a test tube in the library.
I don't get how this hurts the storytelling, it just seems like it was very slightly different from what you imagined.

dief said:

Hell, it could've been reading Zack's memories but just reading the bits that Zack told him about, which would explain the curious lapses in detail, e.g. Cloud saying he's never been in the ShinRa HQ. Well, if Zack never mentioned it -- why would he? It's just home base -- then Jenova would never "read" those, and all the memories Cloud would have would be mission stories, including the Nibelheim mission. So in this case, the cells function only to augment the stories that Zack told Cloud.

Cloud would basically be a Jenova-enhanged sponge during the period, and it's only when Tifa shows up that everything coalesces into a persona for him, with more prompting from Jenova.

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I'm pretty sure this is EXACTLY the case.

Yeah, we're in agreement then.

I thought Jenova's memory-reading-schtick was more ludicrous, because I'd missed that Ifalna stated it in the game to begin with, and I had thought it was confined only to some out-of-canon commentary (which I can choose to ignore). I know it's cherry-picking, because FF is filled with ludicrous things like monsters from the moon and Sephiroth, but I liked the idea that Cloud was able to wholly construct worlds and memories out of nothing more than stories. The existence of Jenova's Mimic ability means I have to devalue the power of Zack's storytelling in favor of explaining it through a mix of storytelling and memory-reading.

In short, I am just peeved about being reduced to this one theory that I initially dismissed. But I am thankful for the discussion.

Was Zack in the reactor when Tifa found her father's body and tried to use the Masamune against Sephiroth in the OG flashbacks? Because since the CC ones seem to indicate Tifa was already knocked down by the time he got there, I got the impression Cloud would've had to get that memory from Tifa.

My two cents for the Cloud discussion I seem to be late for is that he was largely ignored and that's why he came up with the whole I'm better than them bit so it wouldn't bother him as much. After Tifa got hurt, I don't think it matters who started how many of the fights in terms of people viewing him unfavorably. My childhood experience tells me if you're viewed less favorably than the other people involved, you end up the scapegoat and then people have an even worse opinion of you.

Someone might’ve already brought this up—I haven’t read this whole thread yet (though I’d love to—juicy juicy!).

Anyway.

So my favourite shit to read about in fanfiction is AVALANCHE as a group because the whole misfits banding together as a team/framily shit gets me straight in the damaged home feels lmao. But something that occasionally pops up and never fails to get my goat is when Marlene is presented as this figure who is far wiser than every single gat damn adult around her, and she acts more as a consultant than a child. Adults take her advice very seriously. As though she’s this divine entity who has chosen to reside in a child’s body in order to observe and guide a band of foolish humans. Why a child’s body you freaky little entity? Don’t you want more agency? Strength?

Anyway—I realise that Marlene has undergone some thangs that may have forced her to mature a little faster than other children her age (relative to Western society anyway)... but then, that seems to be the case for most folks living on this planet (WTF Cloud signing on to join a military force that kills people n shit when he’s only 14 and no one bats an eye)? Point is, look Fanon Marlene, these adults that you’re so far above have been through some shit, too. Most of them more than you I reckon.

It’s so annoying. I take care of babbys for a living now, and the brightest one that I look after, Maple, will (very rarely) say some pretty inquisitive, enlightened shit, too. But like...

I’m not about to direct my life according to the things she says? She’ll start to whine about nearly pissing herself in the next breath? Because she’s a child? She’s a child! Marlene is a child, too...

“Hey Reno, you grown-ass man, why are you making these huge and drastic lifestyle changes?”
“A six year old has advised me to.”

Am I the only one who finds this super ludicrous and kinda outrageous? Like “I’m gonna hit someone with something heavy.” outrageous? Am I being extra sensitive because I was brought up in a soft gerontocracy where you were taught to respect your elders word (though I’ve been actively rejecting that shit ever since)?

I would hereby like to attribute any failure to comprehend what I’ve just ranted about to my own fatigue, sickness, and snotty little children.

?

Yes, excuse me.

Why is it that Nanaki and Vincent are so often depicted as speaking in an absolutely archaic manner?

I'll be reading fanfiction, enjoying myself, and all of the sudden the gentry from Jane Austen's England will make appearances using an unaging goth and a wolf lion dog as conduits.

"In vain have I struggled. It will not do. My feelings will not be repressed. You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love you." -Vincent to Lucrecia at some point maybe.

"Well, I believe they appear remarkably unwell, indeed. Such self-sufficiency without a single notion of fashion—I can hardly keep my countenance! Absolutely intolerable! Capital offense!" -Nanaki shit talking humans apparently.

I've noticed that this sort of thing pops up a lot in fanfiction in general when it comes to any characters who are depicted as being wise/serious and/or educated or characters who are a little older and/or cool in the original canon. Tends to happen to characters who have a bit more wealth as well. And it's always so jarring—especially when everyone else around them is speaking normally...

It's dumb. Absolutely intolerable! Capital offense!