Fanon Stereotypes! or How We Learned to Continue Worrying and Rant a Bunch

[Roger]

Actually since we're on the topic, one of the fanon stereotypes that has always bugged me is that Zack and Cloud are best friends. It's not that I object to fic that writes them that way, it's just that I don't think there's anything in canon to support it. At best, I think it might be one of those relationships where Cloud is not the best friend of his best friend. But I don't think we see anything in particular to suggest that they are really close before the Nibelheim incident. They go on a couple of missions together and share some laughs and find a couple of things in common - but I mean, I do that with loads of people who are not my Best Friend Forever, or even what I'd call friends.

Cloud and Zack really only become close during the years that they spend in Hojo's labs, and even then they're less friends per se than two people who develop a unique bond through suffering through the same, shared experience - maybe more like Rick and Daryl from the Walking Dead than two best mates for life. Zack saves Cloud's life at the expense of his because that's the kind of person he is. And Cloud's grief is not due to the fact that he lost his "Best Friend from way back since my rookie days in Shinra", but because this amazing, awesome guy whose strength and courage kept him alive through four years of hell is dead, just when freedom seemed to be wuithin their grasp, and now he doesn't know how he'll keep going.

I guess it all depends how you define "friend". But I still maintain that Cloud and Zack were, at best, very casual friends before Nibelheim, and Zack almost certainly loomed larger in Cloud's universe than Cloud did in his. But I don't think it makes any difference to anything in the story if they barely know each other before they go Nibelheim. They're not friends who find themselves accidentally thrown together into a horrible situation, but acquaintances whose bond develops as a result of their shared suffering.

Well I gotta disagree. The DMW ending sequence to me shows a pretty clear tier of how close he is too the people in that game; Aerith>Cloud & Angeal>Tseng, Cissnei & Sephiroth. Kunsel may high up as well, but he does not purposefully go on missions with him and share laughs. I'd say Kunsel and Luxiere are the ones that have Zack higher up in their friends list then vice versa. His friendship with Cissnei is not platonic even if Aerith got there first and Angeal is more fatherly even if he's barely older then Zack in canon and Tseng is a robot.

And Zack maybe nearly as much of a people person as you are but this is still Shinra, he really can't trust any of these people as much as Cloud. Maybe before Angeal's defection and **** got real, Zack was closer to the rest of SOLDIER but I feel by the time he went to Nibelheim things had realigned themselves.

 

[Celes Chere]

I do think Cloud and Zack are best friends but I think people go overboard in fanfics and act as if they've always been friends for years and years, when really at the start their friendship is still developing but they form into best friends by the end. They've been described as very close in canon, so I consider them best friends.

I also disagree that they only become close during the years they spend in Hojo's lab. Idk if you've played Crisis Core but it shows Zack and Cloud interacting a lot more. If you get all of Cloud's DMW's it shows many of the conversations between them that you do not see normally. You see them hanging out just talking where Zack mentions he wants to show the sky to someone. You see Zack concerned over Cloud's emotions on the subject of Tifa, you see Cloud inviting Zack to dinner at his house, and likewise Zack also had invited Cloud out somewhere as well. If they weren't so close, there's no way Cloud's mind would have shattered the way that it did when Zack died. Zack wouldn't have entrusted everything he had to Cloud if they were just obligated to one another as aquaintances.

Both of them built a friendship which transcended the rank gap between a SOLDIER and a normal trooper.

He was Aerith’s first love and close friends with Cloud and Sephiroth

A few quotes from Zack's profile page! And also on the way back to Midgar he refers to Cloud as his friend and mentions how they're both going to be mercenaries. I don't think he would speak that way to just anyone - and at that point they'd been through a lot together. He speaks long term when it comes to Cloud.

 

[Clement Rage]

Oh my god, Clement, there isn't a word in your post I don't agree with.

Except that first bit about your backlist being stuff we don't like

Aw, shucks. Sorry if that came across as compliment fishing, but I thought I kinda should mention them for full disclosure.

Is there unfortunate implications in the Japanese name being the ruling family of the Chinese culture? And don't forget the influence of Bruce Lee!

They had given a personality to that random soldier that falls off of Mt. Nibel and they made it kind of sad because they made him one of Cloud's other friends.

I wonder what happened to the third guy, the truck driver.

On Zack and Cloud: I don't mind either being friends, but I don't think they actually bonded in the tanks, since the only way to communicate seems to have been through fingernail scratches (yowch). But Zack doesn't address any other trooper by name, so it was probably more than acquaintances to begin with (he seems to single him out during the 'wanna be in SOLDIER? Hang in there' scene.

First place I remember seeing Sinclair was 'one hundred tiny missions'.

On regions, I pretty much ignore them. I have trouble with coming up with my own original names, but there's no Europe or Russia in game, I have no issues with a Wutai citizen named Josephine, cultural mixing does happen. And if I come across a name thats too overtly Japanese I actually blink a little, it takes me out of the world somehow.

Reginald Norton

My God, that's a magnificently British name.

Glorifying Tax Return. *snort* That is certainly a worry when mucking about with foreign names. There's always the option of stealing names from actors/celebrities/characters in films/shows though.

How do you know they don't have an embarrassing name, though? I remember coming across an order of militant priests called 'schokolade' and had a hard time taking them seriously.

Best celebrity name ever is 'Charisma Carpenter', though. Fact.

Fanon that I question: Why do people think the Turks spend all their time in offices? Tseng and Veld seem to have them, but we never once in canon see ranking Turks in their own offices, and in BC, at the end of the working day they return to the Shinra building from outside.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Zack is somebody who has a lot of friends. He's one of those people who calls everybody a friend. Like he says in before Crisis, "I've been on a couple of missions with Essai and Sebastian. But that's all you need to be friends, isn't it?" Before Nibelheim, Cloud's just one friend in a crowd of friends. Because Zack is a real people person, he is kind and thoughtful to all the people who touch his life, however briefly. His relationship with Cloud, pre-Nibelheim, was probably not that different from his relationship with the little street kid who stole his wallet in the Sector 5 market.

Cloud is in the DMW because he is a Major Character. In 'reality', Zack's Mum and Dad would have been there.

Anyway, I'm not saying Zack and Cloud weren't friends, just not the BFFs fanfic makes them out to be. And even after the escape from Nibelheim, I think they were something different and greater and more interesting than just friends - something more like blood-brothers, comrades-in-arms. Zack dedicated almost a year of his life to dragging Cloud's comatose ass around the planet while he chased after Genesis and answers. He didn't have to do that. But once Zack makes a committment, he follows through.

" If they weren't so close, there's no way Cloud's mind would have shattered the way that it did when Zack died." I'm afraid I just don't agree. But again, like I said, it depends how you define 'friend' and 'close'. We can call the bond between them friendship. We can call it closeness.

But how close can they have been when Zack never even told Cloud about Aerith, not even so much as her name? He told his parents about her. Sephiroth knew about her. But not Cloud.

Clem, you're right about the Turks' offices, of course. It even says so in Case of Shinra: the Shinra Building is their home, and they leave it to go to work. The desks piled with forms waited to be fillied out, the chain-smoking, the endless cups of coffee, the jammed photocopier, and Reno asleep with his feet up while Elena flies a paper dart at his nose - that's all fanon. I always thought one of the reasons for the Turks' popularity was that they provided the perfect combination of most people's mundane working reality (who took my post-its? Why hasn't anyone replaced the empty water bottle in the cooler?) with the excitement of being James Bond.

 

[Roger]

On Zack and Cloud: I don't mind either being friends, but I don't think they actually bonded in the tanks, since the only way to communicate seems to have been through fingernail scratches (yowch). But Zack doesn't address any other trooper by name, so it was probably more than acquaintances to begin with (he seems to single him out during the 'wanna be in SOLDIER? Hang in there' scene.

I don't think they spent the whole time in the tanks (or at least not, closed up and filled with Mako), they did get their food served on a tray.

Zack is somebody who has a lot of friends. He's one of those people who calls everybody a friend. Like he says in before Crisis, "I've been on a couple of missions with Essai and Sebastian. But that's all you need to be friends, isn't it?" Before Nibelheim, Cloud's just one friend in a crowd of friends. Because Zack is a real people person, he is kind and thoughtful to all the people who touch his life, however briefly. His relationship with Cloud, pre-Nibelheim, was probably not that different from his relationship with the little street kid who stole his wallet in the Sector 5 market.

But he doesn't bother to ask for that boys name, or anyone else's name. Nor does he put everyone in "Friends" on his cellphone. And I really disagree that he calls anything friend. It took him a while to get comfortable around Sephiroth, he was unfriendly with Hojo from the getgo, a bit annoyed with the Turks when they first appeared, much more antagonistic with Genesis from the moment he saw him then Tseng, Angeal, Sephiroth or anyone elseyou can see he was a lot more annoyed with getting stolen but he calmed down because Aerith was there. He has prejudices and conservations with certain type of people just like everyone else. He's human.

And anyway, that kid probably doesn't invite Zack home to have dinner. So I disagree that they have the same relationship.

Cloud is in the DMW because he is a Major Character. In 'reality', Zack's Mum and Dad would have been there.

Would you say Aerith and Angeal are saved for last because they are Major Characters?

Anyway, I'm not saying Zack and Cloud weren't friends, just not the BFFs fanfic makes them out to be. And even after the escape from Nibelheim, I think they were something different and greater and more interesting than just friends - something more like blood-brothers, comrades-in-arms. Zack dedicated almost a year of his life to dragging Cloud's comatose ass around the planet while he chased after Genesis and answers. He didn't have to do that. But once Zack makes a committment, he follows through.

You forget that Zack wants to start a business with Cloud. Even if Cloud wakes up, Zack wants to continue to spend his time together with Cloud specifically.

But how close can they have been when Zack never even told Cloud about Aerith, not even so much as her name? He told his parents about her. Sephiroth knew about her. But not Cloud.

Sephiroth knew, we don't know if Zack told him anything. By his reaction, I don't think so. I don't think it's a stretch to say Kunsel and Sephiroth have a bigger intelligence gathering network then Cloud did back in those days. Hell, he may have just figured out he hada girlfriend in the city by virtue of working on the same floor in Shinra Tower as him. And Zack told Cloud as much as his parents.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But he doesn't bother to ask for that boys name, or anyone else's name. Nor does he put everyone in "Friends" on his cellphone.

You're assuming that what we see of his cellphone is his entire contacts list. You are free to assume that, of course. I'm free to assume that it isn't. And it's not so much that he didn't bother to ask for the boy's name as that the scriptwriters didn't bother to give the kid one. I should point out that it also has to do with narrative conventions: as soon as you give a character a name, he acquires a certain significance, and you expect him to become an integral part of the ongoing story.

And I really disagree that he calls anything friend. It took him a while to get comfortable around Sephiroth, he was unfriendly with Hojo from the getgo, a bit annoyed with the Turks when they first appeared, much more antagonistic with Genesis from the moment he saw him then Tseng, Angeal, Sephiroth or anyone elseyou can see he was a lot more annoyed with getting stolen but he calmed down because Aerith was there. He has prejudices and conservations with certain type of people just like everyone else. He's human.

Exactly. He's not a happy idiot. And he does have flashes of temper. But he is generally willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. If you're taking "he calls everybody a friend" literally, then I agree that I made a mistake there. He calls everybody he's had any kind of a good time with, or likes, a friend.

And anyway, that kid probably doesn't invite Zack home to have dinner. So I disagree that they have the same relationship.

You're just speculating. I could as easily say that going over to have dinner at that kid's house was one of the cute things Aerith and Zack probably did together.

Would you say Aerith and Angeal are saved for last because they are Major Characters?

They wouldn't be on the DMW if they were not Major Characters. They're saved for last because they are the two people he loved most.

You forget that Zack wants to start a business with Cloud. Even if Cloud wakes up, Zack wants to continue to spend his time together with Cloud specifically.

Are you seriously suggesting that Zack toted Cloud around for a year because he hoped to be business partners with him when he woke up, whenever that was? To my mind, that whole pep talk in the pick-up truck was Zack thinking out loud. The way he was talking suggested to me that until that moment he hadn't really given much thought to what they'd do after they got back to Midgar; the whole focus had been on getting back in one piece. All the way through their ordeal, he talked to Cloud as if Cloud was perfectly normal. This "hey, we'll go into business together" thing was Zack's way of assuring Cloud he would not be abandoned. He had no reason to suppose Cloud would ever wake up.

Sephiroth knew, we don't know if Zack told him anything. By his reaction, I don't think so. I don't think it's a stretch to say Kunsel and Sephiroth have a bigger intelligence gathering network then Cloud did back in those days. Hell, he may have just figured out he hada girlfriend in the city by virtue of working on the same floor in Shinra Tower as him. And Zack told Cloud as much as his parents.

OK. I'll admit I don't know much about how male friendships work. Maybe it's true that if two guys are BFFs and totes close, they still don't tell each other the names of their girlfriends, or even mention that they have one. Even when they're in the yellow truck driving through the badlands on the last leg of their journey to Midgar, even then Zack only refers to her in front of Cloud as "this girl I know".

 

[Clement Rage]

OK. I'll admit I don't know much about how male friendships work. Maybe it's true that if two guys are BFFs and totes close, they still don't tell each other the names of their girlfriends, or even mention that they have one. Even when they're in the yellow truck driving through the badlands on the last leg of their journey to Midgar, even then Zack only refers to her in front of Cloud as "this girl I know".

Well, it depends. He's been gone for four years, he has know way to know whether she's moved on or not by now, so he doesn't want to presume he still has a relationship -'final' letter, remember. Also, he might be in the habit of not throwing around her name, considering that she's under watch by the Turks and is trying to keep a low profile.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Is there unfortunate implications in the Japanese name being the ruling family of the Chinese culture?

Oh, wow. Did not think of that. XD Shit.

I wonder what happened to the third guy, the truck driver.

It was mentioned in some unused text from the game that he died during the incident with that dragon, though it's unclear if the collision is what caused his death or if it was a more direct attack.

 

[Shademp]

I wonder what happened to the third guy, the truck driver.

What Squall_of_SeeD said. I analyzed this detail in FFVII The Unused Text Part 5 (Page 2). Ctrl+F for "Truck to Nibelheim" and you'll get to the proper section, where I bring up the truck driver after the section where I analyze Sephiroth's character.

 

[Skan]

Re: Cloud & Zack

We can argue this all day, but let's remember that the game also tried to convince us that Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth were ~best friends~ as well.

I admit though that I haven't seen all of Cloud's DMWs though and the only ones uploaded onto Youtube the last I checked were in Japanese. Does anyone have the English scripts for them?

Is there unfortunate implications in the Japanese name being the ruling family of the Chinese culture?

But of course. Given that it's the only Japanese name in the bunch, it's almost certainly done on purpose.

How do you know they don't have an embarrassing name, though? I remember coming across an order of militant priests called 'schokolade' and had a hard time taking them seriously.

That's why you double-check them afterwards!

Also, since you wouldn't use accents when writing Chinese names in fic, it can be difficult for Chinese readers to pin a meaning onto a name. Xiaofeng could be anything from "little phoenix" to "little wind." When I see a romanized Chinese name, I actually don't translate in my head at all; I just read it as a bunch of sounds (and I dislike that some translators of Chinese literature translate names literally).

 

[Cat Rage Room]

What Squall_of_SeeD said. I analyzed this detail in FFVII The Unused Text Part 5 (Page 2). Ctrl+F for "Truck to Nibelheim" and you'll get to the proper section, where I bring up the truck driver after the section where I analyze Sephiroth's character.

Yeah, that reminds me...

I dislike the train of thought that because Sephiroth didn't stop to look for the missing guy who fell off the bridge, that automatically makes him a heartless dick (nonwithstanding that he becomes that anyway). He leaves open the possibility of searching for the missing soldier later, and any soldier worth his salt would not want an entire mission suspended and jeopardized to look for him if he went missing or died on duty.

Seph's right, it does sound cold, but Sephiroth and co aren't a search party and they're not equipped for it at the current time. The best way to go about the situation is to quickly complete the mission as soon as they can so they can possibly rescue the missing grunt later.

 

[Roger]

Re: Cloud & Zack

We can argue this all day, but let's remember that the game also tried to convince us that Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth were ~best friends~ as well.

fair point lol

 

[jazzflower92]

All I can say from how Genesis was portrayed in Crisis Core he is probably the worst friend you could possibly have.

 

[Celes Chere]

I just wanted to say that this is pretty much the code for best friend

 

[Clement Rage]

Prefer this'n myself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBqV1CHhXww&list=UU9B9Y7j8WP1KOLB-8m2y6NA

 

[Shademp]

I just wanted to say that this is pretty much the code for best friend

I just wish the earlier part of the scene wasn't so awkward. It takes Zack eight seconds to point out in surprise that he's talking to Cloud. I blame poor scene direction. Zack has spoken to helmet-less Cloud at least three times before (Modeheim, Junon + DMW sequence(s) ) so Zack's initial line in this scene should have been more like "What's-HEY! Cloud!"

Crisis Core is filled with awkwardly choreographed scenes so I think I'm not pleading too much by saying that we should not take Zack's delayed recognition as a sign of the two being distant.

 

[Skan]

I've seen people just assume/accept that Cloud was bullied in Nibelheim. While I agree that the game baits people to interpret his backstory that way, another look at the canon heavily implies that he instigated a lot of the fights. In fact, if you dig a bit deeper into the canon-not-canon early files, you get some more evidence. Quoting Tifa's (deleted) diary: "To be frank, he was kind of a strange kid. Always getting into fights. It wasn’t like he was fighting because he was angry, more like he was testing something. What was he trying to test? His own strength?"

That could lead to bullying, and I think it did (with Cloud as the victim), but it does raise the strong possibility that Cloud was actually the bully first, before everyone started hating him.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

What I wonder is: did he win those fights? I feel like he must have at east one some of them, given the impressive bouts of physical strength and endurance he displayed even before he got experimented on.

 

[Skan]

I kinda get the impression that he lost more than his fair share, simply because his self-esteem is so wrecked in CC. That could admittedly be attributed mostly to his failure to join SOLDIER, but I like to think of it as something on-going.

Also keep in mind that while Cloud certainly has some extraordinary moments in CC, he has some not-so-stellar ones as well ... need I say anything about Hollander?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I got the impression he lost most of them too, but I still feel like he must have at least won some. One would have to be exceptionally terrible at fighting to get into as many fights as Cloud is implied to have and not win at least a few of them.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I can't remember if Cloud started getting into fights before or after Tifa got hurt before going to Mt. Nibel. Either way, Tifa's dad blamed him for the whole thing and in a small town, that's got to hurt.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, it would. It was after, though, so that was definitely part of the reason -- the feelings of inadequacy plus the undeserved blame.

 

[Skan]

I can't remember if Cloud started getting into fights before or after Tifa got hurt before going to Mt. Nibel. Either way, Tifa's dad blamed him for the whole thing and in a small town, that's got to hurt.

It was after Tifa's accident.

I get the impression that even if Tifa's dad didn't blame him, he would've considered it his own fault anyways. After the accident, he gets torn up by the idea that he's too "weak" and thinks that Tifa blames him for being a weakling. He picks fights to try to prove that he isn't weak both to himself or to other people. This probably causes the other kids in Nibelheim to hate him; before, they probably just thought he was kinda distant/weird/uppity -- he has that "I'm better than everyone else" complex before the accident -- but after he starts brawling around, I can see him being actively hated and picked on.

I am not so sure the other kids in the village would've blamed him for Tifa's accident. Mostly because little kids are sociopaths and don't care about that sorta shit. The ones who would care, i.e. Tifa's friends, knew that she was the one who wanted to go up to Mt. Nibel; Cloud was just tagging along. But that is open to interpretation.

Honestly, I do think Cloud is complete balls at fighting without a sword. He must've won some fights, but I think you can swing it either way, that he won a lot of 'em or lost a lot of 'em.

 

[Roger]

The ones who would care, i.e. Tifa's friends, knew that she was the one who wanted to go up to Mt. Nibel; Cloud was just tagging along. But that is open to interpretation.

Not really, as far as Tifa's friends go, Cloud had absolutely nothing to do with it, they were the only ones tagging along and they decided to leave her to her fate. Obviously they let Tifa's dad keep on believing it was Cloud's fault, which is probably the main reason Tifa recalls Cloud picking fights.

Cloud may not have actually had that troubled a youth, it may very well have been primarily Tifa's dad and Tifa's friends that had a big problem with him rather then the entire village, thus skewing Tifa's perception of things and later on influencing Jenova!Cloud's personality, who derived it's memories from Tifa.

 

[Clement Rage]

I figured those fights were mostly more like scuffles, those kinds of fights don't need to have a clear winner, Shove, get shoved, who can tell who won? Serious fights tend to get clamped down on.