All-New/Extrordinary/Uncanny X-Men (2013-2019) [Marvel]

X-SOLDIER · Apr 21, 2015

This page seems like a really weird way to push his sexuality to gay & not bi which makes more sense: http://i.imgur.com/GlzbTvN.jpg Tbqh, the language there seems kinda messed up ta me in that respect, but mind-reading Jean Grey will snoop minds without permission, so maybe she does know best.

Also, I can't say that I've seen any hinting or build-up to this, and it feels like a last-ditch attempt to make the O!X-M crew feel still relevant. I mean, that changes the tone for every boy-girl flirtatious interaction he ever had, which makes it seem likenrereading a lot of previously comedic moments of his dialogue will feel uncomfortable now.

I mean, high-five for the representation amongst the main cast, but I'd like to have seen it built up to, and not just told to us (and him).

X :neo:

The Twilight Mexican · Apr 21, 2015

Depending on who you ask, it's been building for years. I never saw it, but I do think some past moments work when read that way.

Anywho, here's more pages from the issue:

http://www.newsarama.com/24220-original-x-man-comes-out-as-gay-in-all-new-x-men-40-spoilers.html

Between this, Marvel's preview and those first links I posted, I think at least half the issue is online right now.

X-SOLDIER · Apr 21, 2015

I'm looking forward to seeing some people who have seen it building putting up the little references that I was clearly missing, then! :awesomonster:

X

Roger · Apr 21, 2015

Austen was definitely building towards Bobby being gay. But that's Austen. Anyway, this is telling that the 05 won't disappear into ether after Secret Wars, so bad news i guess.

X-SOLDIER · Apr 22, 2015

Also, I'm really wondering when Young!Jean is gonna get some boundaries for her goddamn telepathy, since someone seems to lecture her about it like every other issue, and now she's still at it to the point that she's reading peoples' minds over their own thoughts about what they're experiencing.

X :neo:

Roger · Apr 22, 2015

X-SOLDIER said:
Also, I'm really wondering when Young!Jean is gonna get some boundaries for her goddamn telepathy, since someone seems to lecture her about it like every other issue, and now she's still at it to the point that she's reading peoples' minds over their own thoughts about what they're experiencing.

X

Yeah, Bendis clearly has no concept of psishielding.

X-SOLDIER · Apr 22, 2015

Reading it all through in the issue -- especially since it takes place after the end of Black Vortex -- provided a lot of additional context, and it was exceptionally sweet. I'm a big fan of how it all went down with everyone involved, unlike before just picking at pages.

Also, with how Black Vortex & All-New left a couple threads hanging, I might actually be a little hopeful for the next UXM issue.

X :neo:

The Twilight Mexican · Apr 22, 2015

Bendis and Marvel Editor-In-Chief Axel Alonso share some comments about the outing

jazzflower92 · Apr 22, 2015

I think making Iceman gay is too much of a retcon. I can understand if he was bisexual but completely gay is another story.

Splintered · Apr 22, 2015

In comics, they retcon the way Nomura uses zippers. It's fine. ~~I didn't even know iceman was gay~~

X-SOLDIER · Apr 22, 2015

jazzflower92 said:
I think making Iceman gay is too much of a retcon. I can understand if he was bisexual but completely gay is another story.

You should probably read the end of Black Vortex & the entirety of All-New X-Men before casting judgement. #JustSaiyan

X :neo:

jazzflower92 · Apr 23, 2015

Splintered said:
In comics, they retcon the way Nomura uses zippers. It's fine. ~~I didn't even know iceman was gay~~

I think it would make more sense still to make him come out as bisexual. Iceman has never in his life shown attraction to other men. Even other gay commentators note that the story was poorly handled.

Geostigma · Apr 23, 2015

Just because the story was handled poorly doesn't mean the character can't be gay regardless of comic history.

The closet door is made of all kinds of wood.

Splintered · Apr 23, 2015

Catwoman was recently turned bisexual right? She never had expressed any sexuality towards women before, at least before the DC reboot. I'm more annoyed with that only because I'm a Batman/Catwoman fan and I feel like before the reboot they were getting close and now they are doing everything in their power to separate them, meanwhile forgetting that we do have a gay catwoman in a stable relationship- where the hell is Holly, but that's less to do with changing sexualities and more with shipping pains and how no one gets to settle down in long term comics.

And if we're going to do a lesbian relationship, is Ivy and Harle canon yet? Because seriously.

jazzflower92 · Apr 23, 2015

Gabriel said:
Just because the story was handled poorly doesn't mean the character can't be gay regardless of comic history.

The closet door is made of all kinds of wood.

I think ignoring history in favor of rewriting a character is kind of lazy and how we end up with Falcon's ill conceived past as a pimp.

Geostigma · Apr 23, 2015

But more than half that history is in a time period where being a homosexual carried a stigma and was largely avoided for far too long. Not saying that's why he was made a straight character initially but just that we don't know the true origins of many characters because the creators probably didn't want to rattle any cages.

Not to mention him being Gay doesn't exactly change his character in a truly fundamental way. It's not a disservice in any way to his past, origins and character and helps people identify with him better while also empowering a community. Whats the big deal? lol

The Twilight Mexican · Apr 23, 2015

jazzflower92 said:
I think ignoring history in favor of rewriting a character is kind of lazy and how we end up with Falcon's ill conceived past as a pimp.

His history wasn't ignored. They outright acknowledge that he's been in relationships with women.

Not saying that the scene itself was all that well-written (it's Bendis :awesomonster:

), but there's nothing problematic about the idea. This sort of thing happens all the time in real life.

I'm going to move the posts specifically discussing Bobby's sexuality into the X-Men thread in a few minutes, by the way.

EDIT: Done.

Ⓐaron · Apr 23, 2015

In addition to what the others have said, comics do this literally all the time. This is probably nowhere near the most extreme or most unbelievable retcon to happen in comics even in the last year. The only reason anyone cares about it is because it retconned a character's sexuality rather than something less controversial.

If you want an example of a retcon that actually does severe disservice to a character's history, I (and probably everyone else on this board) will cite One More Day. I don't think Quesada will ever be forgiven for that one.

Strangelove · Apr 23, 2015

didn't oracle/babs gordon start walking again after years of being in a wheelchair recently?

"And to tell you the truth I am really getting tired of hearing about diversity. Androids, aliens, demons, half demons, quarter demons... That isn't enough diversity?"

this is my favourite argument

(i mean 'favourite' in an ironic not-actually-my-favourite-at-all way)

a bunch of fantasy stuff is totally the same if it doesn't matter to you

"what do you mean, there's no diversity in this fantasy story full solely of caucasians humans? there's some pasty white elves and pale-skinned dwarves right there! that's racial diversity! and these elves are purple, which is nearly black! and the main dude banging this totally hot elf chick is basically the same thing as being gay, right"

make a story where the entire cast is made up of black androids, aliens, demons, half demons, quarter demons, etc. and not a honkey in sight and you can bet that will be "diversity gone mad" or whatever kids and people who act like kids say.

Splintered · Apr 23, 2015

didn't oracle/babs gordon start walking again after years of being in a wheelchair recently?

iirc, that actually was very controversial. I'm not a real reader of comics but I know Oracle was a huge presence in comics, and had better development as her, and definitely thought to have outgrown the batgirl moniker. She's mentored batgirls, and was practically an adoptive mother to at least one. It would be like... if Dick Grayson went back to being Robin.

I heard the run is actually pretty good, but it still annoys me because of the few comics I have read, I read a little Cassandra Cain and I love her run. I'd rather they bring her back.

Lex · Apr 23, 2015

I read somewhere that Bobby's sexuality was ambiguous from his character's inception in the 60's, that he never showed romantic interest in anyone and there's some quip from a villain about interior design, and that it's only fairly recently that he's had romantic relationships with women (due to the movies).

I know fuck all about comics but that's what I read in a few articles yesterday so idk how accurate that is. I've seen some people use the term "straight-washing" re: his character in the movies.

And yeah i'd argue it's not a retcon since you know... sexuality can be fluid, he might be from some alternate timeline or something, who knows. Or y'know, he might have been living in the closet for years because society and shit.

Geostigma · Apr 23, 2015

didn't oracle/babs gordon start walking again after years of being in a wheelchair recently?

Bear in mind I'm insanely insanely behind, I haven't even read Flashpoint yet (yeah i know).

But DC is in the New 52 phase which is the rebooted universe in its entirety after the last Infinite Crisis event. So I don't see the big deal in a character not being in a wheel chair anymore especially since the events that caused her to get in that state haven't happened yet/will happen.

Again haven't caught up yet but I don't see the issue there in regards to the context of the universe. Am I missing something o.O?

edit:

Whoops forgot posts were gonna be moved and posted here lol.

jazzflower92 · Apr 23, 2015

Lex said:
I read somewhere that Bobby's sexuality was ambiguous from his character's inception in the 60's, that he never showed romantic interest in anyone and there's some quip from a villain about interior design, and that it's only fairly recently that he's had romantic relationships with women (due to the movies).

I know fuck all about comics but that's what I read in a few articles yesterday so idk how accurate that is. I've seen some people use the term "straight-washing" re: his character in the movies.

And yeah i'd argue it's not a retcon since you know... sexuality can be fluid, he might be from some alternate timeline or something, who knows. Or y'know, he might have been living in the closet for years because society and shit.

He has a long romantic history with Polaris. Not to mention in the 60's he was shown dating a girl named Zelda Kurtzburg. Also in his origin story as well he saved his girlfriend from some thugs by freezing them. Saying that his interest in women is only because of the movies is really not accurate at all and is older than people think.It would be right to say this is a very unnecessary retcon of his sexuality when there is not even a hint of the fact that he could even be in the closet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_(comics)

http://www.comicvine.com/zelda-kurtzberg/4005-13327/

http://marvel.wikia.com/Judy_Harmon_(Earth-616)

X-SOLDIER · Apr 23, 2015

• Young!Angel, Gamora, Ronan, Kitty, The Slaughter Squad, & Thane are all left with the cosmic power that they obtained from submitting to the Black Vortex.
• Young!Iceman, Groot, Beast, & Tyke-lops all voluntarily gave up the cosmic power they obtained from it.

Beast, Bobby, & Groot all had physical side effects from this -- Beast's mutation changed, Iceman gets the "made of ice" look, and Groot looks totally different. Young!Scott's change (thanks again to Jean mind-reading when she's not supposed to) is supposed to be something in his heart -- which I would guess points to him not following in current Cyclops' footsteps.

What's important about this for the coming out issue of All-New X-Men is that Bobby's been through a cosmic event that pushes him to his absolute ultimate form and powers and changed him, and then changed him back, but didn't leave him the same. If that transformation wasn't enough to trigger differences in how things work for his sexuality, the hint that his attitude and the era he was raised in were responsible for repressing it being totally shattered by his experience lay out a pretty clear case for why he's experiencing what he is. This is the original Iceman LONG before all of his other relationships and things, and removed from the repressive environment of his era (which is also addressed in the comic).

When I just read the initial couple pages, the dismissal of his bisexuality seemed kinda cold & bitchy, but if you read both of the issues, you'll get the important background that really delivers this as a genuine development.

In regards to the comic the thread is about, Beast's development in Black Vortex & Magik's chatting in All-New X-Men makes me actually have some hope in the upcoming Uncanny X-Men with the both of them being something that could potentially redeem some of the bullshit that's been occurring with that comic the last few issues.

Splintered said:
And if we're going to do a lesbian relationship, is Ivy and Harley canon yet? Because seriously.

Harley & Ivy have a really endearing relationship in her ongoing series. Harley is clearly Bi, and the two of them love each other in what seems to be a very open, casual relationship. They're clearly flirtatious and care quite a bit for one another, but both date other people with more direct romantic-type interactions. I really like their whole dynamic in the comic (but there's a thread for that if we wanna get into it all).

X :neo:

The Twilight Mexican · Apr 23, 2015

jazzflower92 said:
He has a long romantic history with Polaris. Not to mention in the 60's he was shown dating a girl named Zelda Kurtzburg. Also in his origin story as well he saved his girlfriend from some thugs by freezing them. Saying that his interest in women is only because of the movies is really not accurate at all and is older than people think.It would be right to say this is a very unnecessary retcon of his sexuality when there is not even a hint of the fact that he could even be in the closet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_(comics)

http://www.comicvine.com/zelda-kurtzberg/4005-13327/

http://marvel.wikia.com/Judy_Harmon_(Earth-616)

Yes, jazz, Bobby has had numerous relationships with women -- just like plenty of gay men in real life.

Are those guys retconning reality when they come out? Or are they a) admitting what they always knew, b) discovering something about themselves, or c) some combination of both?

Hell, past X-Men writer Mike Carey has even said he thought Iceman was supposed to be bi.

All-New/Extrordinary/Uncanny X-Men (2013-2019) [Marvel]

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