All-New/Extrordinary/Uncanny X-Men (2013-2019) [Marvel]

[jazzflower92]

You know there is a thing called being bisexual which would make it more believable for Iceman to be. I mean some people might think they are fully straight until they also feel some attraction for both sexes.

 

[Geostigma]

Why is dating women to cover up your true sexual preference not as believable as being Bi?
Why is coming to terms with your sexuality after dating the opposite sex not as believable as being Bi?

 

[Tennyo]

So I don't read X-Men therefore have no opinion on the matter.

But I did just see this on Twitter:

Plus moar

Apparently there have been subtle hints for years.

 

[null]

Look at me, I can run at light speed without burning to a crisp because LOL speedforce. Nothing makes sense in comics. Not sure why spontaneously turning gay is noteworthy.

 

[Geostigma]

Look at me, I can run at light speed without burning to a crisp because LOL speedforce. Nothing makes sense in comics. Not sure why spontaneously turning gay is noteworthy.

YOU LEAVE SPEEDFORCE OUT OF THIS. IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

You know there is a thing called being bisexual which would make it more believable for Iceman to be. I mean some people might think they are fully straight until they also feel some attraction for both sexes.

They do know. They actually even mention it while discussing his sexuality.

Why is dating women to cover up your true sexual preference not as believable as being Bi?
Why is coming to terms with your sexuality after dating the opposite sex not as believable as being Bi?

I don't think that anyone's saying that it's less believable.

Just to be clear:

What you're seeing is the original version of the character who -- while they're still young and developing has been time-displaced, met his future self, was transformed by the cosmic powers of a celestial artifact, and then transformed back and has been left with a fundamentally different perspective towards himself -- and is still hiding that part of himself when Jean confronts him about it because he makes a comment about someone looking hot, and she picks up on the fact that psychically that isn't what's going on with his thoughts.


To be clear, This was my opinion when reading a few pages before the comic was released and then This is my opinion after actually reading the comic (and I think that I might be the only person in this thread who's read the entirety of All-New X-Men and Black Vortex), sooo.... I thought that the development was shit until I actually read it with appropriate context, just saying that you might need some of that to really look at what's going on and how.

Look at me, I can run at light speed without burning to a crisp because LOL speedforce. Nothing makes sense in comics. Not sure why spontaneously turning gay is noteworthy.

Also, let's not derail this thread with the completely ridiculous "comics don't make sense, so let whatever happens happen" argument, not to mention that that's a DC comic and not a relevant example anyway.





X

 

[Lex]

I just don't understand why there's been so much "ZOMG RETCON" when there are like fifty ways for it not to be a retcon.

In fact, I struggle to think of a way that it actually can be considered a retcon.

If he's always been gay, he was in the closet.
If he's bisexual, he's been suppressing his attraction to men.
If he's sexually fluid, nothing has changed.
If they're from some alt timeline, nothing has changed.

Under which of these circumstances is there any retcon?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I just don't understand why there's been so much "ZOMG RETCON" when there are like fifty ways for it not to be a retcon.

In fact, I struggle to think of a way that it actually can be considered a retcon.

If he's always been gay, he was in the closet.
If he's bisexual, he's been suppressing his attraction to men.
If he's sexually fluid, nothing has changed.
If they're from some alt timeline, nothing has changed.

Under which of these circumstances is there any retcon?

Not to mention the fact that the full-grown Iceman who's dated all these girls that people are using as an example STILL EXISTS and was explicitly stated to not be gay, or to have totally repressed that side of himself (speculated on by Young!Jean & Young!Bobby).




X

 

[Geostigma]

I don't think that anyone's saying that it's less believable.

You know there is a thing called being bisexual which would make it more believable for Iceman to be

That's why I asked those questions lol.

 

[Splintered]

I suppose I could understand the controversy if there's actually shippers of icemanxwhoever because it potentially might mean that their relationship was just a coverup and it never really meant anything. And I guess it would also change if panels about relationships were actually in his POV.

But changing sexuality is just a drop in the bucket when it comes to changing things. Not too long I tried getting into DC comics by reading all the Catwoman comics, and I was really kind of struck with personality shifts in characterizations between writers. Some of them are subtle, some of them not so much, but... things change.

Probably the only time I tried to get into marvel was the Ultimate universe. I know this doesn't count because it's an alt universe. But in it Colossus was gay, and really, nothing changed, it barely registered. What was really offensive is what the fuck they did with Nightcrawler's character, now that was absolute bullshit worthy of getting angry about.

I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore. Just things change, sexuality might change potential love interests but that's about it, I'd be more frightened of something that would completely change his character. Or I would be, but I know nothing about iceman.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I suppose I could understand the controversy if there's actually shippers of icemanxwhoever because it potentially might mean that their relationship was just a coverup and it never really meant anything. And I guess it would also change if panels about relationships were actually in his POV.

Even if you shipped IcemanXWhoever, if you're dealing with the character of Iceman who isn't Young!Iceman, you don't need to feel even remotely bothered by it, because they've already stated that there're differences. I just have to say that for THIS Iceman from the moment he's appeared in All-New X-Men, he's never had relationships let alone PoV ones, and the sort of commentary that Jean called him out on is the most that we've had from him.

That all being said, I can't say how soon out of the Original X-Men timeline they got grabbed, or what relationships he might've had before that, as those would be the only valid ones for this timeline's version of the character.



X

 

[Splintered]

Jean? Jean Grey? I thought she was dead. The Marvel continuity is so overwhelming, I can't keep up with half this shit, I'll probably never get into it.

So who of the big names are dead in the Marvel universe?

 

[Tennyo]

No, this is Jean in the past when they were like teenagers or something. Adult Jean is still dead.

Spoiler

So is Wolverine

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Jean? Jean Grey? I thought she was dead. The Marvel continuity is so overwhelming, I can't keep up with half this shit, I'll probably never get into it.

So who of the big names are dead in the Marvel universe?

This is the entire plot of the All-New X-Men comic.

The original 5 X-Men (Iceman, Angel, Beast, Cyclops, & Jean) are pulled out from their original timeline into the current timeline for the purpose of current Hank McCoy trying to teach Scott Summers a lesson post-AvX without realizing how dangerously myopic and hypocritical his actions are.

It's THAT iceman that came from the past and is in the current events that's gay.

Not the older one that's grown through the timeline of events in the comics outside of All-New X-Men's time-travel shenanigans.


Also, I suppose the fact that we've moved all the posts here, I'm gonna add "All-New X-Men" to this thread title, since it was originally just for the ongoing UXM series, but those kids are largely a part of the New Xavier school, too so they fit in just fine without really derailing things.




X

 

[Splintered]

Okay, one last question, is Xavier still a dick? I've been hearing that nowadays he's been characterized as this huge asshole that does shitty things to people and that actually makes me really sad.

EDIT:

Spoiler

I can't believe they killed Wolverine considering how hard they fap over him at least in all the expanded merchandise

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Some further clarification is needed here: The O5 X-Men who were pulled to the present (their relative present was issue #8 of the original series from the 60s, by the way, X) are the same X-Men as the O5 who grew up in this timeline. Because time is broken after "Age of Ultron" (the comic event from 2013, not the movie), time travel no longer creates branches, so when you travel to the past or the future now, you're traveling to the past or future of your own timeline.

Also, even if Beast plucked the kids from right before that happened (it's a little unclear), he was using Doomlocks, which keep you from traveling outside your timeline while time traveling.

In other words, what's true for this young Iceman should be true for the older Bobby Drake who already occupied the present. I expect they will have a lot to talk about soon.



EDIT:

Okay, one last question, is Xavier still a dick? I've been hearing that nowadays he's been characterized as this huge asshole that does shitty things to people and that actually makes me really sad.

Spoiler

Xavier is dead too.

 

[Splintered]

EDIT:

Spoiler

Xavier is dead too.

Spoiler

Everything is terrible.

 

[null]

Out of curiousity: if timelines don't branch, how are time paradoxes handled now (assuming they've come up at all)? Google isn't turning up any executive summaries on the subject.

 

[Tennyo]

EDIT:

Spoiler

Xavier is dead too.

This I did not know.

Wow, they are really boned, aren't they?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Some further clarification is needed here: The O5 X-Men who were pulled to the present (their relative present was issue #8 of the original series from the 60s, by the way, X) are the same X-Men as the O5 who grew up in this timeline. Because time is broken after "Age of Ultron" (the comic event from 2013, not the movie), time travel no longer creates branches, so when you travel to the past or the future now, you're traveling to the past or future of your own timeline.

Also, even if Beast plucked the kids from right before that happened (it's a little unclear), he was using Doomlocks, which keep you from traveling outside your timeline while time traveling.

In other words, what's true for this young Iceman should be true for the older Bobby Drake who already occupied the present. I expect they will have a lot to talk about soon.



EDIT:

Spoiler

Xavier is dead too.

Well, you're gonna get into a nature vs. nurture argument about sexuality and sexual development because they're teenagers and hormones, not to mention that exposure to the Black Vortex and being cosmically remade twice puts Young!Iceman in a different place that his former self never really got to. I think that Jean & Bobby's discussion about him in comparison to current Iceman covered that really well -- not to mention that Young!Angel is now Young!BlackVortexed!Angel specifically because he wanted to change his fate from what the current Angel had to go through. The O5 aren't the same as their counterparts anymore, (and Cyclops' life is even MORE time-travel fucked than it was before).

Also, Tres -- let's be honest. The time-travel mechanics in ANXM have been right out properly fucked for a long time. We know that if you killed Young!Scott then Present!Cyclops will vanish completely, but there's been no indication that the other changes to them have insta-replicated through the timeline like this, and with Secret Wars crashing everything together, no one really knows how current!Beast/Cyclops/Iceman/Angel will experience when everything wraps back 'round (though I think that this is the whole purpose behind the upcoming Trial of Hank McCoy). But if the Black Vortex Cosmic Beast's calculations are accurate, there ISN'T any replicating anymore, because he ripped their timeline to pieces in a way that it can't ever be repaired.


@Xavier being a dick:

Spoiler

Well, I mean he is dead in the current timeline, except for when Eva 'Tempus' Bell did the exact same thing with him that Beast did with the O5, and proved that both of them are still totally awful, and I'm glad that Xavier returned to his deceased status, because yes -- he's still a massive dick and I'm no longer very fond of Tempus. TBQH, he earned his death in AvX and I'm glad he's gone.

X

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Out of curiousity: if timelines don't branch, how are time paradoxes handled now (assuming they've come up at all)? Google isn't turning up any executive summaries on the subject.

See above post. (tl;dr - post-BlackVortex!Beast will be coming to answer for what's happening, because he saw that what he did by bringing the O5 X-Men back has irrevocably shredded the timeline -- even when he had cosmic level powers, it was completely and irreparably fucked).

Spoiler: Visual Representation of what happened

This I did not know.

Wow, they are really boned, aren't they?

How did you not know that? That was the big conclusion of AvX that set off this whole arc of shitstorm-fueled time travel in the first place: i.e. the whole premise of the storyline of this thread.

Spoiler

But still. I'm glad he's dead, and he deserves to stay that way.

X

 

[Splintered]

People are only sort of dead.
Rules of timetravel being changed randomly.
People getting banned for calling different writers hacks.


This whole things sounds like a weird clusterfuck born from editors being in a perpetually drunken state.

Spoiler

But Xavier wasn't always characterized as a dick, right? I mean, he always made some eh decisions but was he always such a massive douchecanoe or was I right and he was actually a pretty cool bro once upon a time

 

[X-SOLDIER]

People are only sort of dead.

That's only because time travel, and if a person dies in the present, and you're interacting with them visiting from the past, they're still dead.

Rules of timetravel being changed randomly.

Actually there's a really specific arc that dealt with the Doomlocks & all that, and altering how time travel worked. I only just read bits and pieces of it a few months ago (Because Ruby Summers is gonna be part of the Secret Wars: Future Imperfect and I wanted to get background on her).

People getting banned for calling different writers hacks.

Totally different thread.

This whole things sounds like a weird clusterfuck born from editors being in a perpetually drunken state.

Inb4 "That's Bendis for ya."

Spoiler

But Xavier wasn't always characterized as a dick, right? I mean, he always made some eh decisions but was he always such a massive douchecanoe or was I right and he was actually a pretty cool bro once upon a time

Ummmm... I haven't read comics for near long enough, but I think he's always boiled down to the "do as I say, not as I do" when the going gets tough, at least in recent memory. I've never really been big on Xavier -- though I reserve the right to alter my opinions (or not) on all X-Men in their '92 Secret Wars comic depending on how that goes.




X

 

[Tennyo]

How did you not know that? That was the big conclusion of AvX that set off this whole arc of shitstorm-fueled time travel in the first place: i.e. the whole premise of the storyline of this thread.

Spoiler

But still. I'm glad he's dead, and he deserves to stay that way.

Okay, maybe I did know, but I forgot.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Out of curiousity: if timelines don't branch, how are time paradoxes handled now (assuming they've come up at all)? Google isn't turning up any executive summaries on the subject.

As X alluded to, paradoxes just aren't resolved anymore. Beast tried to send the O5 home and couldn't. Time is broken, thanks in part to Beast, thanks in part to Wolverine, and thanks in part to all the heroes and villains across the multiverse who have made time their bitch for far too long.

What Beast did with the O5 and the events of "Age of Ultron" (thanks, Wolverine) were the straws that broke the camel's back, though. Now, it's all coming apart, and between this and the Incursions (cross-dimensional collisions that wipe out both universes) that have been going on in "Avengers" and "New Avengers," there's going to be nothing left of the old order of things.

The premise of "Secret Wars" will be as close to a paradox resolution as we see -- all previously existing universes will be destroyed.

Well, you're gonna get into a nature vs. nurture argument about sexuality and sexual development because they're teenagers and hormones, not to mention that exposure to the Black Vortex and being cosmically remade twice puts Young!Iceman in a different place that his former self never really got to. I think that Jean & Bobby's discussion about him in comparison to current Iceman covered that really well -- not to mention that Young!Angel is now Young!BlackVortexed!Angel specifically because he wanted to change his fate from what the current Angel had to go through. The O5 aren't the same as their counterparts anymore, (and Cyclops' life is even MORE time-travel fucked than it was before).

Fair enough. I will point out, though, that young Bobby doesn't indicate that this is a new thing for him. He says he had thought he was crazy. If it could just be attributed to the prior few days (the events of "The Black Vortex"), then he would likely say so.

So, at 15-16, the Iceman of the present would have been in the same place as this Bobby of the past.

Ummmm... I haven't read comics for near long enough, but I think he's always boiled down to the "do as I say, not as I do" when the going gets tough, at least in recent memory.

He really has, yeah. It's just that the revelations about him have gotten ever more douchey over the years.

It really has been going on for decades, though. Which isn't to say his heart wasn't in the right place, but he still did lots of fucked shit.