Buffyverse Discussion (Spoilers)

Whedonverse Discussion (Spoilers)

I think it's time to open up a dialogue about this show, because I think it's my all time favourite show (I kind of include Angel in that too, they're both Buffyverse after all) and I know there are a fair few Buffy fans on here.

It would be nice to talk about it with you guys.

There is another Buffy thread but I thought it would be best to start fresh, including Angel and spoilers without the tags. So if anyone hasn't watched either show - go do that now. Seriously your life will be better because it's so damn awesome.

I was obsessed with it when I was younger, and I still tend to watch it all from start to finish at least once a year. Even if I'm doing other things while it's on in the background, it's a bit like my safety blanket. Like I tend to re-watch them all when I move to a new place too.

So favourite characters etc?

One thing I really want to hear people's opinions about is Cordelia. Sure, she's annoying (if funny) and completely shallow on Buffy, but it's so amazing how she becomes this fantastic character on Angel and I loved her so much, to the point that I wanted her to end up with Angel instead of Buffy. (Buffy is my preferred show of the two btw, but they're both great).

One thing I wish they'd done is have Cordelia come back to Buffy at some point in Season 6 or 7, just for an episode or two. I know why they didn't (the different networks etc) and from a story standpoint there was really no reason for Cordelia to ever go back - it was always very clear she'd outgrown the place. It would have been so fantastic to see the Buffy gang adjusting to how much she's grown and changed as a person. I kind of feel like they got used to shallow bitchy Cordelia and now that's all they have of her. Like none of them ever really got to know the "real" Cordelia.

She's not even my favourite character, she's just my "honourable mention" character because I feel like she doesn't get enough love. Seriously cannot get over her amazingness in Angel, although don't get me started on how pissed off I get about what they did (or almost did) to her character in Season 4. And then season 5 of course.

Favourites from Buffy: Willow, Giles, Tara, Anya. In that order.
Favourites from Angel: Fred, Cordelia, Lilah (how awesome is she at being a bitch!?), Lorne.

I've intentionally avoided the titular characters because I don't know where they fit in on my list tbh. I love them both though. Then there's Faith, who I thought was so fucking awesome but she ends up almost equally awesome on both shows so I don't know where to put her either.

The people I wanted the main characters to end up with: Cordelia with Angel and Buffy with no one. Joss Whedon rips your heart out of your chest of course.

I'm going to be randomly watching episodes while forgetting about studying as well as re-watching over the summer so I'll be keeping the thread alive with my own nonsense anyway.

At some point I need to read the comic continuations for both of the shows. Haven't done that yet

Dear god, I love Spike & Angel.




I watched WAY more of Angel than I did of Buffy, but all of it was a very long time ago.



X

A lot of people have a huge hard on for Spike, and I get it, I do. It's not even just limited to Americans, because his accent genuinely sounds British (I was really shocked when I found out he wasn't, in all honesty).

But having seen Buffy first, the character got old for me pretty quickly. Although Joss seems to have no problem killing beloved characters, there are others he kept when IMO he should have either written them out then back in, or killed them. The two I can think of from Buffy are Spike and Anya. Although I loved Anya so SO much (some of those one liners from her absolutely kill me), it started to feel like the story didn't need either her or Spike pretty early into them actually being there.

I'm at a point now where in the later seasons Spike genuinely just gets on my nerves sometimes. It's a different story when he comes to Angel, he fits in there surprisingly well (because of his past with Angel and their interaction, of course). Might have been better if they'd moved him there full time sooner, although I suppose that puts a bit of a spanner in Season 7 of Buffy and Spike getting his soul back at the end of Season 6 etc.

The only character I feel this way about on Angel is Gunn. I plain don't like him to the point that he ruins some episodes for me. He's just so bloody boring.

I didn't get into this show until much after it stopped airing, when my sister in law was obsessed with the show.

In a weird turn of events, I ship Buffy and Angel but I hated the way they were presented in the first few seasons. I hated Angel until season 2/3 of his own show where he suddenly got awesome. And if not Buffy and Angel, Angel should be miserable as the platonic odd couple with Spike for the rest of eternity.

Also, I love Cordelia. I always loved Cordelia. And I wasn't fond of Buffy until season 5, when Dawn came in and she stepped up in a wonderful way. But even then I was watching for the other cast.

I really liked Xander, which I know annoys people. He's a bit of a wiener, a hypocrite, and usually wrong... but I still really enjoy his character. I also really like Giles, Andrew, and Oz.

For Angel, my favorites were Cordelia, Fred, and Illyria. I find it strange than in a strongly feminist show I like the guys better, and for the more "stereotypical" show I like the girls better but oh well.

Oh and can I take a moment to say... the comics really upset me. I was keeping up for awhile with the Buffy and Angel comics (liked Angel better), but I stopped and apparently some of the shit went straight to hell. Not to whine about shipping, but fucking Xander/Dawn? No, not, please god no.

I fucking love those series.

I say don't bother with the comics. The XanderxDawn coupling is about the only thing I do like about them. Just don't bother.

I watched Buffy and Angel from the airing of their first episodes, having already seen the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" movie with Kristy Swanson way back in the day and loving it. I even still have the novelization of that. Anyway, I loved both shows and was obsessed with both through a huge chunk of my childhood.

Like most people, I enjoyed the supporting cast members more than the eponymous stars, though both are fantastic character with superb actors. I think I can safely say I enjoyed Angel (the character) more than Buffy (the character), though, while I love Buffy as an idea just as much.

Cordelia: Loved her to bits when she was a bitch; loved her even more when she grew up. Wish they had kept her alive to be with Angel. That was a far better pairing for him than Buffy. It just felt right.

So, yeah, loved the fuck out of these shows. Though it occurs to me now just how goddamn depressing both could be. Especially season 4 of Angel. Jesus holy fuck.

I just recently watched through both series again.

And yeah, season 4 of Angel was just...ugh. @.@

I'm gonna read the comics though.
I'd like to make up my own mind about them.

Buffy and Angel were the very first supernatural shows I ever got into, and I still love them now. I could go on and on all day about them both, but there is one particular highlight I need to share:

Out. For. A. Walk.
Bitch.

I love this thread and am very excited you made it, Lex. Will type up stuff later

So guys.

Remember when Hawkeye was a hipster vampire on Angel?

^ WHAT THE HELL

That's so funny Which ep is that??

That's from somewhere in season 1 I think. The dood and his gf have a history with Angel and at the start of the episode Angel kills the gf, then he gets his heart ripped out to make himself indestructible for 24 hours so he can kill Angel.

Re: dancing

Fangu said:

^ WHAT THE HELL

That's so funny Which ep is that??

Click to expand...

S1E11 "Somnambulist"

*runs over the Welcome to Sunnydale sign in a blacked-out car, lights cigarette* Home, sweet home

But seriously, just rewatched the entirety of Buffy and Angel from "Welcome to the Hellmouth" all the way through to "Won't Fade Away." All is good and there is too much goodness. Except Riley Finn, that poncey little sod can go suck a dick

I was always between liking Riley one minute and then hating him the next. He turned into such a me me me dick towards the end of his time. It's not Buffy's fault she's the Chosen One.

On Riley:
The first time I watched season 4, 5 and 6 I wasn't a fan, especially not through 4. But then I started liking him, because he has his own journey, his own experience of growing up. Here is a guy who thinks he can handle anything, he's got a clear sense of what he's doing and why he's doing it. Then along comes Buffy, which is something and someone he can't control. With Buffy he discovers his Initiative isn't what he thought it was. His once clear understanding of things as black and white now blends into a color of grey, and he no longer sees clearly which 'side' he is on, and what he is fighting for. He's basically the soldier boy who has to rethink his direction in life, and learn that he has to trust himself and his own instincts to find the right decision in every situation, because there is no true 'right' path.

Plus there's the heartbreaking scene when he tells Xander he's fully aware Buffy doesn't love him (even though Buffy says she does). I think that scene is my top 10 in the series. Riley understands Buffy in ways she doesn't herself, and in the end he leaves her because Buffy has to be Buffy. He accepts her legacy and purpose.

I also love the episode in season 6 when he comes back with his wife. They handled the whole 'revisiting an ex' stuff sooo well, from Riley not telling her he's married because when he does it will break his little bubble of re-experiencing happiness with Buffy, to Willow promising she'll hate the wife no matter what, to Riley showing he clearly still cares for Buffy, but loves his wife and new life. And then Buffy running off to do drugs Spike because she's in desperate need of someone telling her she has worth and that she is still wanted. The writing in that episode is superb.


Top 10 episodes in no particular order (I'm probably forgetting half of them)

* When she was bad - Buffy being a bitch to cope with past experiences - so win
* Fool for love - finally you understand Spike's obsession with slayers
* Season 5 finale
* Family - the tears, THE TEARS!!
* Once more with feeling
* Hush - it's pure brilliance and introduces major plot points
* The one where Giles is a demon - holy fuck it's hilarious
* The one where Joyce and Giles are teenagers - Band Candy, holy crap I love that episode
* The Anya episode in season 7
* Innocence - truly the loss of innocence for Buffy, in several ways. The end scene where she says (about the birthday candle) "I'll just let it burn" breaks my heart so bad.


Honorable mentions; the ones that didn't make the list........ and this list is probably a lot longer

* Normal again - AAA BRAIN TWISTER
* The one where Willow has an evil twin
* Tabula Rasa - hilarious, and you know shit's about to hit the fan
* The one in season 3 where Joyce dates a robot - well done take on the "my mother is dating a psychopath and only I know it"
* Hell's Bells - The wedding episode of season 6
* Earshot
* Fear, Itself
* The Body - simply for being brilliant
* Season 6 finale - I love love love how it is Xander, the "earth pony", that saves the world
* The episode in season 4 where Harmony is the villain - I LOVE HARMONY!!
* The Halloween ep in s3 where they become their costumes - so funny

The only episode I truly didn't like was s03e01. It's just... boring. And the one where Buffy and Riley has sex the entire episode is also pretty tame.

Quality is a bit shit but

I love Fangu's whole post <3 All that you said about Riley is why I could honestly feel bad for the guy when shit got rough, and laugh when he managed a good joke and so on despite... y'know... hating his guts Also love the hell out of your favorite episode list.

On a side note, I have Tara's song "I'm Under Your Spell" from OMWF stuck in my head now, and I blame you lot for it

Excellent post, Fangu. I really enjoyed reading and it brought back a lot of memories of the show. When all of my American (and some British) shows finish in the next few weeks or so, I'm going to have a huuuge Buffy/Angel marathon.

Episode chat yay!!!

A few of your favourites are mine too Fangu. There are the obvious ones like Once More With Feeling and The Gift but I like these too (from both shows obviously):

Buffy Season 3

The Wish: Alt universe episodes are always great fun. Does a good job at addressing Cordelia's character/ personality vs. how she really feels.

Dopplegangland (the one with Willow's evil twin like you mentioned, it's so win and foreshadows her being gay XD, hilarious. "Gosh, look at those!")

Graduation Day parts 1 and 2: Man, what a fantastic way to end the high school saga. Such supreme awesomeness, I love the moment at the very end when they take a moment... for a really short moment. Also the dream sequence with Buffy and Faith - "Little Miss Muffet counting down from 730" foreshadowing Buffy's death exactly two years later at the end of "The Gift" in season 5 - that's some damn good preparation.

Buffy Season 4/ Angel Season 1

Hush: Everyone knows why Hush is great. It's just a fantastic episode.

A New Man: Giles as a demon, man this episode ENDS ME. It's so so so funny! It was so great to have a Giles-centric episode and does really well at addressing his relevance. It's also really heartwarming. I absolutely love the moment when he asks Spike to stop the car and gets out to chase Maggie Walsh away!

This Year's Girl and Who Are You (Buffy), Five by Five and Sanctuary (Angel): Faith returns and causes havoc. Can't go wrong there! Her following arc on Angel Season 1 is also phenomenal. I like these episodes because the general feel of Season 4 is very "new", so bringing Faith back into the mix kind of grounded the season for me, if that makes any sense? There's a lot up in the air in season 4 (Giles's relevance, Xander's relevance, Willow's orientation, Buffy's maturity and love life etc) so a continuation of something from the high school era was something I liked. I also love the way Faith is portrayed. You desperately try to sympathise with her and understand her but she's just a train wreck, in the end it's really fitting that Angel is the one to help her because Buffy symbolises everything she never had and the murder of her "father" really, in her eyes.

The Yoko Factor: Again addressing the relationship between our core four and how it's changed in Season 4. It's a bit depressing, my favourite part is when they discover what Spike has managed to do at the very start of "Primeval" but this episode sets it up really well and I'm not a big fan of Primeval as an episode. It's good, but not amazing.

Restless: MY GOD FORESHADOWING EVERYWHERE. You can analyse this episode until you die, it's just excellent. I particularly like the score when Buffy goes to the desert, I have it somewhere. Tara: "Be back before Dawn". Lawl.

Buffy Season 5/ Angel Season 2

Real Me: Purely for the continuation of the Little Miss Muffet reference - a random crazy guy on the street says "I know you - Curds and Whey" to Dawn. I didn't actually make the connection until I had watched the show through about 4 times.

Family: Tara <3

Checkpoint: When the council comes to Sunnydale to "review" Buffy before giving her information on Glory. The end is the best: ".....oh."

The Body: This is one I appreciate from an artistic point of view, it's very well done and it's heartbreaking. But man it's depressing as hell.

Spiral - The Weight of the World and The Gift: I LOVE THESE THREE EPISODES TOGETHER SO SO MUCH. Glory is win.

I also love the Pylea arc at the end of Season 2 of Angel. A lot of people didn't like it but I thought it was excellent - introducing Fred, travelling to another dimension etc.

Buffy Season 6/ Angel Season 3

Once More With Feeling: For obvious reasons. I still love the songs. My favourite has to be Giles and Tara singing the "Standing/Under Your Spell Reprise) towards the end.

Tabula Rasa: Just incredibly fun. And also extremely similar to the season 4 episode of Angel - "Spin the Bottle".

Fredless: Fred almost leaves and then doesn't. Does a really good job of addressing her relevance as a character and how everyone feels about her.

Birthday: This is a phenomenal episode, and stands out from both shows for me. There's heartbreaking drama, it really addresses Cordelia's character and how she's evolved (and it's not subtle about it either) and I just absolutely love the twist at the end. So amazing.

Waiting in the Wings: We finally get some Angel/ Cordelia action, even if they are possessed. It's hilarious when they come out of the room and Angel takes his jacket off to hide his erection, serious laughing every time.

Buffy Season 7/ Angel Season 4

Lessons: It's really just all about the bit at the end when The First turns into all the previous "Big Bads".

Selfless: The Anya-is-a-demon-again-and-we're-finally-addressing-it episode. I love it because Anya's hilarious in it.

Him: Can't describe how hilarious I find this episode. At first glance it seems like it's going to be really boring (Dawn has a crush, ugh) but then it has one of the best "montages" in the whole show IMO.

"Willow, you're a gay woman!"
"So?"
"And he... isn't!?"
"This isn't about his physical presence!"
"His physical presence has a PENIS!"
"I CAN WORK AROUND IT!".

So funny.

Conversations with Dead People: What a bloody fantastic episode. The First is threatened by Willow and in a heartbreaking moment tries to convince her Tara wants her to kill herself. I just love Willow's reaction when she realises what's going on. The way she says "Who are you?" gives me shivers.

Showtime: Just the reveal where the group talk to each other in secret and plan the whole thing to show the Potential slayers that they can beat the uber-vamps.

Get it Done: Finally, slayer/watcher origin story. It's dark, twisted and prophetic. I love this episode.

Spin the Bottle: Angel being horrified that he's a vampire and thinking cars are demons. And being in the bathroom changing back and forward from vampire to human. This is an excellent episode. Also, the return of bitchy Cordelia! Really draws attention to how much she's changed.

The Magic Bullet: Fred being alone really lets her shine as a character.

Angel Season 5

You're Welcome: Dear god this might be the saddest episode ever. But it's incredibly important, both for reminding Angel why he's doing what he's doing (the Season 1 throwbacks are excellent) and it's an amazing end to an amazing character. The twist at the end is hard to catch the first time round.

A Hole in the World: Heartbreaking again. A mere two episodes after "You're Welcome". The first time I watched it I was so engrossed I actually somehow didn't realise Amy Acker didn't go anywhere. Don't ask me how, because I really don't know XD.

So yeah, those are all standout episodes for me. I haven't included anything from Season 1 and 2 of Buffy because I feel like everything that came after that just outshines them to be honest. A lot of people are huge fans of season 2 but I just don't get the same enjoyment out of it - I think as I've grown I've become jaded about the angsty relationship between Buffy and Angel, which ruins a lot of season 2 for me.

Season 3 might be my favourite Buffy season. The introduction of Faith, the characters are all more mature and it has some of my favourite episodes. Season 4 of Buffy lacks the consistency and stability of the seasons before and after it, but it has some amazing standout episodes. As a whole I find it kind of lacking though, it's more "The Initiative" than anything else. I think they tried to be a bit too Sci-Fi instead of Supernatural there. Season 5 of Buffy is up there with season 3 for me, I love them both.

6 is just too depressing. I always watch it through because there are a lot of excellent moments and episodes, but the "trio" pissed me off so much. We get to see a kind of broken version of Buffy which is good for her character IMO, but I wish it had been handled differently. I do like that Willow ended up being the "surprise" villain in the end, I thought that was great (especially her frank and angry conversations with every character and the way she lashed out, it was good to see a dark side to Willow) but I hate the way Tara was killed, and the fact that she was killed. I know Amber Benson declined to come back to the show for "Conversations with dead people" in Season 7 because she didn't want to taint the memory of the character, but I've also read in places that the original plan was to have an episode where Buffy is granted one wish, and after agonising for the whole episode about what wish to make, Willow asks her what she ended up wishing for and Buffy steps aside revealing Tara. I don't know if that was actually planned or someone made it up, but I think it would have been amazing either way. I loved Tara and felt like she never really got a chance to shine. Kennedy just pissed me the fuck off.

Season 7 of Buffy is missing something, but it's still an excellent season.

I won't do the same breakdown for all 5 seasons of Angel, but 1, 2, 3 and 5 all have their own seperate merits. 4 has Angelus and some amazing episodes towards the end (pre and post Jasmine) but the character assassination of Cordelia really pissed me off. OK, it wasn't really her, but that didn't make watching it any more enjoyable. And I despise Connor with every fibre of my being. The thing that saddens me about season 4 is that technically the last time we see the "real" Cordelia is at the end of Season 3. The end of season 3/ all of season 4 pisses me off simply because Connor is in it. Man do I hate that character. Aside from the annoyingness of his character in general, his hair really pisses me off.

Season 5 of Angel is missing Cordelia and Fred. Fred goes from being a bit of a badass at the end of Season 4 to fulfilling the girly/motherly role (a gap left by Cordelia) at the start of Season 5, which annoyed me. Other than that, Season 5 is actually pretty fantastic episode wise. I understand the ending, and it is good but I wish it hadn't been cancelled. From what I've read Joss's plans for Season 6 were amazing.

Buffyverse... this is one series I wanted to like, but was never able to. I'm pretty sure this is largely in part because I had read Yu Yu Hakusho, Bleach, Vampire Knight, Naruto and a bunch of other supernatural anime/manga before I even knew what the series was about.

The other reason was that I couldn't get passed the fact that most of the cast were "minority characters" not, "characters that happen to be a minority". It felt like once I figured out what cliches/stereotypes everyone was, I could predict how they would react in whatever situation they found themselves in. So by the time Season 4/Angel rolled around the series has pretty much turned into "let's see what holes they dig themselves into this time". I probably would have liked it better if it was told from all the villains pov.

The flip side of this is that relationship drama is not my preferred type of storyline; I find it boring. I prefer action, worldbuiling, etc. all of which the Buffyverse scarifies to make way for the relationship stuff.

So yeah, Buffyverse is not my cup of tea.

gOD I LOVE BUFFY SO MUCH

I unfortunately don't have time to post a dissertation about how much I love it but I still needed to express it in some small way ;o;

Definitely going to keep an eye on this thread foreverrrr

When you have time make a post! I'm loving the fact that there are a lot of people on here who like it, I knew there was.

I'm watching Season 4 of Buffy right now (at night just before sleepytaimu) and it's a hoot. I'm just going to finish season 4 then hit season 1 of Angel as time passes .

Okay, here's the thing about Dark Willow:

I could never take her seriously. She was evil and powerful and stuff and she flayed somebody alive. And still.

She's Alyson Hannigan. She's a cuteface. She just doesn't do evilness convincingly. She just transitioned from cuteface to veiny cuteface.


Also, Oz. What a laid-back guy. He was like, the laid-backest guy ever.