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Buffyverse Discussion (Spoilers)

Fangu

Great Old One
^ I see your point about evil Willow. For me, the terror about her was best portrayed through the terror in Buffy and Xander about her change. Oh, and Giles, when he confronts her. By the way, if I was to name my Top 10 scenes (which I will!)
(Okay I'm procrastinating I'll do it right now)

Ok I'll rename them "Top 10 Emotional Scenes" because they aren't really my WOO AWESOME scenes, but the scenes that has affected me the most and almost always makes me cry...

* Willow and Tara finding each others powers when in danger in 'Hush'
* "I'll just let it burn" - Buffy grows up through life's hard lessons in 'Innocence'
* Anya's song about how she defined herself through Xander, and so explaining why she went back to being a vengeance demon after he left her at the altar ('Selfless')
* Buffy deciding to 'not be normal' in "Normal"
* The 'family' coming together to protect Tara
* (I'll include this because it's the Buffy character) That awful episode in Angel where Buffy and Angel has actual happiness, but then Angel has to give it up to save the world, Buffy's memory is wiped and he's the only one to remember - MY HEART, IT HURTS SO BAD
* Xander stopping evil Willow - or, more so, Willow breaking down (we don't want to see Alyson Hannigan sad, EVER)
* Buffy finally finding optimism after evil Willow is stopped - by realizing she wants to teach Dawn how to handle herself and to trust her instead of being angsty about protecting her
* Buffy jumping off the tower in The Gift

... and here it is:
* Giles returning to stop evil Willow (AAAAA FINALLY HE'S BACK PLEASE SAVE US ALL)

I'm probably forgetting a million others but these are the ones I can remember of the top of my head, so they must mean something.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
To add to your list, Fangu, one of the moments that has stuck with me the most is when Spike is reunited with Buffy at the beginning of Season 6. More to the point, this quote from "After Life":

"But I want you to know I did save you. Not when it counted, of course, but after that. Every night after that. I'd see it all again ... I do something different. Faster or more clever, you know? Dozens of times, lots of different ways ... Every night I save you."
 

Lex

Administrator
* Giles returning to stop evil Willow (AAAAA FINALLY HE'S BACK PLEASE SAVE US ALL)

"I'd like to test that theory."

WIN.

I never had a problem taking dark Willow seriously. She's a powerful (maybe the most powerful in the world? Do the comics ever expand on this?) pissed off witch, I'd be getting the hell out of there XD.
 

Ami

Playing All The Stuff!
AKA
Amizon, Commander Shepard, Ellie, Rinoa Heartilly, Xena, Clara Oswald, Gamora, Lana Kane, Tifa Lockhart, Jodie Holmes, Chloe Price.
Ooh, when you mentioned Giles coming back to stop Willow, I'm so glad they cast Anthony Head as him. I'm sure I read somewhere he was originally going to be American, but Joss wanted him to be British because British is what he thought when librarians came to mind. I'm practically a huge fan of him; his one-liners are brilliant. The episode where he's a demon is a particular highlight of mine.

I'm pretty much a huge fan of most characters. I have to agree with Lex: season three was definitely one of the best. I loved the introduction of Faith, the idea of having a "bad slayer" for once. I especially loved the body swap she had with Buffy, definitely an interesting turnaround.

I'll post more highlights when I can think of them!
 

Ami

Playing All The Stuff!
AKA
Amizon, Commander Shepard, Ellie, Rinoa Heartilly, Xena, Clara Oswald, Gamora, Lana Kane, Tifa Lockhart, Jodie Holmes, Chloe Price.

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I still remember realizing he was the guy from those instant coffee commercials back in the day and breaking down laughing :monster:
 

Lex

Administrator
^Another american thing we brits missed out on.

I remember watching Buffy when I was like 10, and my dad telling me how Anthony Stewart Head's stage name is "Tony Head" in Britain so either the Americans made him use his full name or he changed it because he became all pretentious.

It's hilarious because of the way my dad said it. "Anthony Stewart Head!? Ee's naim's TOANY HEID! HAHAHA. Whit's Toany Heid dain wi that name!?"

Couldn't really argue because I didn't know any better, turns out he was right about it anyway :monster:
 

Lex

Administrator
Just watched Tough Love from season 5. Sad times but badass Willow totally makes up for it, I love this episode so so much. I OWE YOU PAIN!
 

Lex

Administrator
Quadruple post of death but lookey lookey what I found - the original Script for Conversations With Dead People (the one where The First was originally supposed to use Tara to speak to Willow instead of Cassie but Amber Benson couldn't come back):

INT. U.C. SUNNYDALE LIBRARY - NIGHT

CLOSE ON WILLOW

Who still sleeps on her book. But something rouses her. Her eyes flicker open. She sits up, sensing that she's not alone. Then her eyes fix on something. Stop.

REVEAL

TARA, sitting on the table, across from her. Willow just takes her in, too stunned to speak. Tara smiles.

EXT. GRAVEYARD - NIGHT

INT. U.C. SUNNYDALE - LIBRARY

Back to Willow's stunned face. Tara still sits across from her, still looking at Willow lovingly.

TARA
Hey.

Willow blinks.

WILLOW
Hey?

TARA
I'm sorry to wake you.

Willow smiles a little regretfully.

WILLOW
Ha...

TARA
Ha - what?

WILLOW
Is that like a dream joke thing?
You're sorry to wake me, but I'm
clearly not awake and if I was awake
and you really were here, would you
be sorry to wake me up? I mean, after
all this time and - Oh God, I'm
babbling. I'm dream babbling and
it's the best dream of my life and
I'm wasting it and-

TARA
(gently)
I just meant, I liked watching you sleep.

WILLOW
Oh.

Now the emotion of it all really penetrates. Dream or not - Tara is near her. Talking to her. Loving her. Willow fights tears.

WILLOW (cont'd)
Oh... Oh God, Tara...
Tara gets emotional as well.

TARA
Shhhh, baby-

Willow reaches out to take Tara's outstretched hand, but Tara gently moves it away. Willow looks stricken.

WILLOW
Sorry. Sorry. I didn't mean to-

TARA
(regretful)
It's okay. I want you to. But I
don't think I can. Touch.

Tara shifts on the table, like she's about to stand up.

WILLOW
Wait! Don't! Don't leave-

TARA
I'm not. I was just - my skirt was
bunching up.

WILLOW
Oh.
(quickly/desperate)
So we'll just sit. We'll sit here.
And if the dream, or possibly ghosty,
rules are no touching, that's fine.
Just don't go. Okay?

TARA
Willow-

WILLOW
I think I'm kind of hyperventilating.

TARA
Will-

WILLOW
No, it's okay. Just...

Willow leans over. Tries to catch her breath. Disappears behind the table.

WILLOW (cont'd)
(O.C.)
Give me a minute.

Tara walks around to her. Willow practically has her head between her knees. Tara kneels and meets her eyes, despite the awkward, crouchy positions.

TARA
Sweetie-

Willow is crying now. Like her heart is breaking.

WILLOW
It hurts so much. I miss you so much.

TARA
I know. I know-

WILLOW
I keep telling myself, better to have
loved, right? And lost? Like, at
least we had that. But sometimes I
wish...

TARA
It's okay-

Willow sits up now. Almost panicky.

WILLOW
It's not okay! It's so much worse
now. Like, you filled my life up.
You made it bigger. And when you...
The hole you left is so deep. I'm
never going to fill it up. I'm never
going to...

TARA
You can. You will.

WILLOW
How? You're gone.

TARA
But you're not. And you're strong.
Like an Amazon, remember?

Willow can't help but smile a tiny rueful smile through her tears.

WILLOW
Big snotty weepy Amazon.

TARA
Gotta start somewhere.

They hold each other's gaze - connecting.

INT. BRONZE - NIGHT

INT. U.C. SUNNYDALE LIBRARY - NIGHT

We're back with Willow and Tara, who continue their conversation where they left off.

WILLOW
I don't know... I don't know where
to start.
(with difficulty)
Tara. After Warren shot you. I had
a very... dramatic reaction. I
killed him. I mean, really, really
killed him. And then...

TARA
I know. And I know what you tried to
do.

WILLOW
You do? There's gossip where you are?

TARA
It's not like that. I just know.

Willow nods. Accepts this. Then-

WILLOW
It was horrible. I was horrible. I
lost myself. The regular me.

TARA
You were grieving-

WILLOW
A lot of people grieve. They don't
make with the flaying.
(scared)
I hurt so many people. All my
friends. Buffy, Xander, Giles... I
didn't care. I wanted to erase them
all. I wanted to erase the whole
world.

TARA
It wasn't you. It was the power.

WILLOW
But I am the power. It's in me.
(quickly)
Did I mention random destruction of
property? The magic box is... not so
much a box now-

TARA
(ignoring)
The power is bigger than you, that's
what I always tried to tell you.

WILLOW
I know. You were right-

TARA
You just have to stop. You can't use magic
again. Not ever.

WILLOW
(confused)
Black magic. Of course. But Giles
says it isn't as simple as quitting
it all cold turkey. He says I have
to learn to use my power for good.
The magic is in me now, and if I try
to repress it, it's going to end
up coming out again - in a bad way.

TARA
(shakes her head)
It's too dangerous. You can't take
the chance that you'll lose control.

WILLOW
I don't want to. I can't. But the
stuff Giles and the coven taught me
in England - it helped.
(then)
And, you know, all I have to do is
think of the look on Dawnie's face -
when I tried to... When I said such
awful things to her. I never want to
see that look again. I never want to
cause that kind of pain.

TARA
I know you don't.

WILLOW
(hopeful)
So I won't. I'm going to be okay.

TARA
(gently)
Oh, baby. You're not listening.
Don't you understand?
You're not going to be okay. You're
going to kill everybody.

OFF WILLOW'S STUNNED REACTION.

END OF ACT THREE

INT. U.C. SUNNYDALE LIBRARY - NIGHT

Willow still looks completely stunned. The way you would if your dead lover just told you you were going to kill everybody. Tara looks regretful - she hates to be the bearer of such tragic information.

WILLOW
I'm going to... what?

TARA
It's why I came. I needed to warn
you.

Willow starts to grow increasingly agitated and tearful.

WILLOW
How do you know? What do you know?

TARA
(grimly)
You don't want to know what I saw.

WILLOW
Oh God...

TARA
But if you stop. Completely. No
more magic-

WILLOW
Right. Right. Stop.
(then)
But what about Giles? He made it
seem like it would be just as
dangerous for me to quit completely.
Like I'll go off the deep end again.

TARA
You can't. Willow, if you do so much
as another spell...

Willow is in a full blown panic now. Tara also looks scared. The fate of the world hangs in the balance.

WILLOW
I tried to stop. I tried. What if
I can't do this?

TARA
Don't think that way-

WILLOW
How can I not? You're telling me I'm
going to murder all my friends!
(desperate)
I'm not strong, Tara. I'm not an
Amazon. I'm just me. Look what I
did before...

Tara thinks... A horrible beat. Then-

TARA
There is one thing. One thing you
could do to stop it.

WILLOW
What? Anything.

TARA
You could sleep.

A beat as Willow comprehends what Tara is saying.

Her expression shifts. Distrust and anger darken her features.

WILLOW
Who are you?

INT. U.C. SUNNYDALE LIBRARY - NIGHT

Now Willow and Tara (who is really The First, natch') face off.

TARA/FIRST
The suicide thing was too far, huh?
Huh. You seemed so ripe.

WILLOW
Tell me who you are.

TARA/FIRST
I stand by my opinion, you know. The
world would be better off if you took
a razor blade to your wrists-

WILLOW
Stop-

TARA/FIRST
You know to cut long, right? Up the
arm. I can see it now, candle
light... The Indigo Girls playing.
A picture of your dead girlfriend on
your bloody lap-

WILLOW
Stop. Stop using Tara this way-

TARA/FIRST
(mocking)
Ohhh! You left a big hole! It hurts
so much!

Now Tara/First moves in on Willow, seething with malevolence.

TARA/FIRST (cont'd)
You don't know hurt. This last year,
it's going to seem like cake after
what I put you and your friends
through. I'm not a big fan of easy
death... Fact is, the whole "good
and evil, balancing the scales"
thing? I'm over it. I'm done with
the mortal coil. But, believe me,
I'm going for a big finish.

Willow is chilled to the bone.

WILLOW
From beneath you it devours.

TARA/FIRST
Not it. Me.

With that, Tara/First smiles... And her smile stretches wider and wider until it becomes grotesque, like a macabre horror mask (CGI). The smile engulfs the entire face as the rest of TARA'S BODY seems to get sucked in by it. In an instant - The First is gone.

Off Willow, shaking and terrified.



Well damn, that would have been awesome.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
^ I head Tara's actress didn't want to do that scene because it would be too horrible, but might as well be an excuse to cover up the fact that she wasn't available. Pretty sure the fans would flay her if it had come across as "nah sorry don't have time for that".

I think that scene would be really good and horrible and I would have loved to see it. Thanks for posting it, I've never read it before.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Yeah, that woulda been absolutely gut-wrenching to watch. Which would have made it fit right in, naturally.
 

Lex

Administrator
Every time I watch the show I end up doing the good old google interview searches to find out what's been said about each actor leaving etc, and from what I can tell she was supposed to come back for quite a few episodes in season 7 but there was "a breakdown in talks between her agent and Fox" (although it wasn't airing on Fox on Season 7 they were still the production company).

She said she thought the way Tara died was horrible (it was) though she defended the decision to kill off the character, but she wasn't happy about Tara "being bad" either. It's possible at the time she didn't realise what The First was/ could do, since it really would have added to that scene.

I feel fairly strongly that they should have brought Tara back in some way, if only because I can't stand Kennedy. That felt forced. But no major character death was as dramatic as Cordelia's (behind the scenes I mean, that just pisses me off every time I think about it).
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I remember reading that Whedon fully planned to have Tara back alive from the moment he killed her off. When things didn't work out with Amber Benson coming back, he decided that if who he saw as Willow's true love couldn't be back, he was just going to give her someone really hot and aggressive to have fun with -- thus, Kennedy.

What's the behind-the-scenes story with Cordy?
 

Lex

Administrator
I mentioned in a previous post a script somewhere about an early season seven episode where Buffy was granted one no-strings wish from a higher power - the episode would have had her agonise about what to wish for through most of it and at the end Willow asks her at the door what she ended up wishing for then Buffy stepping aside to reveal Tara, fully alive. Not sure if fanfic or real, but I remember it seeming pretty legit from what I've seen of Joss's comments and wherever I read it originally. I'm watching season 6 now so no doubt I'll go on a Google binge following "Seeing Red" as I usually do and happen across the thing again, at which point I'll post it here :D

Regarding Cordelia/Charisma:

Her pregnancy was unplanned hence the complete character assassination storyline that occurred during season 4 of Angel.

Following that they didn't ask her back for Season 5, but didn't tell her they were/ weren't asking her back. She very publicly said prior to Season 5 that she was looking forward to returning to filming. The showrunners basically just didn't tell her she wasn't coming back. It wasn't until filming of Season 5 resumed that she realised the character wasn't going to be in it anymore. And we're talking about a main character here - the only remaining original besides Angel.

The thing with all of Joss's characters is, when he's planning to kill off a character he tells the actor (well, actress... now that I think about it there were never any major male character deaths) usually a whole year in advance. Kristine Sutherland was told about the death of Buffy's mother during the filming of Season 4, and Amber Benson was told about Tara's death during the filming of Season 5 (bad things happen to Tara on the 19th episode of every season she's in, funny little bit of trivia for you :D), so they knew it was coming.

Charisma simply wasn't called to be told she wasn't coming back, and was left to wonder what was happening (and she was finished with her maternity leave before filming). She's since said she originally told them she wouldn't come back if they were going to kill her character but in the end decided it was such an amazing episode and that she owed it to the character and the fans to complete Cordelia's storyline, even though she wasn't obligated through a contract or anything.

I don't know where the actual decision to remove her from the show came from, but from what I can tell she was David Greenwalt's character (co-creator with Joss) and he stopped being a showrunner at the end of Season 3. From what I've read, David Greenwalt had to fight for her to be brought to Angel in the first place, so this seems to fit with the abomination of a storyline she has in Season 4 as well as her eventual removal from the show. And there was no bad blood between Charisma and anyone behind the scenes as far as I can tell, everything I've read points to her being really nice and friendly with everyone.

The biggest dickery comes from the fact that she made it known she didn't want to come back if they were going to kill Cordelia. It was only after Charisma had agreed to film the episode that she was told they were killing her off. The fact that they essentially fired her without telling her combined with tricking her into returning to filming really sours the whole of Season 5 for me. It's my least watched season of either show, even though it has some of the best Angel episodes there are.

I've read a bajillion interviews that all say these things but ten year old links are a bitch to find and most of them are sadly (and unsurprisingly) dead. Here's a snippet from a TV Guide interview back in 2003 shortly after they started filming Angel Season 5:

Charisma Carpenter, who won't be returning as a regular cast member on The WB's Angel, spoke for the first time about her abrupt departure in an interview with the Boston Herald and said she was as shocked as anyone. "I was not prepared," Carpenter told the newspaper. "I don't think you're ever prepared for that kind of situation."

Carpenter played the acid-tongued Cordelia Chase for three years on Buffy the Vampire Slayer before moving over to The WB's spinoff series. "Seven years, that's a long time," she said. "I started that show. To not be finishing it is a pretty big deal for me. They went back to work on July 24. ... On that day I thought, 'Oh, today is officially my first day of unemployment.'"

Last spring, Carpenter returned to Angel just 10 days after giving birth to her son, Donovan, and spent two long days on the set, wrapping up the season, the newspaper reported. She said she is absolutely willing to return to the series to provide closure to her character's story arc and bring Cordy out of the coma in which she remained during last season's finale. "I think it would be incomplete if it wasn't addressed but I don't know what's being planned," she said. "I haven't heard anything. As we speak today, there are no plans for me to come back."

And here Charisma is explaining about what happened before she came back to film "You're Welcome". Go to 2:45 in the video.



So yeah, I kind of hold that whole thing against the show now, it almost ruins it for me. We can never really know the full story, but Cordelia went from a character I hated early on to one of my most loved, and although You're Welcome is the saddest episode in the entire Buffyverse for me, I can barely watch it because the behind the scenes stuff make it so depressing for me personally. The show was really REALLY missing something without her, and the realisation after watching it through that the last time you see the "real" Cordelia is at the end of Season 3 is just... pretty heartbreaking IMO.

EDIT: OH I totally forgot, to add a bit of salt to the wound, in "You're Welcome" it was originally supposed to be Buffy that came back to set Angel back on the right path. When Sarah Michelle Gellar was unavailable for filming, they changed the script to include Cordelia.

EDIT 2: I also have serious issues with both Tara and Cordelia's deaths with respect to the character's lack of a reaction. Tara's is almost understandable because of what happens to Willow immediately after it, but Cordelia's is just shocking to me. It's revealed she's actually dead at the very end of the episode, and the episode immediately after just ignores it completely. You don't see any character reacting to the news, she doesn't get a funeral, no reminscing - nothing. I mean seriously, think about her importance to the group, and none of them even react? At all!? This is in complete constrast to Fred who gets about 3 full episodes of mourning. I love Fred but Cordelia deserved better.
 
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Lex

Administrator
Man, the sex scene with Buffy and Spike at the end of "Smashed" is so dirty. They're fully clothed, but it feels so shocking to watch somehow.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
^ Have you seen the original version (before it was cut) from the Dailies? It's a lot naughtier actually :desu: I hate how the network didn't let that through. Women can't do suggestive movements on top of a man, noooo. Only men on top of women can do that.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
Speaking of Cordelia. What was up with that outfit when she revealed her pregnancy? :lol:

---

"That's me favorite shirt!

THAT'S ME ONLY SHIRT!" - Kendra Young

Random funny bit I suddenly remembered. :wackymonster:
 

Fangu

Great Old One
Speaking of shirts...

"Does this sweater make me look fat?"
"No, the fact that you're fat makes you look fat. That sweater just makes you look purple."
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Man, the sex scene with Buffy and Spike at the end of "Smashed" is so dirty. They're fully clothed, but it feels so shocking to watch somehow.

I remember watching that ep with some girls I knew from high school, and the look on their faces when I pointed out that sound they heard was Spike's fly unzipping. That one little detail somehow pushed it right past "TV sex scene" into "this is pretty nearly porn" :awesome:
 
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