Buffyverse Discussion (Spoilers)

Lex

Administrator
It really does though, it's just explicit even though they have their clothes on 0_0. It's a good scene though, I'm not complaining about it :monster:

I am now on Season 7. I forgot how much I loved the Belljoxa's eye episode:

"The eye sees not the future. Only the truth of the now and before."

"Yes, we've all got that - it's called MEMORY. Can you help us out with something a little more demon-ey!?"

<3

Watched End of Days last night so I'll probably watch Chosen tonight then go through Angel :monster:
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
II forgot how much I loved the Belljoxa's eye episode

tumblr_mmnou6BNO31r2ds3bo3_r1_250.gif
 

Lex

Administrator
Omg and I technically watched it today (at like 4am this morning). Special times <3

I didn't know it was originally planned to be a 2 hour event. I wonder if they've still got enough footage lying about somewhere to put it all back together, that would be nice to see.

I thought Chosen was great though, I've always loved it. Pretty damn epic.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
I still remember watching it on tv about ten years ago.

Good times. It was exciting and emotional enough to not make you care too much about some of the last minute ass pulls they had employed imo.
 

Lex

Administrator
Like Anya, Xander and Dawn somehow destroying the uber-vamps in single slashes? lol, that was one of the definite what-the-fuckery moments.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
It's been several years since I watched "Chosen." Did Dawn or Xander actually take down any Turok-Han with weapons or just when Dawn threw open that skylight? I thought that was plausible enough, though they did burn up fast. I guess I just figured that with how powerful they had been up to that point, it was okay to give them a greater weakness to sunlight.
 

Lex

Administrator
Anya (who is human again at this point) slices about 3 or 4 of them in half in a matter of seconds. Joss himself admits it's a continuity error but he was more focused on the action than anything else at that point. I can't really complain about it. Dawn kills at least one with a sword. I'd need to watch it again to be absolutely sure.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I can also give Anya a pass just because she's so old and has probably handled swords plenty if she felt like it. No matter how goofy she looks doing it. :monster:

But, yeah, I have read that Joss admitted that they go down a lot easier in that final episode than one would expect. I can let it slide, what with everything else that's going on and the greater significance of resolving the story.

If nothing else, they were all really motivated at that point anyway. Achievement Unlocked: Limit Break. :monster:.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I justified it to myself with the rationalization that the first Ubervamp that came through was the absolute strongest of the bunch, with the next few Buffy killed with the Scythe being somewhat weaker, and the main force being to the first one what some random vamp that just rose is compared to Spike or Angelus (or even The Master) :awesome: But yeah it really would fall flat if the episode hadn't been so awesome otherwise.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
What I really like about that episode is the legacy theme. The fighting is fine enough, but it was always about paying it forward to me. Ugh I forgot to put that scene on my 'makes me cry' list. It's really epic when Buffy reveals what she's using the scythe for. (Though I couldn't help thinking 'most of those girls are gonna find themselves pretty unemployed lol' (cus Buffy was 1 and now there are 1000))
 

Lex

Administrator
I am now reading the comics.

Not as bad as I thought they'd be. I'm on "Retreat, Part 3". They handled Buffy having sex with a girl better than I originally thought they would. There have been a few continuity errors for me though, a glaring recent one was Warren and Andrew having a discussion about the way Warren was when the First convinced Andrew to kill Jonathan. That really annoyed me. Unless it turns out it's actually the First in control here it makes no sense, and there have been a few things like that.
 

Lex

Administrator
So, anyone know where I can illegally download legally acquire blah blah bleugh the Season 9 issues so far? I might just wait until they're finished mind you, some glorious person always creates a big fat torrent legal portal where I can pay money for stuff and stuff.

So anyway, that was interesting ("Season" 8). Some of it I liked, some of it I didn't. Spoilers for the comics obviously follow.

-This is going to sound absolutely crazy, but I thought the bit about Buffy and Angel becoming the creators of a new universe - while obviously batshit crazy - was kind of cool. Fucked up and not that well explained, but cool. Plot holes everywhere galore, but cool. Like what was stopping them from pulling everyone else into it and creating the perfect world?

-Space sex is visual.

-Not too happy they've tied Fray in, they should have just declared it alt universe or something.

-WILLOW ACHIEVED WHITE HAIR IN CHOSEN WHY HAVEN'T I SEEN IT AGAIN. Also wow, shocker at the end. She was only fooling herself with Kennedy and still can't let go of Tara? HOORAY BRING TARA BACK!

-Everyone hates Buffy. I have a feeling Season 9 is going to be Buffyverse's Order of the Phoenix.

-Still not entirely clear on how Angel fits into the picture here, Tres, care to explain? I know there's an Angel series - I take it it ties in? I know Illyria shows up in Buffy season 9 and not the companion "Angel and Faith" series so I'm assuming there'll be crossover there, but I thought the rights were with different companies or something? Confused. Like does the Angel continuation set up the whole Twilight thing?

-Tell me Amy's dead, I hate that bitch.

-Giles died. Can't believe it. Upon inflection, am surprised it didn't happen when the show was on TV. Kind of a long time coming. Nice touch with leaving Buffy the "Vampyr" book. Nice touch with leaving everything else to Faith.

-Xander/Dawn meeeeeeeeeeeeeeh. I didn't react that badly to it because from this thread I knew it was coming, but it wasn't exactly set up well IMO.

-No mention whatsoever of Anya. I know she died but every other dead fucker popped up for at least a panel, so why not her?

-The amount of times those bastards have all popped in and out of different dimensions and no Cordelia rearing her higher powerness? I know she appears in the Angel continuation but... oh damn I'm just going to have to read that too aren't I?

-LOL, the master.

Characters: They've nailed some of them. Buffy seems a bit too different. Willow is as awesome as she's always been. Faith is - IMO - the most accurately "developed" from her TV show counterpart. She really shines. Xander's not bad either. Neither is Giles. Or Dawn I suppose, but there's close to zero in character development for her. Don't give a crap about the rest tbh.
 

Lex

Administrator
Now watching Angel season 5. About to go through severe upsetness since "You're Welcome" is on and 3 episodes later I have to deal with "A Hole in the World".

You're Welcome was a mistake Joss, one day I'll get you back for it.
 

Lex

Administrator
I just don't buy all the crap that they'd taken Cordelia as far as they could, season 5 just lacked something crazy without her. I find it near impossible to watch ;-;
 

Lex

Administrator
Dirty tricks for dirty people

like gypsies *spits*

we shall speak of them no more!
 

Lex

Administrator
From the 4:00 mark onwards in this video Charisma explains again her feelings on the season 4 storyline and coming back for "You're Welcome" in Season 5. Interestingly, Julie Benz is there and chimes in with a "I didn't agree with it" when Charisma talks about not getting the whole Connor storyline:



I like many struggle to see faults with Joss Whedon because I am obsessed with anything he's ever put out there. But if there is one shining thing that makes me slightly dislike him, it's the whole debacle with Charisma/ the treatment of Cordelia through seasons 4 and 5.

I can't call it bittersweet, I can't call it "dark" or "really dark", to me it's genuinely just painful. It's something I'll be pissed off about every time I think about Angel as a show. Being that I watched Buffy through at least twice before I even managed to watch Angel for the first time, I hated Cordelia. After watching Angel I liked her. After watching both numerous times I'm now officially calling it - she's my favourite character in the Buffyverse. Season 5 just feels like a shell without her, I've just watched it and while the episodes are well written, it doesn't feel right.

Buffy kept characters around long after they were relevant - the problem with Cordelia for me was that she never really stopped being relevant. They could have explored her half demon powers, her ability as a fighter, her evolution as a character after all the crap in Season 4. I feel like her character was butchered simply because her and Joss had a spat.

In my head she came back and never died. I don't care if she becomes a legitimate higher power in the comics, even there she only gets two issues and then she's gone again. Grrrrrrr. I mean Joss does dark all the time, killing Tara, the majority of season 6 of Buffy is a hard pill to swallow, but it's not to this extent. I kinda want to watch Angel again then just pretend it ends when she ascends at the end of Season 3 or she just stays in a coma at the end of season 4.

Yes, I'm having nerd rage. It happens every time I watch Season 5 of Angel. This is probably why I end up not watching Season 5 of Angel.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
It is epic bullshit. Like, the worst ever in TV history -- and, as a principle, I hate any time the writing of a show is affected by cast availability or off-camera politics.

By the way, did she and Joss really have a spat? From your previous explanation of things, I thought you were saying it was executive meddling and that the network or somebody over Joss ordered her gone because they were pissed about her pregnancy.
 

Lex

Administrator
It is epic bullshit. Like, the worst ever in TV history -- and, as a principle, I hate any time the writing of a show is affected by cast availability or off-camera politics.

By the way, did she and Joss really have a spat? From your previous explanation of things, I thought you were saying it was executive meddling and that the network or somebody over Joss ordered her gone because they were pissed about her pregnancy.

It was executive meddling that stopped Amber Benson returning as the first - something to do with a breakdown in talks between her agent and the production company (Fox) - not Charisma. I might have thought that before watching this video though.

It wasn't that someone ordered her gone, simply that no one told her what was happening with the character. From 4:00 in the video in my previous post, she seems to be really open and honest about it:

"What happened was... my relationship with Joss became strained when... (we all go through our stuff) and I was going through my stuff and then I became pregnant... and I guess Joss had a different way of seeing the season go at the end of the 4th season."

So basically her becoming pregnant meddled with Joss's creative plans for Season 4 - I think I read somewhere that she was still to become a villain (possessed) but it wouldn't have involved a pregnancy arc. There was to be a big showdown between her and Angel in the final epiosde, fitting with her having grown more powerful - not sure if the Jasmine possession would still have been a thing. The pregnancy was what they had to write in. That's all just speculation of course.

I had read her and Joss had a spat but didn't mention it before because I didn't know how true it was, but she definitely confirms it in that video.

She goes on to talk about how "I think Joss was really really... mad. He was really mad at me. And I say that in a loving way" - about how it was a complicated dynamic between her and Joss having worked with each other for such a huge length of time. From that I got, there were obviously certain expectations from her with regards to loyalty to the show and narrative (don't get fat or pregnant at the wrong times, etc) and I'm assuming she kind of broke the unwritten rule and said "fuck it", because she also talks about having to also live your life outside of work. She was off for a few episodes during season 3 when she got married and went on her honeymoon (in the show they say she's on vacation with Groo) - but they creatively tied that in with Wesley kidnapping Connor - if Cordelia had been there this probably wouldn't have happened, he might have discussed his fears with her.

Another rumour is that she left it until the last possible moment to tell them she was pregnant, which seems to fit with all of this.

So now I'm really pissed off with Joss Whedon :monster:

I can understand his and her points of view, but Joss took his retribution by giving her an abomination of a storyline in Season 4 and writing her out in season 5. I don't believe for a second they couldn't find a way to write around her pregnancy, shows do it all the time. This is combined with the fact that she was the other showrunner's character in the first place (David Greenwalt) and he left the show at the end of Season 3.

There are aspects of Season 4 that make up for that rotten storyline (the constant apocalypse-ness, Angelus, Faith, Willow... and sometimes evil Cordelia is badass) but when she doesn't actually wake up from her coma and you realise you don't see real, alive Cordelia at all after the season 3 finale... yeah, to me there just isn't a payoff. I kinda wish they'd just left her in a coma. Killing her in season 5 after one shiny episode is just too painful to me.

The main point is: if Joss hadn't had a bitchfit and she'd stayed in the show for Season 5, we wouldn't be having this conversation and wouldn't know or care about what happened behind the scenes, which says that his treatment of her character is a colossal mistake. I'm willing to pretend parts of canon aren't actually canon, because the show just wasn't right without Cordelia.

CORDY POWER!!!
 

Fangu

Great Old One
I enjoyed reading that, Lex. I can see that if she waited until the last minute to share the news about her pregnancy and lots of administrative work had to be redone and rescheduled because of it, her bawses would be mad about it. There are a lot of women working in LA who never have children because actresses are willing to make that sacrifice for a good job, so I can see why they felt she was taking liberties. IMO she wasn't even that old when she got pregnant. Anyway when the kid was born they could have kept going with Cordy in Season 5. It was strange not having her there although I guess it gave more room for Fred which was a big plus
 

Lex

Administrator
While I can't argue that more Fred is a bad thing because I love her so much, the addition of Spike, Eve and Harmony feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth. I mean, Harmony. Don't get me wrong, I kind of liked her role in Season 5, but Eve can go and fuck herself. And while we're on the subject of Eve, WHY WASN'T SHE LILAH!?

Seriously struggling to find a reason she didn't fulfill that role, she was one of the best characters on the whole show. Ah Lilah <3, another reason I can almost stomach Season 4. I mean Wesley kind of does Eve's job in the comics following his death. Maybe they couldn't get Stephanie Romanov to return or something.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
Oh shit Eve, I completely forgot out Eve. Guess she was that interesting, huh :wacky:

I totally love Harmony so I was happy to see Harmony again. Spike, not so much. He died, they should have left him dead.
 
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