Shinra executing Barret/Tifa=Justified? (kinda)

I never really thought about it before, but when Shinra captured the FFVII team (minus Cloud) in the Northern Crater, is it really all that unusual that they decided to put Barret and Tifa to death? While the stated and immediate reasoning was to provide a scapegoat for the Meteor crisis, keep in mind though they're also known terrorists responsible for the deaths of hundreds of individuals in Midgar (a fact that Barret later fesses up to, so I'm not holding it against their character myself. Just speaking objectively here), and Shinra and co know exactly who they are and what they've done.

While the entire team has been labeled terrorists and has been actively working against Shinra for some time, Barret and Tifa are the only actual original members of AVALANCHE that were responsible for the deaths of civilians.

Think about it; its never really stated or really implied that Shinra had any plans to harm the rest of the crew (and from what I recall they even put Cid back under their employ), and while I'm not saying that Shinra had any altruistic motives towards the crew (or in general), executing radical terrorists isn't exactly...unusual at all, fictional world or no.

I am not defending capital punishment, but the "B-but why are you executing us????" shock dampens a whole lot when the player actually remembers what Barret and Tifa's actual identities and activities were to Shinra and the public at large.

I always thought that Avalanche was terrorism in a similar way people consider Animal Liberation Front terrorism. Granted the ALF didn't slaughter half the military trying to blow up a power plant.

I think my problem with that is, unless you are in the middle of combat where both parties are shooting at each other, or any similar circumstance that you can't bring in a person without lethal force- no execution is justified without fair trial. They were clearly being detained so it was within their power.

And when you think about it, probably one of the charges against them is the Sector 7 dropping, a charge they are innocent of. They at least have the right to be absolved from that, but they won't be because their judge, jury, and executioner are the the ones that did it.

If you want to think of it technically... is Shinra even the legal government of Midgar? I know they control it, but I thought they had a mayor that was their puppet. They're just a big corporation that happens to be in control of it. Governments, usually, are the only body of power that is legitimately allowed to sentence a citizen to death. It would be like Wallstreet executing people from Guantanamo.

Yeah, I've never really held this point against Rufus even before Advent Children. Fact that he was actually trying to make people feel better rather than doing it because of a malicious reason already made him less of the total bastard he was when he's first introduced, but, yeah, from damn near any perspective, it's justifiable when you keep in mind who AVALANCHE was before Sephiroth came on the scene.

I think my problem with that is, unless you are in the middle of combat where both parties are shooting at each other, or any similar circumstance that you can't bring in a person without lethal force- no execution is justified without fair trial. They were clearly being detained so it was within their power.

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Yes, at its core Shinra is still an antagonistic non-altrustic entity, them not giving Tifa/Barret a trial would, in the real world, constitute an unlawful act. However, in this situation it would be a formality to prove that they did it; it is pretty much irrevocable fact that they were responsible for the crimes they committed. In the real, modern world a trial would be a given, as it should, but in this setting, it was simple as "We got em, now get rid of 'em."

And when you think about it, probably one of the charges against them is the Sector 7 dropping, a charge they are innocent of. They at least have the right to be absolved from that, but they won't be because their judge, jury, and executioner are the the ones that did it.

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To be fair I wasn't referring to that incident. Shinra themselves may pin the blame on them for that, but as an objective observer, the player, no, that's not their fault. However they are still responsible for the bombings and subsequent attacks on their military personnel. In our perspective, they're the protagonists, the heroes fighting Shinra forces every step of the way. However, at the beginning of the game, their battles against the Shinra military are clearly acts of terror.

Eventually, they do become actual, objective heroes, and Shinra's forces become either in the way of saving the fucking world at worst, or unfortunate casualties at best (like the Submarine crew if you decide to be a dick). But from the start of the game to say, meeting Aeris? Yeah you're a bunch of criminals.

If you want to think of it technically... is Shinra even the legal government of Midgar? I know they control it, but I thought they had a mayor that was their puppet. They're just a big corporation that happens to be in control of it. Governments, usually, are the only body of power that is legitimately allowed to sentence a citizen to death. It would be like Wallstreet executing people from Guantanamo.

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Shinra owns everything, yes. The FFVII's concept of what a legal government entity is doesn't exactly translate into our society.

Yeah... to put it in real-word terms from Shin-Ra's pov...

Barret, Tifa and Cloud blow up a power plant in a large metropolitan area that just so happens to be the capital city and the explosion ends up killing a lot of people in the process. Not to long after, they are discovered right before they blow up another power plant in the same city. Then the government is a jerk and blows up large portion of the city in order to kill them all off. Somehow, they survive. The terrorists then carry out a successful raid on the capital building and end up not only rescuing a friend, but also help a high-profile criminal escape. The next time the government run into the terrorists, they're bringing the world's version of WMD to the high-profile criminal that escaped which he promptly arms and fires.

Yeah... Shin-Ra has some very good reasons to execute Barret and Tifa. In a way, if Barret and Tifa weren't trying to fix the world and weren't clearly sorry for what they did, I'd say they got what they deserved.

I agree with Barret and Tifa not being heroes at the start. Their main motivation is hate although at the beginning they claim otherwise. Cloud is arguably bad because he doesn't show care for the fact that the Reactor No.1 bombing resulted in many civilian casualties. The strength of the first bomb was a mistake and so were the casualties, but our protagonists are not redeemed by this fact because we don't see guilt from their side until the end of disc 2 (and then loads of guilt in Case of Tifa and Case of Barret).

I used to think that all this "sin" theming didn't work because the strength of Jessie's bomb was unexpectedly great; that the loss of innocents wasn't cause enough for the protagonists to feel guilty because they never intended to kill civilians. But like I stated in the earlier paragraph, this part of the story can work when you remember how long it takes until Cloud, Tifa and Barret actually show any emotions of guilt.


One small detail I want to pick apart though, which is slightly off-topic...

DAT BOY FROG said:

While the stated and immediate reasoning was to provide a scapegoat for the Meteor crisis, keep in mind though they're also known terrorists responsible for the deaths of hundreds of individuals in Midgar

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It is debatable just how "known" Cloud, Barret & Tifa are. The top Shinra employees certainly know their faces and that they are part of AVALANCHE, but what of the lower employees and the civilians around the world? Did anyone in Midgar watch the execution broadcast from Junon and think
"Those are the people that blew up the reactor and caused my brother/sister/friend/goldfish to die!"

In the in-game script, Tifa and Barret are never pointed out as member of AVALANCHE whilst in Junon to be executed. The story only focuses on scapegoating these two as the cause for the Meteor crisis. You would expect Rufus to tell the people that not only did they finally catch the two main members of AVALANCHE but *also* the people who "caused" the crisis. Yet this is not the case and honestly I prefer it this way.

By creating a suspense of disbelief that Cloud, Tifa and Barret are not globally known for having been AVALANCHE, we understand just how it is possible for this crew to later wander the world without anyone attempting to take revenge on them for somebody they lost in Midgar.

It is the true that this one Shinra grunt in the Underwater Reactor recognizes Cloud. His face has some recognition, but the context of it and the level of fame is still debatable.



The crew's later fame for the Jenova War is another topic, so I'll just state that nothing with that particular fame tells us that the world know of Cloud, Barret and Tifa having been part of AVALANCHE. If anyone knows, it would have to be the receptionist from Shinra HQ when they stormed the place to rescue Aerith. Then again, the canon event might have been that they took the stairs.

At the harbor in Costa del Sol when you first arrive, there's a sailor who will recognize Cloud and co. as "those AVALANCHE guys."

Hawkeye said:

At the harbor in Costa del Sol when you first arrive, there's a sailor who will recognize Cloud and co. as "those AVALANCHE guys."

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This is true. I had forgotten.

“Damn.
I'm soaking wet down to my underwear.”
“Oops! You must be those AVALANCHE guys!”
“Quick! Let's get outta here!
Heidegger's in charge of the transport ship.”
“That's tough for both of us.”

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Notes: The line is only available right after the scene between Rufus and Heidegger. One could try and argue that the sailor listened on to this conversation and figured out that AVALANCHE was on the ship, but that's difficult because Rufus doesn't actually say "AVALANCHE".

Rufus
“I heard Sephiroth was on board.”

Heidegger
“…Yes.”

Rufus
“And it seems Cloud
and the others were on board, too.”

Rufus
“They all slipped through…
You messed up big this time, Heidegger.”

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Either way, I think the story doesn't do a good job with establishing Cloud and company's level of fame. There *should* be Wanted posters everywhere, but nothing like this is ever spoken of and the team visit towns very casually. I'm not surprised by this though. It was just never considered an important part of the story to show how recognizable the AVALANCHE members are.

Shademp said:

I agree with Barret and Tifa not being heroes at the start. Their main motivation is hate although at the beginning they claim otherwise. Cloud is arguably bad because he doesn't show care for the fact that the Reactor No.1 bombing resulted in many civilian casualties. The strength of the first bomb was a mistake and so were the casualties, but our protagonists are not redeemed by this fact because we don't see guilt from their side until the end of disc 2 (and then loads of guilt in Case of Tifa and Case of Barret).

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Tifa shows guilt as soon as the plate drops, even sooner in Jessie's case. And their motivation maybe hate, but they are still channeling it through a pursuit to save the Planet. Which it needed. Barring the magical global off-switch on Mako Reactors that the Lifestream ultimately effected, those Mako Reactors did need to be destroyed if anyone was gonna survive.

I think their guilt stems mostly from their initially justifying the civilian deaths to themselves with the cause of saving the planet even though that cause had only ever been an excuse for them to exact their hatred. Had they really been only motivated by saving the planet, I feel like their guilt would have been different -- maybe not lessened, but not so much mired in a silent shame and feeling that they should or would be punished.

It's also possible Shinra wanted Avalanche to get as little exposure as possible. Obviously they blamed things on Avalanche, but Shinra likes to keep their failings on the down low - especially since one of the criminals is apparently a former SOLDIER.

This comment from a woman in Kalm on Disc 3 is interesting:

"Dear, can you believe it!? They say that Shinra's gone under!!
This world is coming to an end all because those terrorists called AVALANCHE stuck their noses in the wrong place!"

She seems to blame AVALANCHE for the world ending because she blames them for Shin-Ra going under -- not for casting Meteor. So, either Rufus didn't announce that Meteor was caused by AVALANCHE, didn't say that Barret and Tifa were from AVALANCHE or this particular woman just wasn't paying attention.

ForceStealer said:

It's also possible Shinra wanted Avalanche to get as little exposure as possible. Obviously they blamed things on Avalanche, but Shinra likes to keep their failings on the down low - especially since one of the criminals is apparently a former SOLDIER.

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Not to mention that the Shinra are a bunch of assholes, and lots of people know it. You tell them too much about AVALANCHE, AVALANCHE just might start getting bigger again.

I'm sure that the writing in the story was more advanced and deep than I give it credit for, but honestly, sometimes it just sucks balls.

I was heartily disgusted by the behavior of Barret, Tifa and Cloud at first. Yes, I understand their motivations were not strictly hate and greed (at least not Barret and Tifa). They had a high moral ground for facilitating the destruction of Mako Reactors--the very salvation of the planet itself. Their feelings were just, but their actions deplorable. They should have found ways to protect the planet that didn't involve mass execution.

It gave me some comfort that Barret and Tifa show at least a tiny bit of guilt for their actions. They seem to show that they know that their actions aren't entirely noble. As the game goes on they learn to fight for the planet in less destructive ways and thus, I learned to respect them. By the time I get to the execution scene I might have felt it was just cause, but honestly, it had mostly disappeared. You can seek redemption and find it, and I felt the impending executions were less just desserts and more, as the game painfully obviously made clear, scapegoats.

That doesn't absolve them of their guilt entirely, but it made them much more palatable to me. Made them more credible heroes.

I think they were trying the same with Cloud, but, honestly, it was buried under "I hate Sephiroth" and "Who should I bone? Aerith or Tifa?" so much I didn't put much faith in it. Or maybe it's because I hate Cloud, I dunno.

As the game goes on they learn to fight for the planet in less destructive way.

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Did they though? Sephiroth was just something they could fight without the causalities for a while. Don't ean they weren't eventually planning on going back to blowing up reactors.

In the most recent addition to the Compilation, "The Kids Are Alright" (translated by hito), the popular nickname for the presumed-dead Rufus is "the stupid President", which is quite funny, since he was pretty astute about human nature. "People will feel better as long as someone is punished," is a great truth, like most of his observations about humanity and its history. He was trying to prevent mass panic (which would have cost much more than two lives) while at the same time trying to figure out how to stop Meteor. He would probably have put Tifa and Barret to death anyway, but under the circumstances their execution served a constructive purpose. He was being pragmatic; his actions demonstrate his competence as a ruler.

Having the public nickname him "the stupid president" is, I think, a comment on how shallow and judgemental public opinion can be.

Justified is a funny word.

I think Barret and Tifa were justified in seeking vengence against Shinra for destroying their home towns and families, how they went about it? Maybe not so much. They didn't target civillians though, and from what Jessie said the bomb was miscalculated. She didn't intend for it to be quite so big. So I guess one could call that 'collateral damage'

Nothing Shinra have ever done is justified from the outset - its a company that operates through greed. So fuck 'em

Trying to blame meteor on Avalanche is ridiculous. They were never going to admit that it was a rogue super soldier that they created that caused it though we're they?

Trying to blame meteor on Avalanche is ridiculous

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Yes, but it is effective. Blaming the end of the world on known terrorists is probably what most in power would do. Blaming the apocalypse on yourself is not the smart thing to do for someone in power if they want to stay in power, altruistic or not.

Shinra is full of stupid, stupid ideas but the reason why they're so successful is that some of them are damn good ones.

DAT BOY FROG said:

Yes, but it is effective. Blaming the end of the world on known terrorists is probably what most in power would do. Blaming the apocalypse on yourself is not the smart thing to do for someone in power if they want to stay in power, altruistic or not.

Shinra is full of stupid, stupid ideas but the reason why they're so successful is that some of them are damn good ones.

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Yeah, what I'm trying to say is that while executing Barret and Tifa was obviously bad for Barret and Tifa personally, and not exactly a nice thing to do, it was not only a smart move for ShinRa (deflect the blame) but also a smart move in terms of keeping the people calm and safe while Rufus and his team tried to figure out how to stop meteor. After all, up to this point Cloud and his crew haven't come off as entirely trustworthy or competent. They were in the Shinra building when Jenova/Sephiroth 'escaped' and killed the President, and they tracked down and retrieved the Black Materia only to hand it to Sephiroth. Rufus can and does get blamed for everything his father and ShinRa did wrong, but it's worth remembering he's only been President for a few weeks at most, and before that he didn't actually have a lot of input into the running of the company. From the moment he inherited, his job has been one big escalating task of damage control.

LicoriceAllsorts said:

Yeah, what I'm trying to say is that while executing Barret and Tifa was obviously bad for Barret and Tifa personally, and not exactly a nice thing to do, it was not only a smart move for ShinRa (deflect the blame) but also a smart move in terms of keeping the people calm and safe while Rufus and his team tried to figure out how to stop meteor. After all, up to this point Cloud and his crew haven't come off as entirely trustworthy or competent. They were in the Shinra building when Jenova/Sephiroth 'escaped' and killed the President, and they tracked down and retrieved the Black Materia only to hand it to Sephiroth. Rufus can and does get blamed for everything his father and ShinRa did wrong, but it's worth remembering he's only been President for a few weeks at most, and before that he didn't actually have a lot of input into the running of the company. From the moment he inherited, his job has been one big escalating task of damage control.

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Remember who actually created Sephiroth, the current Cloud, all the Black Capes, moved Jenova to the Shinra building for the express purpose of leading the Sephiroth Clones there and was aware of the Weapon threat this entire time? Rufus rehired him after their trip to the Northern Crater.

Of course he re-hired him. Hojo had information which was invaluable if they were to deal effectively with the threats that faced them. What's surprising is that he didn't (as far as we know) get the Turks to interrogate Hojo. Maybe he knew it would be pointless. Hojo probably has a very high pain threshold.

LicoriceAllsorts said:

Of course he re-hired him. Hojo had information which was invaluable if they were to deal effectively with the threats that faced them. What's surprising is that he didn't (as far as we know) get the Turks to interrogate Hojo. Maybe he knew it would be pointless. Hojo probably has a very high pain threshold.

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Like what? How to take down the Weapons? No, he had no info concerning that. How to deal with Meteor? No he wasn't even involved with the whole Black Materia thing. How to defeat Sephiroth? Again, no. Hojo would not know how to do that.

And you say AVALANCHE is not truthworthy considering the circumstances they were found in. Hojo is trusted wholly as a member of the Director's board once more despite being known beng responsible for nearly all of it, and sure as hell showing less enthusiasm in trying to put an end to Sephiroth then AVALANCHE does.

Nor can I say how you come to the concuion that Rufus has little reason to consider AVALANCHE competent. Compared to who? Heidegger who is still serving as Rufus' righthand man through all of this? The Turks that are down to three, one a complete rookie. The Shinra military that have been defeated by AVALANCHE at every turn, including SOLDIER? It's not like all of this is shown to have escaped Rufus' notice.

Bringing Hojo back on board at least until Sephiroth was dealt with is the only thing that would have made sense. Even if his information ultimately didn't prove constructive, no one knew more about Sephiroth and Jenova.

I think the rest of the team escaped, rather than being spared by Shinra. Think about it. Red and Vincent would be wanted back by Hojo.

Yuffie shows up during the escape... in disguise. She wouldn't need to do that if Shinra had just let her go.

It's highly unlikely Cid was just let back to work, he'd just been fraternising with AVALANCHE. Maybe Reeve pulled strings.

Tifa can't escape, being unconscious, and Barret's not going to leave her behind. They're just the last two standing.

Regarding justification...you could say that about virtually any protagonist in this kind of game. SeeD tried to assassinate Galbadia's head of state twice.

Zidane abducted a princess, and killed the agents sent to retrieve her.

Ashe et al are rebelling against their lawful government.

Lightning et al are slaughtering dozens of government personnel.

Minato Arisato said:

Like what? How to take down the Weapons? No, he had no info concerning that.

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We can't be sure he had no info on that. All we know is that we, the player, were not told about all the info that Hojo did have. He certainly knew more about Weapon than anyone else in Rufus' entourage:

(A huge, emerald green eye winks out from the wall of the cave.)

Hojo
"Weapon..."
"Then it really does exist... I didn't believe in it."

Rufus
"What does this mean?"

(Hojo turns to face him)

Hojo
"...Weapon. Monsters created by the Planet."
"It appears when the Planet is in danger, reducing everything to
nothingness."
"That's what was stated in Professor Gast's report."

Rufus
"I never saw that report... Where is it?"

(Hojo searches a bit and holds up something in his hand.)

Hojo
"Here, right here."

(The eye winks again.)

Rufus
"You keep a lot of things to yourself."

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When Hojo comes with Rufus to the Northern Crater, he could just as easily be Rufus' prisoner as Rufus' employee.

How to deal with Meteor? No he wasn't even involved with the whole Black Materia thing. How to defeat Sephiroth? Again, no. Hojo would not know how to do that.

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But Rufus would not know that Hojo did not know this. All Rufus knows is that Hoo masterminded the program that created both Sephiroth and Cloud. Like Tres said, Hojo knows more than anyone else. That alone makes him uniquely valuable, even if he doesn't know - or won't tell - everything.

And you say AVALANCHE is not truthworthy considering the circumstances they were found in. Hojo is trusted wholly as a member of the Director's board once more despite being known beng responsible for nearly all of it, and sure as hell showing less enthusiasm in trying to put an end to Sephiroth then AVALANCHE does.

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Like I said, assuming that Hojo is Rufus's employee rather than his prisoner is jumping to conclusions. After the Northern Crater we don't see Hojo again until after Rufus is 'dead' and ShinRa is in chaos. Just because Rufus brought him to the crater does not mean that Rufus trusts him, it only means that he has knowledge Rufus needs.

It's a mistake to think that Rufus knows what the player knows, or that his priorities are our priorities. Rufus has not seen much 'enthusiasm for putting an end to Sephiroth' from AVALANCHE. What he has seen is their failure on numerous occasions to conclusively defeat Sephiroth, including their inability to prevent him from killing someone who was uniquely valuable to ShinRa, while on at least three occasions he has either witnessed Cloud being controlled by Sephiroth or would have told about it by Reeve.

Nor can I say how you come to the concuion that Rufus has little reason to consider AVALANCHE competent. Compared to who? Heidegger who is still serving as Rufus' righthand man through all of this? The Turks that are down to three, one a complete rookie. The Shinra military that have been defeated by AVALANCHE at every turn, including SOLDIER? It's not like all of this is shown to have escaped Rufus' notice.

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AVALANCHE may have proved themselves no less competent than the Turks and the Shinra military, but they have not, at this juncture in the game, proved that they are able - or even willing - to defeat Sephiroth. And in fact when they lose Cloud AVALANCHE also lose any interest in tackling Sephiroth; IIRC they spend their time under Cid's leadership flying around in the Highwind trying to thwart ShinRa's attempts to do something about Meteor. As far as Rufus is concerned, Cloud is dead, gone, and AVALANCHE has neither the interest nor the ability to tackle the threat facing the planet.

Even after Cloud recovers from his mako poisoning, he and his crew could easily appear, to an outside observer, to have forgotten all about Sephiroth; they seem more interested in stealing commandeering ShinRa stuff (like the submarine, or the equipment on the Gelnika, which ShinRa was planning to use against Sephiroth) and stopping ShinRa from getting their hands on the Huge Materia. In fact, if you didn't know better, you could be forgiven for thinking AVALANCHE was on Sephiroth's side.

Of course Reeve could try to convince Rufus otherwise, but I don't think anyone in ShinRa trusts Reeve much by this point.