Shinra executing Barret/Tifa=Justified? (kinda)

[Obsidian Fire]

Even after Cloud recovers from his mako poisoning, he and his crew could easily appear, to an outside observer, to have forgotten all about Sephiroth; they seem more interested in stealing commandeering ShinRa stuff (like the submarine, or the equipment on the Gelnika, which ShinRa was planning to use against Sephiroth) and stopping ShinRa from getting their hands on the Huge Materia.

And breeding and racing Chocobos and hunting around the continents for rare items/materia and buying a Villa in Costa Del Sol. Those lazy punks...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Lol. And killing time at Gold Saucer's battle arena... Plus maybe a little snowboarding.... Like, there's no hurry or anything.

 

[Roger]

We can't be sure he had no info on that. All we know is that we, the player, were not told about all the info that Hojo did have. He certainly knew more about Weapon than anyone else in Rufus' entourage:

When Hojo comes with Rufus to the Northern Crater, he could just as easily be Rufus' prisoner as Rufus' employee.

I'm not talking about at the Northern Crater. We're talking about afterwards. Tifa was out for a week. During that week Rufus had all the time in the world to extract whatever info Hojo was willing to divulge. We don't see Hojo until Rufus dies but we are far from told that he escaped imprisonment.

But Rufus would not know that Hojo did not know this. All Rufus knows is that Hoo masterminded the program that created both Sephiroth and Cloud. Like Tres said, Hojo knows more than anyone else. That alone makes him uniquely valuable, even if he doesn't know - or won't tell - everything.

Rufus knew a LOT more then that about Hojo. He knew for example that Hojo knew all along that Sephiroth wasn't an Ancient when Rufus was trekking all over the world following Sephiroth's movements in the hopes it would lead him to the Promised Land. He knew that Hojo had brought Jenova to the Shinra Tower in the hopes that it would lead the Sephiroth clones there. He knew by this time that Hojo knew about Cloud's condition, and the fact that Sephiroth was leading him long before anyone else. He also knew Hojo didn't bother to tell him about the Weapon until their board of Directors was standing right next to it's eye.

These are all things that greatly contributed to the death of Shinra personel, Rufus' father, the endangering of the entire Planet and the repeated endangering of Rufus' own life.

Rufus has not seen much 'enthusiasm for putting an end to Sephiroth' from AVALANCHE. What he has seen is their failure on numerous occasions to conclusively defeat Sephiroth, including their inability to prevent him from killing someone who was uniquely valuable to ShinRa, while on at least three occasions he has either witnessed Cloud being controlled by Sephiroth or would have told about it by Reeve.

AVALANCHE may have proved themselves no less competent than the Turks and the Shinra military, but they have not, at this juncture in the game, proved that they are able - or even willing - to defeat Sephiroth.

Now we are being very selective about what Rufus does and doesn't know. Cait Sith worked as a spy for Shinra early on, but I didn't get the impression they knew Reeve was his controller. Otherwise Scarlet would have had him killed for his open treason by then. Rufus WOULD have some idea that AVALANCHE vanquished the Sephiroth on the boat they were on while he and Heidegger hid in a corner, with all their guards dead. And that at some point AVALANCHE reobtained the Black Materia from Sephiroth before Cloud did his thing again. This is after Sephiroth slaughered the upper level of the Shinra Tower to the man and then vanished, walked through Junon's defenses practically unopposed and the only encounter the Turks had with them lost them their leader.

Rufus had every reason to believe he could use their help at this point, no matter how bleak a picture you believe the malicious Reeve drew of their capacity.

And in fact when they lose Cloud AVALANCHE also lose any interest in tackling Sephiroth; IIRC they spend their time under Cid's leadership flying around in the Highwind trying to thwart ShinRa's attempts to do something about Meteor. As far as Rufus is concerned, Cloud is dead, gone, and AVALANCHE has neither the interest nor the ability to tackle the threat facing the planet.

This was after he tried to kill them, to Rufus' credit after they get away, he doesn't pay much mind to giving them pursuit, he had bigger fish to fry.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Now we are being very selective about what Rufus does and doesn't know. Cait Sith worked as a spy for Shinra early on, but I didn't get the impression they knew Reeve was his controller.

At the least, Rufus and the Turks knew. Rufus knew about Reeve controlling Cait Sith way back in Before Crisis and had a thought even then that it could be useful for spying, while Case of Shin-Ra shows that Tseng knew Reeve was Cait Sith's controller.

Rufus had every reason to believe he could use their help at this point, no matter how bleak a picture you believe the malicious Reeve drew of their capacity.

If he did believe that, though, why execute Tifa and Barret? He would lose two of them and make the others distrustful.

Rufus knew a LOT more then that about Hojo. He knew for example that Hojo knew all along that Sephiroth wasn't an Ancient when Rufus was trekking all over the world following Sephiroth's movements in the hopes it would lead him to the Promised Land. He knew that Hojo had brought Jenova to the Shinra Tower in the hopes that it would lead the Sephiroth clones there. He knew by this time that Hojo knew about Cloud's condition, and the fact that Sephiroth was leading him long before anyone else. He also knew Hojo didn't bother to tell him about the Weapon until their board of Directors was standing right next to it's eye.

These are all things that greatly contributed to the death of Shinra personel, Rufus' father, the endangering of the entire Planet and the repeated endangering of Rufus' own life.

Valid points, but there is one other thing Rufus does know about Hojo and one that he doesn't:

-Hojo is one of the smartest people on the planet, with unique knowledge of their quarry
-Hojo is more interested in seeing the results of his experiments, even above self-preservation

Whether Rufus would have killed Hojo later is not known nor is it really relevant. At the time, he had no reason to believe Hojo lacked self-preservation and that the mad scientist wouldn't do everything in his power to at least prevent worldwide conflagration.

AVALANCHE wouldn't look nearly so useful by comparison.

 

[Roger]

If he did believe that, though, why execute Tifa and Barret? He would lose two of them and make the others distrustful.

That's why I'm arguing this. I don't feel executing them was as brilliant a masterstroke on Rufus' part as it is hyped up to be here.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ahh, okay. I see what you're saying now. I guess I'm more in the "They probably didn't look that useful at this point" crowd. I mean, especially without Cloud, who was something of a liability anyway.

 

[Roger]

Ahh, okay. I see what you're saying now. I guess I'm more in the "They probably didn't look that useful at this point" crowd. I mean, especially without Cloud, who was something of a liability anyway.

Hojo's usefulness aside, they still need a team to fight the Weapons and Sephiroth at some point. And it wouldn't hurt to stay on the world's best pilot's good side either. It'd be dfferent situation if SOLDIER was acknowledged as a fighting force after you leave Midgar but you just get nothing from them.

 

[Octo]

Just looking at the script here:

Scarlet "We will be broadcasting your miserable deaths live on national television." (The large fellow turns to her.) "Scarlet, why a public execution in this day and age?" (Scarlet walks a ways toward the gas chamber) Scarlet "With the chaos resulting from the Meteor reports, we desperately need to rally public support... it's better that we punish somebody, anybody." Tifa "You make me sick..." (Scarlet starts laughing. A cameraman moves forward to film her.) Scarlet "Ha, ha, ha, ha!" "They'll never admit it, but everyone loves this stuff!"

Anyway its not really a very intelligent plan to basically tell the audience that its all a sham, sort of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

 

[Roger]

Yeah, Scarlet turns into a bigger idiot then Heidegger as the story goes on, rather disappointing.

 

[jazzflower92]

Then again the higher ups of Shinra except for Reeve have a big hold on the idiot ball.And have a lack of moral common sense.

 

[Shademp]

Anyway its not really a very intelligent plan to basically tell the audience that its all a sham, sort of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

This is one of probably more than a dozen spots where the game script and scene choreography deserves some change. Scarlet's line about "punishing anybody" and "people love this stuff" should be moved elsewhere, off-camera. Then have Scarlet hold up a false exterior when she is interviewed and filmed, which would make us hate her even more.

 

[Clement Rage]

Do we know that this was a live broadcast? The footage could be edited later.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

One of the reasons I don't think I'd like a remark of FFVII is that with their modern graphics they'd make Scarlet look about 21 years old, whereas I prefer to imagine her as a cross between Sharon Stone and Helen Mirren.

Yes, it's kind of a shame about those lines, because she does come across like an idiot, and she didn't need to be. Tifa deserves a worthier enemy. I guess the most favourab le interpretation we can put on that scene is that Scarlet just does not give a shit.

 

[Shademp]

Do we know that this was a live broadcast? The footage could be edited later.

It is a but unclear. We know that the deaths are to be broadcast live, but we're not sure if the live broadcast has started yet when this scene takes place.

Scarlet
“We will be broadcasting your miserable
deaths live on national television.”

“Scarlet, why a public execution
in this day and age?”

Hang on. There is such a thing as "national" television in FFVII? Just another example of terms from the real world seeping into FFVII when it's not really applicable.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I always figured they just weren't broadcasting yet.

 

[Shademp]

Even if they were not broadcasting at that time, it's still a bit odd for Scarlet (a leading figure of Shinra) to answer a journalist's question so bluntly and without the slightest attempt at propaganda or lies. So I still vote that the scene would be improved by her not saying those lines in that exact context.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

“Scarlet, why a public execution
in this day and age?”

I like the assumption that they live in a civilised modern age. Enlightened, so to speak.

 

[Shademp]

I like the assumption that they live in a civilised modern age. Enlightened, so to speak.

They live in the modern age of assassinations and cover-ups. It's not like they are savages or anything.

 

[ForceStealer]

Even if they were not broadcasting at that time, it's still a bit odd for Scarlet (a leading figure of Shinra) to answer a journalist's question so bluntly and without the slightest attempt at propaganda or lies. So I still vote that the scene would be improved by her not saying those lines in that exact context.

But Shinra owns the newspaper and every other media outlet. They choose what airs and what prints, who cares what she says to a basically-Shinra-employed reporter?

 

[jazzflower92]

Force@ Yeah,since Shinra basically owns the world they can get away with saying anything because they will just censor it and twist it around to suit their needs.And are they defiantly not going to take repsonsiblity for things that basically stems from their actions.

 

[Shademp]

But Shinra owns the newspaper and every other media outlet. They choose what airs and what prints, who cares what she says to a basically-Shinra-employed reporter?

Alright, makes sense enough (under the assumption that the broadcast is not live yet). It is mentioned that Shinra owns the newspapers.

Aeris
“Shinra, Inc. owns the newspapers,
so you can't rely on that.”

Though from that perspective, I'd still like something changed or added. If Scarlet's lines remain the same and the context is that the broadcast did not start yet, then I want some payoff later on that shows how her quote is not included in the final newspaper (and that the main characters comment on this fact). Would be a great reminder of the fact that Shinra owns the papers, which is not focused on a lot in the game.

But that's a matter of personal taste.

 

[Octo]

Tbh, as much as I love FFVII, it can get very 'cartoony' at times, and then be super serious the next minute. And vice versa. Lets not forget 'Bereavement Snowboarding'

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't know how everyone wanted them to get down that mountain. Would skiing have been more appropriate?

Besides, I thought people are always lamenting the lack of levity (alliteration ho!) in the new ones.

 

[Octo]

Presumably if there was an established snowboarding/skiing course there would have been some form of skii lift. A sombre skii lift ride would have been more appropriate. IIRC at least the chocobo music wasn't playing.

Yeah there is a lack of levity in the compilation, it doesn't jive with the original. Thats why a remake wouldn't really work that well. I wasn't really complaining about the jokey elements in FFVII, just that looking back it can be a bit jarring.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yes the music's only in gold saucer. The trip itself is silent.