Shinra executing Barret/Tifa=Justified? (kinda)

[Shademp]

FFVII's cartoony aspects is an important part of its personality. I see the "snowboarding down the hill" as a great thing to contrast with the tragic of Aerith's death. In fact, I wouldn't mind if the snowboarding section was even more colorful and with an actual MUSIC TRACK playing instead of just the silence of the wind accompanying the player. I wonder if the lack of music was intentional so to prevent too much happiness so close to Aerith's demise...


Compare it to the Lion King, when Mufasa dies and then Simba goes off to sing Hakuna Matata with his new buddies. Then there are other movies where the transition from tragedy to happiness is too sudden (see Disney's Bambi), but still, I think it adds to one's emotional investment by exploring two opposite emotions so closely together in the narrative.

Scarlet's brutal honesty in Junon could be seen as another cartoony element; the element of the over-the-top villain who exclaims stuff with glee. So while I have criticized this scene a bit, I do admit that it still carries some of FFVII's personality.

If there is one "cartoony" scene that I would definitely want to see changed into something extremely dramatic, it's the flashback scene in Mt. Corel where Scarlet shoots one of her own infantrymen. Currently, the scene does not feel serious or brutal at all because of the character models and the text bubbles in which everything is presented. In fact I find the moment to be a bit funny.

But imagine how terrifying Scarlet could be depicted here in realistic graphics. Imagine how Scarlet sighs at the poor marksmanship of the grunts. Then when she pulls out her own gun, a high-pitched note of madness plays in the background and rises quickly in volume as she with a smile holds the gun to her own soldier's head and BAM! The high-pitched note has now silenced and the player is adequately moved by this Kefka/Joker type, non-empathic death lover.

I believe a remake could bring out both more comedy and more drama in the story, by the directors finding ways to take advantage of realistic graphics rather than having it work against them.

 

[Novus]

I wasn't really complaining about the jokey elements in FFVII, just that looking back it can be a bit jarring.

The best things usually are. When they're not it looks like a computer put it together, like those CallOfDuty games.

Hang on. There is such a thing as "national" television in FFVII? Just another example of terms from the real world seeping into FFVII when it's not really applicable.

I think it does, which is why I’m more cool with it being ‘the planet’ than its Lovelockian moniker. I’m also cool with any continuity errors, and more concerned with what the writer intended and how it parallels to 20th century events (like the Cid rocket error). There is a Costa del Sol so I’m pretty certain it was intentional.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Hang on. There is such a thing as "national" television in FFVII?

It's not the first time 'national' has been used in the context; during the Junon parade, one of the soldiers says the parade will be broadcast on national television.

It's hard to tell due to FFVII's world being a victim of extremely poor worldbuilding (the setting isn't built up at all except for 'X town is here'), but its not too big of a stretch to assume there are/is/was a dominant nation state, or at least multiple ones. Even though Shinra owns Midgar, for example, they still kept its mayor. Also, the concept of nations isn't unknown, as Wutai is still an independent, although weakened entity.

 

[Roger]

Yeah, I'd say it more means continental tv (Junon, Midgar, the whole landmass) but that would sound weird.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Remember it was only the attack on the 1st Mako Reactor that killed those civilians, the one before you meet her.

UPDATE 9-4-2014: "Executing Barret possibly justified" What in the name of fuck was I thinking? Please everyone, forgive me, I was such an immature ass when I posted this stupid dipshit comment...

 

[ForceStealer]

She was a part AVALANCHE before that thought and took prt in raids that killed Shinra troops, at least.

We discussed once before that if anyone has an "out" for culpability, it's Cloud as he was 'just a mercenary' rather than motivated by malice. But even that's tenuous.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, Tifa was an active member of the group before that raid, and it was her bar in which that attack was planned and to which Barret and co. returned after. She also participated in the destruction of the no. 5 reactor, which killed troops, if not also civilians.

 

[Masamune]

Good question. I'm going to say no, it wasn't justified. Shinra weren't executing them in the name of justice, they were doing it simply for propaganda purposes. Something tells me that Tifa & Barret weren't given any form of due process and there's the little matter of them being executed for a crime they did not commit. Moreover, from what Palmer mentions, public executions were a thing of the past, so in a nutshell Shinra have arbitrarily violated their own laws simply because they needed a political scapegoat.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, justified, as in, 'Justice' in the sense that it was the 'right' thing to do? No. Was it pragmatic? I'd argue so. If I was a world spanning oppressive regime it would make a lot of sense to publicly execute some of the biggest threats to it, even if you end up blaming it on something else as a tool. No matter how you slice it, they are legal terrorists. They don't deserve to be executed, but from a narrative point of view Shinra had no reason to let them go.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

How do we know that anyone died in the Sector 5 reactor attack. Based on Case of Denzel, when Shinra decided to drop the Sector 7 plate, they at least decided to evacuate their own employees, such as Denzel's dad. Considering they had foreknowledge of the second reactor raid, it's not a stretch to say that they evacuated the reactor beforehand as well. Any casualties would therefore be on Shinra's fault since they knew beforehand and had the means and ability to prevent the raid, yet did nothing to safeguard their employees. (Even if the Shinra higherups aren't exactly "employer of the year" material.)

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Also, note that when Cait Sith and Barret are arguing, note that Cait specifically calls him out on the first bombing, on Mako Reactor #1 (The one where Tifa had no involvement). If anybody had been killed in the second attack, you'd think he would have called him on that too. Plus the 1st reactor attack is the only one mentioned in the novellas. (Case of Tifa, Case of Barret, Maiden Who Travels The Planet). The second reactor attack is never mentioned as causing any casualties or lasting damage. They even rebuilt the second reactor to power the Sister Ray. Anything afterwards can be easily argued as either self-defense or simply guilt by association on Tifa's part. Also if Tifa had any part in the planning, don't you think she would have reflected on that in "Case of Tifa" while she's grieving.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The first reactor attack was planned in Tifa's bar, where she then offered refuge to the other members of AVALANCHE after they had detonated the bomb. She also recruited Cloud for the mission, and it's rather safe to say he played a vital role in the operation.

She was in it up to her ears. Not guilt by association. Just straight-up guilt. President Shinra wasn't guilty of what happened to Sector 7 only by association simply because he didn't personally press the button that dropped the plate.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

How do we know that anyone died in the Sector 5 reactor attack. Based on Case of Denzel, when Shinra decided to drop the Sector 7 plate, they at least decided to evacuate their own employees, such as Denzel's dad. Considering they had foreknowledge of the second reactor raid, it's not a stretch to say that they evacuated the reactor beforehand as well. Any casualties would therefore be on Shinra's fault since they knew beforehand and had the means and ability to prevent the raid, yet did nothing to safeguard their employees. (Even if the Shinra higherups aren't exactly "employer of the year" material.)

You make a valid point. We don't know if the second reactor attack caused any loss of life, although we can safely assume that if any lives were lost due to Shinra's negligence, the President wouldn't really be bothered.

But Hawkeye is right: Tifa was an active member of this terrorist cell, and just because she didn't go on that one particular mission to Reactor 1 doesn't mean she isn't equally guilty. I am pretty sure that Tifa acknowledges her own guilt in the OG and also in the novella.

And also - I'm not exactly sure how to put this, but I like the fact that Tifa's guilt is equal to that of Barret's. There's often a tendency in these violent situations to make excuses for the women involved and treat them as mere accessories to the guilt of the men, the active agents. Tifa's guilt confirms her agency. She is a fully independent woman who makes her own choices.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Just because she recruited Cloud does not mean she's responsible for what he does in her absence. That would be like blaming an army recruiter for a soldier's war crimes. It's unrealistic and unfair.

Also, I'm not defending Tifa just because she's a woman. I'm simply calling the evidence as I see it. Otherwise, I would be defending Jessie too.

President Shinra may not have personally destroyed the Sector 7 Pillar, but he himself (well, He and Heidegger) ordered the attack.

Tifa neither ordered the first bombing, helped plan the first bombing, nor detonated said bomb herself. Therefore, she's not responsible for any of the lives her friends took. Simply being an active agent doesn't make her responsible for the actions of the others.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I didn't mean to suggest that you were trying to exonerate Tifa because she's a woman. I meant, rather, that it is a tendency in society to assume that women involved in violent crimes were somehow coerced or persuaded into it by men, or "didn't really know" what was going on.

As for the rest, I respectfully disagree. Tifa knew what was going on in her basement, and in fact you have no evidence to support your contention that she wasn't involved in the planning. Tifa was a trained and very powerful fighter, and she loathed Shinra with every fibre of her being. How likely is it that she was content to stand behind the bar serving their drinks and cooking their meals while the rest of them went out to fight (and kill)?. I put it to you that it is not likely at all.

Tifa was an active member of Avalanche, and the Reactor 1 bombing was not their first attack. As Jessie said, "Many of our people lost their lives to get this information." Tifa knew what they were planning and did nothing to prevent the inevitable loss of life. She is, if anything, even more culpable than Reeve, who at least made a show of objecting to the Sector 7 plate drop (but was very easily silenced). What's more, even after the substantial loss of life in the first bombing becomes known, Tifa goes along on the second bombing, and why? is it so that she can try to keep innocent casualities to a minimum? No - it's to keep an eye on Cloud.

In hating we become the thing we hate. Tifa says to Cloud that she hates all this stuff, war, fighting, killing - yet her hatred of Shinra was such that she joined a terrorist group, well aware of what their methods would be. Thanks to Shinra's actions, Cloud forgets for a while the truth about who he is, and in a way the same thing happens to Tifa.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Disliking fighting doesn't mean she's afraid to fight if she feels she has to. She's not the first in this regard. For example, anyone who's played the Megaman X games knows that X is a pacifist at heart who laments having to fight in the Maverick Wars. Yet he himself isn't afraid to fight if he deems it necessary or to avenge those close to him (like Zero or anyone else lost in the Maverick Wars). Tifa dislikes battle yet she fights on to avenge her friends and family who suffered because of Shinra. I guarantee you if someone torched your home and killed your family and friends (if not worse), you wouldn't just sit by and do nothing either

Also there's no proof any previous actions before the reactor bombings. If I remember right, Jessie got the plans off the computer. Said plans were left by Fuhito. Fuhito was a member and at some point leader of the original incarnation of AVALANCHE. Therefore, you could argue that said members who gave their lives were members of the original AVALANCHE.

Tifa had no reason to believe that the Sector 1 attack would kill as many as it did. Remember that the only reason it killed so many civilians is because Jessie botched the bomb and made it too powerful.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yeah, when we start talking about the amount of terrorist activity Barret's Avalanche carried out before the game begins, we're into headcanon territory. Once upon a time we could have argued that the fact that their name was well-known (even people in Kalm had heard of them, IIRC) proved that they'd been carrying out terrorist activities for at least a little while, but Before Crisis put paid to that; it's possible that bombing of Reactor 1 was their first ever mission (although that still wouldn't explain Jessie's line about all the people who had died to get the code). And yes, they were all surprised by the number of casualties they caused when they bombed Sector 1. Didn't stop them going out to bomb sector 5, did it?

Disliking fighting doesn't mean she's afraid to fight if she feels she has to. She's not the first in this regard. For example, anyone who's played the Megaman X games knows that X is a pacifist at heart who laments having to fight in the Maverick Wars. Yet he himself isn't afraid to fight if he deems it necessary or to avenge those close to him (like Zero or anyone else lost in the Maverick Wars). Tifa dislikes battle yet she fights on to avenge her friends and family who suffered because of Shinra. I guarantee you if someone torched your home and killed your family and friends (if not worse), you wouldn't just sit by and do nothing either

You do realise that this is exactly the same kind of logic employed by the 9/11 hijackers, don't you? I don't know how you can fail to see that the whole point of this game, the main message behind is, is that this kind of thinking gets us nowhere . Tfa doesn't need to punish Shinra; Shinra has created its own punishment. Shinra screws around with nature and everybody suffers, even - especially - Shinra. There's a reason why Weapon is the one to "kill" Rufus rather than Cloud and Co. (Of course later they brought Rufus back to life, but that was only so the Planet could punish him some more.)

 

[ultima espio]

I always thought that Barret and Tifa got captured because they were too slow getting away. I mean Tifa was KO'd, and Barret was trying to run away carrying her. I thought the others just managed to escape and spent a week coming up with a plan to free them.

But it does make sense that they only wanted those 2, they are the only ones who did any actual crime. Blowing up the reactors, framed for dropping the plate and raiding the shinra building, like Scarlet said the people will feel better if someone is punished...so why not execute those high profile criminals?

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Yeah, when we start talking about the amount of terrorist activity Barret's Avalanche carried out before the game begins, we're into headcanon territory. Once upon a time we could have argued that the fact that their name was well-known (even people in Kalm had heard of them, IIRC) proved that they'd been carrying out terrorist activities for at least a little while, but Before Crisis put paid to that; it's possible that bombing of Reactor 1 was their first ever mission (although that still wouldn't explain Jessie's line about all the people who had died to get the code). And yes, they were all surprised by the number of casualties they caused when they bombed Sector 1. Didn't stop them going out to bomb sector 5, did it?


You do realise that this is exactly the same kind of logic employed by the 9/11 hijackers, don't you? I don't know how you can fail to see that the whole point of this game, the main message behind is, is that this kind of thinking gets us nowhere . Tfa doesn't need to punish Shinra; Shinra has created its own punishment. Shinra screws around with nature and everybody suffers, even - especially - Shinra. There's a reason why Weapon is the one to "kill" Rufus rather than Cloud and Co. (Of course later they brought Rufus back to life, but that was only so the Planet could punish him some more.)

Rebellions don't end because of one atrocity. In Dragon Age II, did Anders blowing up the Chantry stop the mages from rebelling against the templars. Did the fall of Sky Lagoon stop the Repliforce War (granted that was Dragoon and not Repliforce, but still.)

This was also our mentality when we went to the Middle East to avenge what happened on 9/11. This was our mentality when we declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor. This was our mentality for Britain's attacks on our ships that began the War of 1812. Hell, this was our mentality when we fought against Britain in the Revolutionary War. Tifa doesn't have the power of foresight. Sitting back and doing nothing wasn't going to guarantee justice for Nibelheim, Corel or anybody else Shinra screwed over. Should our Founding Fathers have sat on their asses while Britain treated the colonies like dirt. Should we have done nothing when Pearl Harbor attacked.
To quote Edmund Burke, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

lol wut.

So why are you just defending Tifa and not Barret/the rest of Avalanche?

Anyway reading this bringing in the Western we were right mentality/etc I think this is starting to become a case of not being able to see the trees for the forest (or was that the other way around)?

I'm pretty sure a true good man would not go on about how necessary or right something was, I would think there are people on all sides of the wars who have regrets. Whether Pearl Harbor or those villages in Japan I think people involved would have nightmares and regrets for a long time, possibly carrying them with them until the day they died/die. Same with these sort of situations in general really for some people.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The problem starts when what the rebels do is just as bad or worse then the regime they are trying to overthrow. Because then there isn't a difference between the rebels and the regime; it's two parties fighting each other and each party is trying to come out on top.

At the beginning of FFVII, AVALANCHE bombs a power-plant. Even if no one is killed, the power-plant is going to be destroyed and anything that gets power from it won't work. Say what you want about Shin-Ra, but they do supply the general population with a steady supply of electric power. Disrupting that makes the lives of normal people harder then it would have been if AVALANCHE hadn't bombed the power-plant. And then they go for a repeat bombing...

Part of what makes AVALANCHE the good guys ultimately is not the fact that they are rebelling against the regime, but that they realize that they messed up in how they rebelled against the regime. Heck, after FFVII, Barret goes and gets in on helping find the new non-mako energy source. If AVALANCHE didn't feel sorry for what they did, they would be much less sympathetic then they are... they'd probably be more along the lines of anti-heroes then heroes.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

In defense of AVALANCHE, (Barret's group anyway.)I wouldn't go as far as to say their methods are as bad as Shinra. After all, I'm not completely against their methods. (Personally I think they just had the wrong targets. They should have targeted the execs instead of the reactors.) At least they don't go around slaughtering entire towns, kidnapping and conscripting random people, or performing all manner of twisted experiments on said random people. Oh and let's not forget Deepground (FF7's Auschwitz, Godwin's Law be damned) . Compared to Shinra, they're saints.

Also, last I checked, a power outage didn't warrant getting tossed in a gas chamber.

Anyway, I think we're getting off topic. The original question was whether Barret and Tifa's attempted execution was justified or not. I repeat my original answer.

Barret = perhaps since he was involved in the attack that killed all those innocent people.

Tifa = No because she had no involvement in said innocent deaths.

 

[Clement Rage]

Sure, but the reactor bombing wasn't what they were being executed for. They were being executed for ostensibly causing Meteorfall and the Weapons... which you could pin on Cloud, but not Tifa or Barret.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Which proves my point.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Sure, but the reactor bombing wasn't what they were being executed for. They were being executed for ostensibly causing Meteorfall and the Weapons... which you could pin on Cloud, but not Tifa or Barret.

To answer your question, the thread is asking whether Barret and Tifa deserved to be executed because of the reactor bombings