A few thoughts about Aerith, Tifa, and others...
- Thread starter Jairus
- Start date
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Except that Aerith's loss doesn't happen for at least another game, perhaps two. In terms of Part 1 only, loss isn't part of her angle, so for Part 1, nothing can be taken away. Do you think no one's ever lost more than one person they cared about before? Also, just because Yuffie's way of being in the third slot was comedic doesn't mean Jessie's has to be the same way if she were in it. And you didn't give me an answer. PC's have been involved with NPC's in the series before.
Eerie, you say it makes no sense, but you don't say how. Nothing would be taken from Aerith's arc because this is only for Part 1 and Aerith lives through the entire thing. By the time she does die, Jessie will have been long gone and years will have passed in between the release of the games. And you don't know that in the remake that he'll only have known the trio for a few days. The remake might extend that period to weeks, at least, if not a bit more, since we'll be doing a lot more with them. You can't make any assumptions about that. Also, the fallout from the two losses, as they're in separate games, could be handled differently, to differentiate them more, without taking away from Aerith's arc.
And besides, we don't know that he'll have the same interest level in them at that time that he may have had in the OG. The only sure indication of interest he had in Tifa at that time in the OG was the promise, and that could have been seen as past interest, since his rescue of her at Corneo's could have been seen to have just been out of simple friendship if the player wanted to see it that way. And just because you find someone attractive doesn't mean you always act on it right away or even want to. So he could find them both attractive but also not feel the desire to do anything about it at the present time. They're both wanting things from him - Tifa practically twisting his arm with the promise to get him to stay and Aerith wanting to stick around because of what she sees of Zack in him. So he could feel a little pressured by that.
Jessie's the only one who doesn't want anything from him, and she's actually the first of the three that we see do something nice for him, and with no expectation of anything in return. Sure, the special ID didn't work out so well, but that wasn't on purpose. All she wanted was to make him happy and get him to notice her. I know the other two girls help him, too, but that's not until later. Jessie was the first we see to even try. We don't see Tifa finding him at the station until much later in the FFVII story during the lifestream dive.
And also, Tifa and Aerith's arcs don't culminate until long after Midgar. No matter what happens in Part 1, there's a built-in limit to how far they can go in that game. Jessie has no such limit, as this is her only game and her development is being expanded. And would SE have deliberately put her in a situation (riding through a harrowing bike chase with her crush) that would very likely feed her feelings if they weren't going to address them somehow? I don't think so. Just because you can't see how it could work doesn't mean it couldn't ever work. Thing is, people's experience with the OG can make them resistant and unreceptive to new ideas. They're so used to how things were that they don't even think about how things could be done differently and still work. People dismiss it without even considering that it could be implemented well, just because they haven't seen it themselves and are coming purely from the experience of the OG. But if it was done, and it was done well, what then would you say? What would you think?
Eerie, you say it makes no sense, but you don't say how. Nothing would be taken from Aerith's arc because this is only for Part 1 and Aerith lives through the entire thing. By the time she does die, Jessie will have been long gone and years will have passed in between the release of the games. And you don't know that in the remake that he'll only have known the trio for a few days. The remake might extend that period to weeks, at least, if not a bit more, since we'll be doing a lot more with them. You can't make any assumptions about that. Also, the fallout from the two losses, as they're in separate games, could be handled differently, to differentiate them more, without taking away from Aerith's arc.
And besides, we don't know that he'll have the same interest level in them at that time that he may have had in the OG. The only sure indication of interest he had in Tifa at that time in the OG was the promise, and that could have been seen as past interest, since his rescue of her at Corneo's could have been seen to have just been out of simple friendship if the player wanted to see it that way. And just because you find someone attractive doesn't mean you always act on it right away or even want to. So he could find them both attractive but also not feel the desire to do anything about it at the present time. They're both wanting things from him - Tifa practically twisting his arm with the promise to get him to stay and Aerith wanting to stick around because of what she sees of Zack in him. So he could feel a little pressured by that.
Jessie's the only one who doesn't want anything from him, and she's actually the first of the three that we see do something nice for him, and with no expectation of anything in return. Sure, the special ID didn't work out so well, but that wasn't on purpose. All she wanted was to make him happy and get him to notice her. I know the other two girls help him, too, but that's not until later. Jessie was the first we see to even try. We don't see Tifa finding him at the station until much later in the FFVII story during the lifestream dive.
And also, Tifa and Aerith's arcs don't culminate until long after Midgar. No matter what happens in Part 1, there's a built-in limit to how far they can go in that game. Jessie has no such limit, as this is her only game and her development is being expanded. And would SE have deliberately put her in a situation (riding through a harrowing bike chase with her crush) that would very likely feed her feelings if they weren't going to address them somehow? I don't think so. Just because you can't see how it could work doesn't mean it couldn't ever work. Thing is, people's experience with the OG can make them resistant and unreceptive to new ideas. They're so used to how things were that they don't even think about how things could be done differently and still work. People dismiss it without even considering that it could be implemented well, just because they haven't seen it themselves and are coming purely from the experience of the OG. But if it was done, and it was done well, what then would you say? What would you think?
Alex Strife
Ex-SOLDIER
It's a metaphor, Tets. A meeetaphoooor!!
The point is that Jessie does not HAVE to receive more attention. She can, or she can not. But saying "should" is what riles people up, Jairus. Because your whole attitude is: "I like Jessie / I ship Jessie with Cloud, she should get more focus. If you disagree, you're either wrong or you just don't get it. These are the reasons why".
People have different opinions. You are entitled to have yours, to think you would like to see something. But if you're prepared to tell people why something SHOULD be one way, be prepared to have people reply why it shouldn't.
And as an example, my own opinion:
- I found Jessie an interesting and fun small NPC.
- As a contrast to Tifa and Aerith, Jessie's minimal flirtation serves to show just how disconnected Cloud is at first.
- The fact Cloud's not interested in Jessie in the OG or at least seems to show no interest makes his perceived interest for Tifa and/or Aerith more genuine. (ie. he's not a ladies' man).
- I found Tifa and Aerith considerably more interesting. It makes sense, they're main characters.
- I love that Jessie's getting an expanded role and we can see more of her.
- I wouldn't enjoy if Jessie were to "occupy" the position of "love interest who dies". It'd cheapen Aerith's role in that sense. Even if it happens one, two or ten games away. It's her "role" in the love triangle. And expanding a secondary character's role at the expense of a main character's is not good writing.
And really, I say this in the friendliest way, Jairus. From the outside, you're talking A LOT about Jessie. And it's all fine and dandy until every other post you make is about the same topic. I just wish you get I'm not saying this to start a fight!
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
There's also such concerns to consider as diminishing returns with the repetition of plot elements in a narrative, the potential dilution of character arcs, and the optics of one more fridged love interest.
I'm going to be honest with you that I feel you're operating with tunnel vision in your focus on the benefit (as you see it) that this would offer to a single character's narrative rather than whether it would offer value that would enhance the narrative at large. You're not even really attempting to make a case that it would.
I don't tend to make rash judgments about people I know dick all about, but the very fact that you're asking another person you know dick all about this in such a pedantic way leads me to confidently believe that I have known exponentially more living, loving and loss in my 33 years than yourself.Jairus said:
If you did actually know me, you would possibly tell yourself to get fucked right about now. I don't quite fully feel the need to tell you to, but you might. =P
Jairus said:
I didn't say it did. I was pointing out the silly self-inflicted harm of invoking Yuffie's third-ness from the original as support.
Jairus said:
What are you looking for here? You said you wanted to know why there aren't more players champing at the bit for this idea, and I told you. Also, I said more than "she's an NPC," but by all means, feel free to misrepresent what I've said more.
Agree with it, disagree with it; that's not my concern. You've got an answer to your question.
NibelFire
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- Blaze
On a more positive note, I think you would make for a great pioneer of the Clessie (?) club, @Jairus. Feel free to head over and make your case against the Cleriths and the CloTis of this community. With the return of FF7 comes the fantastic waifu battles once again, which I've sorely missed to tell the truth. 
But if it's about trying to prove how your vision would be better for the narrative of FF7 as a whole, I don't think it's a battle you can win. Best leave it as is to not derail this too far and still gain nothing from it.
But if it's about trying to prove how your vision would be better for the narrative of FF7 as a whole, I don't think it's a battle you can win. Best leave it as is to not derail this too far and still gain nothing from it.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Each of the games in the series is supposed to be a complete adventure, and they'll be released several years apart, so nothing would be diluted or overly repeated. And what do you mean by fridged?
You don't know that it couldn't enhance the narrative at large, either. It all depends on how it's implemented. You're just making an automatic assumption that it wouldn't.
I'm sorry if I came off as pedantic, I wasn't trying to refer specifically to you, but in general. And I do know love and loss quite well, thank you. My girlfriend, the mother of my older son, died unexpectedly eight years ago from illness. We had been together almost seven years by then. I found her that morning, and trust me, it's not something you ever forget. I've been raising my two boys, one of which has special needs, basically on my own ever since, and I lost my dad just two years ago, so don't tell me I don't know what living, loving, and loss are. I know them better than you think.
I only brought it up to illustrate that the idea of a third option has precedent within FFVII, that's all.
Maybe I didn't catch it, and I'm sorry about that.
I suppose I could have used a different word than "should". I didn't think about how that would be taken, and I'm sorry. But it actually is possible for Cloud to have some interest in Jess. He had the option of flirting with her in the original, and we'll likely have that in the remake as well. And you don't generally flirt with someone you don't feel at least some attraction to. I just don't see how expanding her role would cut into Aerith's, especially if it was approached differently. It doesn't have to. Part 1 is big enough for all three to be developed without interfering with each other. Just because they both die doesn't mean the arc and the aftermath have to be done in the same way. It can work if they're handled differently, especially if he were farther along with Aerith when she dies than he'd been with Jess when she went. That does make a difference, I think. And it would add to the trauma of Aerith's loss because it would be a compounding of what came before. Also, it would be a clever way to throw off the newcomers. Because they'd assume after losing Jess that Aerith and Tifa would be safe from being lost, thus making the surprise of the moment for them even greater than it otherwise would have been when the rug gets pulled out from under them with Aerith.
I'm sorry I've brought this up a lot, I was actually trying not to get into this whole discussion in this thread and keep it on the trio, but it got brought up. I know you're not trying to start a fight, and I appreciate that.
NIbel, I appreciate the suggestion, but who would go there? Based on the responses I get here, it doesn't seem like anyone would be interested. I'm not trying to prove anything, either, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I guess I'm just trying to get people to look at things from angles they haven't before and not write something off just because they don't think it's feasible. But rather, to see that there may be ways that things like this could be done without harming Aerith's arc or the overall story and to not limit themselves to what they think they know, that it might not necessarily be the damaging thing they think it could be. To just be open to new possibilities is all, and not write them off because of concerns of what they might do but are not certain to do.
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leadmyskeptic
Pro Adventurer
obsession
noun
ob·ses·sion | \ äb-ˈse-shən , əb-\
Definition of obsession
1: a persistent disturbing preoccupation with an often unreasonable idea or feeling broadly : compelling motivation / an obsession with profits / has an obsession with gambling
2: something that causes an obsession / Losing weight can be an obsession that results in the avoidance of certain foods.
noun
ob·ses·sion | \ äb-ˈse-shən , əb-\
Definition of obsession
1: a persistent disturbing preoccupation with an often unreasonable idea or feeling broadly : compelling motivation / an obsession with profits / has an obsession with gambling
2: something that causes an obsession / Losing weight can be an obsession that results in the avoidance of certain foods.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Again, lead, you didn't answer my question. Throwing definitions at me isn't any way to get me to be receptive to you. Maybe try actually acting like a human being instead of being condescending. And your comment isn't helping, either, pxp. Don't you realize that saying things like that only has the opposite effect from what you're trying to achieve?
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
On the one hand, this is essentially what Square Enix is asking us to do with this game as a whole. On the other hand, Square Enix is also telling us to not forget how the original game went and felt like because that is what the Remake will fee like.
There is such a thing as misusing that sentiment though. And I think that's what is getting people riled up here. For most of us, trying to add yet another character into the Love Triangle would change too much of the original game. And we already know a lot is changing, some of it fairly substantially. At a fundamental level though, most of us don't want the game to change too much. We love the old game and would prefer the Remake stick closer to it rather then leave it behind. And it kinda sounds like that is what you have a problem with.
I don't think you quite realize what you are suggesting. You're pretty much asking us to consider if Square Enix will change one of the longest fandom debates in gaming history into something else. All for the sake of giving a minor NPC more prominence. And I don't think they will. It's too iconic of a debate to change. The debate is not "Out of all the women who have a crush on Cloud, which one is he romantically interested in?". The debate is, "Cloud is only romantically interested in two characters: Tifa and Aerith. Which one was he more in love with? The one that died or the one that lived?".
If what you are suggesting wouldn't intersect with a fandom debate of that level, then I think people would be more open to what you are suggesting. But no matter what changes you suggest, we would go through them with a fine toothed comb and tease out how they would effect the plot, characterization and world-building. That's why a lot of us originally came to this forum!
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
That makes sense, Obsidian.
Moreover, Aerith's death is a shocking, profoundly moving, key turning point in the game.
If Jessie were to be built up to the same extent and then die too, FFVII would become the game in which the protagonist's girlfriends get serially fridged. Which would open it up to mockery. Which is not what anyone wants.
Moreover, Aerith's death is a shocking, profoundly moving, key turning point in the game.
If Jessie were to be built up to the same extent and then die too, FFVII would become the game in which the protagonist's girlfriends get serially fridged. Which would open it up to mockery. Which is not what anyone wants.
Teioh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Teiocho
To be fair SE haven't shown much of Aerith or Tifa to date. We only got to see them for the first time June this year! And even then it's taken them ages to add their bios and renders onto the official website. And since they're so slow at giving us these things there's still a chance that we will see more of Jessie, Biggs and Wedge in the run up to release day.
We have seen quite a bit of the trio already though, yes mainly in trailers and demos and whatnot but we have seen them pretty much from the beginning. Other than Cloud and Barret they are the characters we have seen the most of (that art gallery and SE interview they did about the character designs, several trailers of the opening bombing mission, Jessie's demo appearance/hacking thing she did of Shinra's propaganda etc).
Can't fault SE for finally showing some love for the girls at this point, especially as they ramp up the promotional materials for release.
Anyway the part I want to see most from the trio is something SE will probably keep out of any future trailers and leave for the players to discover for themselves. And that's their last scenes. It has always bothered me that when Cloud is climbing the pillar and having last words, Tifa has no lines. Give me Tifa interacting with the trio!
We have seen quite a bit of the trio already though, yes mainly in trailers and demos and whatnot but we have seen them pretty much from the beginning. Other than Cloud and Barret they are the characters we have seen the most of (that art gallery and SE interview they did about the character designs, several trailers of the opening bombing mission, Jessie's demo appearance/hacking thing she did of Shinra's propaganda etc).
Can't fault SE for finally showing some love for the girls at this point, especially as they ramp up the promotional materials for release.
Anyway the part I want to see most from the trio is something SE will probably keep out of any future trailers and leave for the players to discover for themselves. And that's their last scenes. It has always bothered me that when Cloud is climbing the pillar and having last words, Tifa has no lines. Give me Tifa interacting with the trio!
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Individual seasons of "Supernatural" and "The 100" have their own individual throughlines yet still warrant harsh criticism when repackaging prior (superior) seasons' plot elements, regardless of being separated by several years.
A recent poorly received run on "Uncanny X-Men" repeated a threat-of-looming-extinction-for-mutantkind ongoing plot for the second time in four years. A seven-year storyline centered around it was resolved back in 2012, only for it to emerge again from 2015-2017, then pop up again early this year. And it warranted every bit of derision it received, both in conception and execution.
Let's get down to brass tacks. Some ideas don't receive a warm reception because people:
- Don't buy the premise
- Are tired of the premise
- Think the premise is crap in the first place
Even a good premise can wear out its welcome, and it isn't at all unreasonable for people to not be convinced that it's a good idea for a good premise to be recycled. Or for them to not be convinced by a particular approach to a good premise, if they don't buy that the scenario would occur to begin with.
That's not to say it can't be done successfully and surprise people, but there's no obligation on anyone's part to be hyped for something they aren't sold on. Especially if it's altogether hypothetical to begin with and they not only aren't sold on it but also don't have reason to expect it.
Add to that for this particular case the general toxicity of the love triangle within the fandom and how much it's despised, it's perfectly understandable that there are also people checking off the "Think the premise is crap in the first place" option. =P
If -- despite all of that -- an idea with so much going against it actually happens and is done well, it will be acknowledged as such.
Jairus said:
You know, the Girlfriends In Refrigerators trope -- killing off supporting female characters (usually romantic interests) for the purpose of Man Pain in a leading male character.
It's often an unfair and overblown charge leveled at works of fiction every time female characters die/are depowered/are on the receiving end of something traumatic, but it's valid just as often -- perhaps more often valid than not. To use "Supernatural" as an example once again, it earns this critique.
Jairus said:
"Automatic" and "assumption" entail a knee-jerk response without critical thought or literary analysis. Most folks who have responsed to you about this idea very clearly haven't been doing that.
Jairus said:
I'm really sorry you have had these difficulties. There aren't really words for adequately capturing the essence of how any of it feels.
As someone who has such unenviably valuable perspective, though, you more than most should be mindful of the assumptions you remark upon over inconsequential disagreements like what we're discussing here.
We can leave this at that and move on. Life is too short to dwell on the hard feelings.
Jairus said:
It could do that or it may have the opposite effect -- i.e. newcomers may then expect additional culling because we're down to two romantic interests after starting with three, and so it's a matter of time before we're down to the last woman standing.
And in the worst case scenario, it may make for Aerith's death being received with an "Of course" and an eyeroll when the time comes.
Jairus said:
People's interest in pairings is not really limited to whether they think it should or even could happen.
In fairness, that kind of runs both ways. "New possibilities" don't guarantee improvements.Jairus said:
And once again, we're not so much talking about a new thing as we are talking about repeating an old thing beyond the one time (Aerith) it would have been expected.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Thank you. All I really wanted was for folks to acknowledge that such a thing is not only possible, but that it could be done well.
Oh, I wasn't aware of that trope. I don't follow that stuff very much, actually.
I suppose, it just feels that way sometimes when all I seem to hear is disagreement and reasons why a thing can't be done as opposed to any encouragement.
Thank you, and I can see your point about that. I'm sorry if I said too much.
I'll admit I hadn't thought of that, but it might not necessarily have that effect, either. It's all in how it's implemented, I think.
I didn't know that. I just thought everyone backed their ship or ships and that was it.
They don't necessarily not guarantee them, either. They can just as easily be improvements. I just want folks to think of that and be open to that, is all.
How you get to a narrative point is almost as important as what that point is, and the how could be very different between the two. But speaking purely in terms of gameplay, FFVII does have precedent for a third (and fourth) option in the date mechanic, so it's not unreasonable to think that if that mechanic is present in Part 1, that they could put Jessie in the third spot for that game. Also, there really is no canon pairing in the game because of how the player - and thus, Cloud - has the ability to choose how to treat the girls. It's quite possible to put them both down and end up with one of the other options at the Gold Saucer and only the friendship version of Tifa's Highwind scenes, thus in that case, he'd have seen neither her nor Aerith as a love interest at all.
Something similar could be possible in Part 1 with its version of the date mechanic, such that who Cloud views with affection is dependent on the choices and actions he (and the player) make. So his choice of love interest would be different every time you play depending on those choices. And Nomura himself said that he had no idea whether Cloud and Tifa were ever involved after FFVII, so if even the creators don't have a firm position, then it's unlikely that the game will enforce one but may instead let us choose. Which I think would work out for everyone, because people could experience that part of the game however they wanted (be it favoring Aerith, Tifa, or possibly even Jessie), just as they can with the OG through how they treat the girls and Barret. It's been confirmed that choices-dependent events and scenes will be in Part 1, so I think there's a good chance that this may be how they handle the love angle.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
For what it's worth, I do expect the upcoming first part of the remake to have something comparable to the Gold Saucer date, with more than two options.
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
I don't know how you guys do it. I just straight up do not have the patience.
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
he said, condescendingly
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
That might be how you read it, but that's not how I was trying to be. He just set me off, is all.
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
There is no universe in which that sentence can be uttered and it isn't condescending.
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Okay, guys, I'm about one post from locking this. Cool it, please.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
I'm not trying to argue about anything. I was just trying to explain how I felt. I could have responded to lead differently, and I'm sorry I got irritated with him and said what I said. EM didn't have to bring it up the way she did, though. She could have been polite about it instead of seeming to be rude, and there wouldn't have been an argument.
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
*He
Yeah, I shouldn't have engaged. Clearly Jairus and I just don't mesh well. I'm gonna step away now.
Yeah, I shouldn't have engaged. Clearly Jairus and I just don't mesh well. I'm gonna step away now.