Advent Children rant thread

[ExampleZ]

I think it's been established that Advent Children is a terrible movie, even the fans can admit it and that the cool action scenes more than made up for whatever shortcomings the movie may have. I admit I used to be in this camp, yet the more I became a fan of the original game, the more I realized how much the movie contradicted it, and is possibly the worst form of fanservice ever made. I should probably also mention that I have not read On The Way To A Smile or any other Final Fantasy novel, and don't plan on ever doing so, and if that invalidates what I have to say then so be it. Anyway, let's get on with the rant:

I'll start with Cloud being emo for half of the movie. In the final cutscene to the game Cloud says "I think I'm beginning to understand...an answer from the planet...the Promised Land...I think I can meet her there." to which Tifa cheerfully agrees. When you take into context the true meaning of "the Promised Land" (in that it's actually referring to the Cetra's concept of the afterlife) Cloud is saying he can see her again in the afterlife, meaning that he's accepting that she's gone, but he'll see her again some day. It could be at the end of his lifespan, it could be right there and then in the collapsing Northern Cave, but the point is both Cloud and Tifa will see Aerith again in the lifestream, and they're just fine with that. Yet when we first see Cloud in Advent Children, he's not only still depressed over her death, but now he's severed ties with all of his friends. To me, this is completely out of character for Cloud. Some people say that he's suffering from psychological trauma, but as I've already explained, he had already come to terms with her passing. Some say that it sticks with you for the rest of your life, but the movie itself proved otherwise when Cloud inexplicably overcame it like it was nothing shortly after Vincent showed up at the Forgotten City. There's no development either, one minute he's angsting over how he "can't save anyone" then the next he suddenly decides "ok I'm over it now lol". The only logical explanation is that the geostigma is messing with his head, but again Cloud is able to overcome his psychological trauma despite not having been cured yet, and is not affected in the slightest during the Bahamut SIN fight or the following motorcycle chase scene. I'd also like to point out that there isn't a single other character who suffers from psychological trauma despite going through experiences just as terrible as Cloud's, if not even worse. Tifa also lost her family and friends when Sephiroth massacred Nibelheim, why isn't she acting alone and distant too? Or how about Barret, when he lost everything after Shinra burned Old Corel to the ground, why isn't he acting depressed? Cloud watched his best friend die, while Barret had to kill his. All this does is make Cloud look whiny and self-centered compared to everyone else, which may have been the intention, but it still doesn't line up with the Cloud from the end of the game. It's just a contrived excuse for drama because lazy writers be lazy.

Next is Sephiroth surviving in the lifestream. At the end of the game, Cloud and co. destroy Sephiroth's physical body, but his consciousness survives in the lifestream. Cloud feels his presence there laughing, and his consciousness is pulled into the lifestream by Sephiroth into a final battle of wills. Cloud then proceeds to obliterate Sephiroth with an omnislash, and that's the last we see of him. Yet, somehow, he survived that. No explanation is ever given for how he's able to do that, he just does. He just hates Cloud so much that he's able to survive being completely destroyed just like that. It's not like how he was "killed" in the Nibelheim incident since they never actually found his body until the trip to the Northern Cave, we clearly see both his physical body and his consciousness be destroyed at the end of the game.

Then there is also Cloud fighting Kadaj/Sephiroth solo, which is supposed to symbolize him overcoming his grief and not feeling alone anymore, and I genuinely do not understand this. If the whole movie is about Cloud not feeling alone anymore, how his him fighting Sephiroth alone supposed to represent that?

Zack's "living legacy line" in the Complete edition is unnecessary and completely undermines Cloud's character arc from the game about establishing his own identity, putting him right back in Zack's shadow all for the sake of a Crisis Core reference.

There's also minor things like Rufus surviving the explosion by escaping through a secret tunnel that leads all the way to the top of Shinra HQ, Reno and Rude being reduced to a slapstick comedy duo completely unlike how they were portrayed in the game, most of our beloved heroes getting less screentime than Denzel etc.

So there you have it. Advent Children is a lazy, low-effort cashgrab that gets worse the more you think about it, and the sheer amount of inconsistencies is mind boggling seeing how the people who worked on it also worked on the game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think it's been established that Advent Children is a terrible movie

Pretty sure the fact it's Square's most popular, critical and widely successful animated film throws that premise out the window.

Yes, it's a fan film that's incomprehensible to anyone outside of it's fandom but that's literally an entire market of anime and CGI films that exists and is consumed for that purpose. Could they have told a different more accessible story? Of course. And they chose a different route and leaned in on its own apocrypha to delve deeper on the established elements from the game proper. A reunion for the fans, in essence.

I'll start with Cloud being emo for half of the movie. In the final cutscene to the game Cloud says "I think I'm beginning to understand...an answer from the planet...the Promised Land...I think I can meet her there." to which Tifa cheerfully agrees. When you take into context the true meaning of "the Promised Land" (in that it's actually referring to the Cetra's concept of the afterlife) Cloud is saying he can see her again in the afterlife, meaning that he's accepting that she's gone, but he'll see her again some day. It could be at the end of his lifespan, it could be right there and then in the collapsing Northern Cave, but the point is both Cloud and Tifa will see Aerith again in the lifestream, and they're just fine with that. Yet when we first see Cloud in Advent Children, he's not only still depressed over her death, but now he's severed ties with all of his friends. To me, this is completely out of character for Cloud. Some people say that he's suffering from psychological trauma, but as I've already explained, he had already come to terms with her passing. Some say that it sticks with you for the rest of your life, but the movie itself proved otherwise when Cloud inexplicably overcame it like it was nothing shortly after Vincent showed up at the Forgotten City. There's no development either, one minute he's angsting over how he "can't save anyone" then the next he suddenly decides "ok I'm over it now lol". The only logical explanation is that the geostigma is messing with his head, but again Cloud is able to overcome his psychological trauma despite not having been cured yet, and is not affected in the slightest during the Bahamut SIN fight or the following motorcycle chase scene. I'd also like to point out that there isn't a single other character who suffers from psychological trauma despite going through experiences just as terrible as Cloud's, if not even worse. Tifa also lost her family and friends when Sephiroth massacred Nibelheim, why isn't she acting alone and distant too? Or how about Barret, when he lost everything after Shinra burned Old Corel to the ground, why isn't he acting depressed? Cloud watched his best friend die, while Barret had to kill his. All this does is make Cloud look whiny and self-centered compared to everyone else, which may have been the intention, but it still doesn't line up with the Cloud from the end of the game. It's just a contrived excuse for drama because lazy writers be lazy.

...Imagine using emo as an insult in 2020 and as a way to describe Cloud...

I mean, are people with terminal cancer emo when they get depressed? Do I need to go into the stages of mortality grief that an individual faced with the prospect of death goes through, which includes exhibiting isolation and depression?

If you can parse and somehow go into this detailed, intricate examination of Cloud's mental state and understanding of "The Promised Land" regarding FFVII, I find it unfathomable you cannot understand the simple fact of Cloud being withdrawn over a combination of terminal illness and survivor's guilt. It's an absurd reduction and purposeful misrepresentation of the psychological scars and issues he was clearly demonstrated carrying from his past. Not only that, but it's also absurd to say that Cloud suffering weakness is "completely out of character." Cloud's an entire case study of weakness. His whole life has been weakness. Pushing away his friends is all that he did as an adolescent. He pushed Tifa away. He tried pushing Aerith away. He tried to show off as someone who could handle things on his own. His whole false persona is a reflection of the inadequacy and weakness within his character, which plays out as trying to be a solo showoff badass. If anything, Cloud trying to bear the burden of his pain alone is Cloud reverting back to his old habits from his earlier days as a teenager. FFVII, the story that takes place over the span of about a month, was an aberration of Cloud's coping skills, not the norm.

Cloud "inexplicably overcame" that pain and hopelessness through a combination of Tifa's tenacious affection, the need to save his family, and of course, a well-timed visit from his friends both outside from inside the Lifestream. A highly unique and specific, not to mention fantasy-esque situation.

Next is Sephiroth surviving in the lifestream. At the end of the game, Cloud and co. destroy Sephiroth's physical body, but his consciousness survives in the lifestream. Cloud feels his presence there laughing, and his consciousness is pulled into the lifestream by Sephiroth into a final battle of wills. Cloud then proceeds to obliterate Sephiroth with an omnislash, and that's the last we see of him. Yet, somehow, he survived that. No explanation is ever given for how he's able to do that, he just does. He just hates Cloud so much that he's able to survive being completely destroyed just like that. It's not like how he was "killed" in the Nibelheim incident since they never actually found his body until the trip to the Northern Cave, we clearly see both his physical body and his consciousness be destroyed at the end of the game.

I don't even understand how this is surprising. Sephiroth and Jenova are functionally immortal. There was absolutely no surprise in Sephiroth being capable of coming back to life. Yes, Sephiroth's will was shown to be vanquished by Cloud, but considering he's demonstrated surviving death, dilution by the Lifestream and and then the ability to return to life through the Reunion before, there's no reason to be surprised he'd be able to do it again. Sephiroth literally died in Nibelheim. Shinra didn't find a body because it was destroyed and eroded away in the Lifestream. Yet he came right back to life with a new body. An understanding of how spirit energy and the Lifestream works, makes the prospect of Sephiroth's will enduring past death to reach back into life more than understandable and explained. We see this concept happen in FFX. And FFIX. And even the original FFVII itself. The concepts showcased in AC are not unique or unheard of.

Then there is also Cloud fighting Kadaj/Sephiroth solo, which is supposed to symbolize him overcoming his grief and not feeling alone anymore, and I genuinely do not understand this. If the whole movie is about Cloud not feeling alone anymore, how his him fighting Sephiroth alone supposed to represent that?

...I honestly do not get why someone would have to explain why having two archenemies/rivals face off one-on-one in battle is a thing in Japanese anime/media. There's no way that's not understood on it's face. Are you somehow trying to imply that Cloud and Sephiroth don't have that specific relationship and rivalry that would warrant such a confrontation? Is that your overall criticism of it? Because if so, I would then ask you to rethink their entire dynamic, portrayal and the motivation of both characters. There's an absolutely clear reason, in terms of thematically, structurally, and meta-contextually for why they would have Cloud and Sephiroth clash swords one-on-one here. It's precisely because we've had the group of main characters fight Sephiroth before, that they decided to have Cloud fight Sephiroth alone in the most stylistic and modern fashion possible. The novelty alone warrants this. Given the fact that this movie focuses on Cloud, it only makes sense that it center on Cloud's greatest enemy and rival, and their inevitable conflict. It's a major part of Cloud's history and character. It simply comes with the territory. Sephiroth is Cloud's personal demon. The embodiment of his past and trauma, which he has to overcome to move on with the future. He does it alone physically, but not mentally or spiritually.

Zack's "living legacy line" in the Complete edition is unnecessary and completely undermines Cloud's character arc from the game about establishing his own identity, putting him right back in Zack's shadow all for the sake of a Crisis Core reference.

So Zack telling Cloud to stand up and beat the guy he beat once before is an undermining of Cloud's capability that affixes him under Zack's shadow? Huh? Zack admits how Cloud was able to do what he didn't, and beat Sephiroth. How is that an undermining of his ability? Especially when you just criticized the fact Cloud is trying to take on Sephiroth alone when the message of the film, is about Cloud not doing things alone when he has friends?

So there you have it. Advent Children is a lazy, low-effort cashgrab that gets worse the more you think about it, and the sheer amount of inconsistencies is mind boggling seeing how the people who worked on it also worked on the game.

This type of criticism never held up on it's face because "lazy cash grabs" do not entail developing, laboring, and creating cutting edge software and animation to do something completely outside the norms, conventions and expectations simply for, what is in essence, the fun of it. This is frankly an absurd and ignorant criticism on it's face. If Square wanted to cash grab a sequel for FFVII, they'd have developed a shitty asset reusing sequel game that took about a year to develop, put it on sale and been done with it. They would have pulled a Sega made a Sonic Forces for FFVII.

They wouldn't have spent the time, effort, and energy expanding their Visual Works Studio to learn CGI animation for films, hiring motion capture actors, and go through the work necessary to make film. They would have simply kept the short film at 20 minutes, marketed it, made a lot of cash given the labor and resources invested, and been done with it. They challenged themselves to take up this project and experiment with the medium. This is literally, the exact opposite of a "lazy, low-effort cashgrab" and trying to portray it as such only exposes a lack of knowledge and ignorance of just what it takes to make such a project.

Advent Children's issues exist and are mainly structural and reflective of the fact that these writers/developers were primarily directing and scripting with a video game in mind. The scene transitions can be abrupt, messy and confusing. It's indicative of how they sequence and scene build for a video game and mind, and kept those same principles for film, which ends up being messy. They're amateur mistakes, in essence. The film requires extensive knowledge of it's 40 hour RPG predecessor. It's a very fan-made film. These are very real critiques that exists but they are not indicative of a "lazy cash grab." They're structural, creative critiques. Not indictments of effort or intent. This is why it has such fans and has endured in popularity for so long. If it was a lazy cash grab, it wouldn't be so regarded, popular and a winner of film festival awards and accolades. It's truly bizarre that for all the energy and effort you spend trying to understand and delve into the minutiae of the OG, you somehow don't grasp or even try to engage in good faith with the film made by the same team of developers. If you can understand the convoluted dynamics and lore of the OG with it's messy translation from 1997, I don't get how it's hard to grasp a weak character being depressed over being terminal while also dealing with survivor guilt. That's the furthest thing from a reflection of...emo subculture from the early 2000s.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I should probably also mention that I have not read On The Way To A Smile or any other Final Fantasy novel, and don't plan on ever doing so, and if that invalidates what I have to say then so be it.

Well ...

Yet when we first see Cloud in Advent Children, he's not only still depressed over her death, but now he's severed ties with all of his friends. To me, this is completely out of character for Cloud. Some people say that he's suffering from psychological trauma, but as I've already explained, he had already come to terms with her passing. Some say that it sticks with you for the rest of your life, but the movie itself proved otherwise when Cloud inexplicably overcame it like it was nothing shortly after Vincent showed up at the Forgotten City.

So, I'll tell you what the therapist I saw for a few months told me a couple of years back. I was 31 at that point and had been just fine until the prior year or so.

I told her I had always been okay, and was strangely proud of how okay I was after all the reasons I had not to be. She pointed out, quite correctly, that just because you handle something doesn't mean it doesn't affect you; that you can be just fine until you're not just fine anymore. When that point comes is different for different people.

It's one of those observations that is painfully obvious once it's pointed out.

I'd also like to point out that there isn't a single other character who suffers from psychological trauma despite going through experiences just as terrible as Cloud's, if not even worse. Tifa also lost her family and friends when Sephiroth massacred Nibelheim, why isn't she acting alone and distant too? Or how about Barret, when he lost everything after Shinra burned Old Corel to the ground, why isn't he acting depressed? Cloud watched his best friend die, while Barret had to kill his. All this does is make Cloud look whiny and self-centered compared to everyone else ...

I don't normally offer personal remarks when discussing stuff like this, but I sincerely hope no one in this world looks to you for personal support and individual understanding. =/

 

[ExampleZ]

Pretty sure the fact it's Square's most popular, critical and widely successful animated film throws that premise out the window.

Oh wow, it's a better film than Spirits Within and Kingsglaive, now that's a high bar to overcome.

Yes, it's a fan film that's incomprehensible to anyone outside of it's fandom but that's literally an entire market of anime and CGI films that exists and is consumed for that purpose. Could they have told a different more accessible story? Of course. And they chose a different route and leaned in on its own apocrypha to delve deeper on the established elements from the game proper. A reunion for the fans, in essence.

Right, and I'm saying that as a fan, that there are too many things wrong with it that only a fan would notice.

...Imagine using emo as an insult in 2020 and as a way to describe Cloud...

I mean, are people with terminal cancer emo when they get depressed? Do I need to go into the stages of mortality grief that an individual faced with the prospect of death goes through, which includes exhibiting isolation and depression?

Okay, I admit that wasn't the best choice of word.

If you can parse and somehow go into this detailed, intricate examination of Cloud's mental state and understanding of "The Promised Land" regarding FFVII, I find it unfathomable you cannot understand the simple fact of Cloud being withdrawn over a combination of terminal illness and survivor's guilt. It's an absurd reduction and purposeful misrepresentation of the psychological scars and issues he was clearly demonstrated carrying from his past. Not only that, but it's also absurd to say that Cloud suffering weakness is "completely out of character." Cloud's an entire case study of weakness. His whole life has been weakness. Pushing away his friends is all that he did as an adolescent. He pushed Tifa away. He tried to show off as someone who could handle things on his own. His whole false persona is a reflection of the inadequacy and weakness within his character, which plays out as trying to be a solo showoff badass. If anything, Cloud trying to bear the burden of his pain alone is Cloud reverting back to his old habits from his earlier days as a teenager. FFVII, the story that takes place over the span of about a month, was an aberration of Cloud's coping skills, not the norm.

See this is what I'm talking about. He was only pushing everyone away before the start of the game and for the first hour or so of the game, until you meet Aeris for the first time. Then the cracks in his persona start to show and little by little the mask slips away until it is completely gone after Tifa helps restore his lost memories in the lifestream. You can see gradual, nuanced development in Cloud's character from the way he interacts with everyone he meets, and by the time we're ready to battle Sephiroth in the Northern Cave, we see that the Cloud saying "Now don't any of you die on me, gotta get through to Sephiroth!" is much different from the "I don't care about Shinra OR the planet!" Cloud from the beginning of the game. In fact, the only reason Cloud's consciousness was able to overcome Sephiroth's is BECAUSE he has grown as a character, disc 1 Cloud definitely would have lost that battle.

And then Advent Children goes and undoes all his development, putting him right back at square one.

He tried pushing Aerith away.

Now that's bullshit and you know it. At no point in the game did he ever try pushing Aerith away, the only time he left her was when Elmyra asked him to, and at the time he had more important things to do like regrouping with his comrades at AVALANCHE, unless you honestly expected him to drag a flower girl he just met all the way to the 7th Heaven.

Cloud "inexplicably overcame" that pain and hopelessness through a combination of Tifa's tenacious affection, the need to save his family, and of course, a well-timed visit from his friends both outside from inside the Lifestream. A highly unique and specific, not to mention fantasy-esque situation.

If that's all it took then he should have gotten over it long ago. But nope, all the way up to the Forgotten Capital he's moping about how he can't save anyone, then he hears Aerith's voice asking if he can forgive himself, and just like that he's over it.

I don't even understand how this is surprising. Sephiroth and Jenova are functionally immortal. There was absolutely no surprise in Sephiroth being capable of coming back to life. Yes, Sephiroth's will was shown to be vanquished by Cloud, but considering he's demonstrated surviving death, dilution by the Lifestream and and then the ability to return to life through the Reunion before, there's no reason to be surprised he'd be able to do it again. Sephiroth literally died in Nibelheim. Shinra didn't find a body because it was destroyed and eroded away in the Lifestream. Yet he came right back to life with a new body. An understanding of how spirit energy and the Lifestream works, makes the prospect of Sephiroth's will enduring past death to reach back into life more than understandable and explained. We see this concept happen in FFX. And FFIX. And even the original FFVII itself. The concepts showcased in AC are not unique or unheard of.

The key difference here being that in Nibelheim, Sephiroth's body may have eroded but his will survived intact in the lifestream. In the Northern Cave, we see both his physical form AND his will be destroyed. Then he just comes back anyway.

...I honestly do not get why someone would have to explain why having two archenemies/rivals face off one-on-one in battle is a thing in Japanese anime/media. There's no way that's not understood on it's face. Are you somehow trying to imply that Cloud and Sephiroth don't have that specific relationship and rivalry that would warrant such a confrontation? Is that your overall criticism of it? Because if so, I would then ask you to rethink their entire dynamic, portrayal and the motivation of both characters. There's an absolutely clear reason, in terms of thematically, structurally, and meta-contextually for why they would have Cloud and Sephiroth clash swords one-on-one here. It's precisely because we've had the group of main characters fight Sephiroth before, that they decided to have Cloud fight Sephiroth alone in the most stylistic and modern fashion possible. The novelty alone warrants this. Given the fact that this movie focuses on Cloud, it only makes sense that it center on Cloud's greatest enemy and rival, and their inevitable conflict. It's a major part of Cloud's history and character. It simply comes with the territory. Sephiroth is Cloud's personal demon. The embodiment of his past and trauma, which he has to overcome to move on with the future. He does it alone physically, but not mentally or spiritually.

They never had any kind of rivalry of any sort. Sephiroth was Cloud's idol, an unattainable goal that Cloud tried and failed to reach. Even in the Kalm flashback when Cloud was pretending he was in SOLDIER, he was still going on about how Sephiroth was so far out of his league. Yet Sephiroth didn't even know who he was. Even when you meet him (or rather Jenova) for the first time in the cargo ship, the first thing he says to Cloud is "Who are you?" And I agree that Cloud should overcome his personal demons to move on with the future, which is why it already happened at the end of the game.

So Zack telling Cloud to stand up and beat the guy he beat once before is an undermining of Cloud's capability that affixes him under Zack's shadow? Huh? Zack admits how Cloud was able to do what he didn't, and beat Sephiroth. How is that an undermining of his ability? Especially when you just criticized the fact Cloud is trying to take on Sephiroth alone when the message of the film, is about Cloud not doing things alone when he has friends?

No, Zack telling Cloud that he is his "living legacy" is what undermines his character arc. By this point, Cloud had long since surpassed the real 1st Class SOLDIER and had escaped being nothing more than Zack's "living legacy".

So, I'll tell you what the therapist I saw for a few months told me a couple of years back. I was 31 at that point and had been just fine until the prior year or so.

I told her I had always been okay, and was strangely proud of how okay I was after all the reasons I had not to be. She pointed out, quite correctly, that just because you handle something doesn't mean it doesn't affect you; that you can be just fine until you're not just fine anymore. When that point comes is different for different people.

It's one of those observations that is painfully obvious once it's pointed out.

I see. In that case take back what I said about Cloud still being depressed about Aerith's death being out of character, but I still think Advent Children handled it very poorly.

I don't normally offer personal remarks when discussing stuff like this, but I sincerely hope no one in this world looks to you for personal support and individual understanding. =/

My personal life is none of your business, and fuck you too.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yet Sephiroth didn't even know who he was. Even when you meet him (or rather Jenova) for the first time in the cargo ship, the first thing he says to Cloud is "Who are you?"

Because he was screwing with him, setting up the whole "What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion" mindfuck. Sephiroth spends half of the original game on a plot to emotionally and psychologically torture Cloud in revenge for the humiliation of getting killed by a nobody in the Mt. Nibel reactor.

I see. In that case take back what I said about Cloud still being depressed about Aerith's death being out of character, but I still think Advent Children handled it very poorly.

It could have certainly handled it better in terms of the overall presentation. I'm not a big fan of the way that story got split across the movie and the novella.

I'm glad that the greater contextualization exists, but at the very least, that novella segment of the story could have done with an OVA adaptation being included with the movie. That may have gone some ways towards reducing the uncharitable assessments of Cloud (and consequently, anyone who can relate to those sorts of issues) that have been rendered by edgelords over the years.

My personal life is none of your business, and fuck you too.

El oh el. You deigned of your own accord to share your views on how one person to the next should be processing trauma. How timely or effectively people overcome grief and illness, though, is not for you to judge as whiney.

In other words, it's probably "none of your business." =P

 

[Torrie]

No, Zack telling Cloud that he is his "living legacy" is what undermines his character arc. By this point, Cloud had long since surpassed the real 1st Class SOLDIER and had escaped being nothing more than Zack's "living legacy".

Oh, you must have missed the discussion I raised just a few days ago, about the exact same thing. People explained brilliantly what it actually means, and it made me feel so relieved, so I recommend you should take a look. To cut a long story short, The "living legacy" is basically Cloud getting a pass to life, inheriting high moral standards and Soldier's honour, taking up the baton of fighting for freedom. Zack most probably meant something like "I gave you my all; now it's your turn to be a hero", but the English wording makes it a bit confusing.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh wow, it's a better film than Spirits Within and Kingsglaive, now that's a high bar to overcome.

I mean on one hand, you're right it's not

But AC still is the most successful and lauded. That's just how it is. And it is rather interesting that the film Square released which does not try to follow the conventional film making structure, editing, let alone bother to be as accessible to the widest audience... Is the film that has the most appeal and popularity from the audience. It's almost as if entertainment ended up being far more important a factor than it trying to be a film that hewed to orthodoxy and structure.

Right, and I'm saying that as a fan, that there are too many things wrong with it that only a fan would notice.

Interesting.

See this is what I'm talking about. He was only pushing everyone away before the start of the game and for the first hour or so of the game, until you meet Aeris for the first time. Then the cracks in his persona start to show and little by little the mask slips away until it is completely gone after Tifa helps restore his lost memories in the lifestream. You can see gradual, nuanced development in Cloud's character from the way he interacts with everyone he meets, and by the time we're ready to battle Sephiroth in the Northern Cave, we see that the Cloud saying "Now don't any of you die on me, gotta get through to Sephiroth!" is much different from the "I don't care about Shinra OR the planet!" Cloud from the beginning of the game. In fact, the only reason Cloud's consciousness was able to overcome Sephiroth's is BECAUSE he has grown as a character, disc 1 Cloud definitely would have lost that battle.

And then Advent Children goes and undoes all his development, putting him right back at square one.

This is the most common criticism of Cloud's character from people who criticize him in AC say, and it's become... really tiring, breaking down the fallacious judgment and thinking that premises this evaluation. Since you're criticizing AC from a perspective of it being in line with the lore and storyline of the game, I'm gonna focus on that angle.

While you are correct over the fact that Cloud was a loner at the start of FFVII, you're isolating that aspect of Cloud's character from the wider context of his life. Cloud was a loner not just at the beginning of FFVII, he was a loner for a lot of his adolescent and young adult years too. Think back to the flashback from his memory that Tifa experienced in delving into Cloud's consciousness in the Lifestream. Cloud purposefully pushed the kids away and tried to act better than them, when in reality he wanted friends. He wanted to be strong. He was constantly coming off with a chip on his shoulder. Because of Cloud's insecurity and sensitivity, he wanted to appear strong. When confronted with weakness and pain, Cloud withdrew. This is the most fundamental weakness and manifestation of Cloud's insecurity he has. Cloud's development and growth in FFVII is thanks to his acceptance of that weakness and having his friends by him. He rises to the occasion and grows.

But here's the thing. Growth isn't a linear process. Change isn't always positive. The whole point of Cloud post FFVII, is his confrontation with the reality and hardship of being a human and sharing his life with others. You've seen ACC, so Cloud's explanation of why he felt and did what he did to Marlene perfectly summates the situation entirely, and why he comes to realize he was wrong. Since you've gone this deep into criticizing how Cloud reacts to the trauma, pain, and despair of death, I will say that reading On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa would at the very least, offer you a better understanding of the overall motivation and issues that developed in regard to Cloud's life post FFVII. I'm not saying you have to read it, since ACC ultimately explains Cloud's conflict and struggle with happiness, but it delves into the details of why Cloud's life post-FFVII didn't unfold neatly as a happily-ever-after ending.

And that's what AC ultimately challenges, which some people seem to have a problem with. People expected Cloud's personal issues and struggles to neatly reconcile at the end of FFVII, with Cloud being this perfectly heroic badass who endured his struggles, overcame his pain, and was finally able to move past the trauma that were the last 7 years of his life so he could just have a happy ending. But what AC did was flip that on it's head and show that no, pain and trauma doesn't just neatly resolve. Those scars take time to heal, and by examining Cloud again post FFVII, they showcased that. Cloud having his friends to help were a large part of that healing, and that's the entire premise of AC. When you fall, you have those who care about you, pick you right up. Because recovering and healing isn't a linear process. Sometimes it goes well, and then like Cloud, sometimes you stumble and need help. That's human.

Now that's bullshit and you know it. At no point in the game did he ever try pushing Aerith away, the only time he left her was when Elmyra asked him to, and at the time he had more important things to do like regrouping with his comrades at AVALANCHE, unless you honestly expected him to drag a flower girl he just met all the way to the 7th Heaven.

Aerith
Well, that's... nice.
Let's see, Sector 7? I'll show you the way.

Cloud
You gotta be kidding. Why do you want to put yourself in danger again?

Aeris
I'm used to it.

Cloud
Used to it!?
......Well, don't know... getting help from a girl...

Cloud
How could I ask you to go along when I knew it would be dangerous?

Aerith
Are you done?

And then there are the subsequent examples from the Remake in chapters 8, 9, etc etc. Cloud when he first meets Aerith does try to push her away. Aerith's relentless interest and desire to stay by his side is what overcomes Cloud's impulse here.

If that's all it took then he should have gotten over it long ago. But nope, all the way up to the Forgotten Capital he's moping about how he can't save anyone, then he hears Aerith's voice asking if he can forgive himself, and just like that he's over it.

This is astoundingly simplistic, insensitive and not in line with even a surface level understanding of grief, depression and guilt. No one determines how long someone takes to "get over" the death of friends, especially when coupled with a terminal illness. Again, I really don't understand how one can have such an understanding of the almost philosophical significance of what the "Promised Land" means in FFVII, but can't wrap their head around a character suffering from actual real-life equivalent pain and loss. Grief. Terminal illness. I don't get why you're refusing to at least understand the basic premise of the presentation here.

At best one could perhaps criticize the pacing and unfolding of the familial conflict and angst that is presented within the film's structure but you're not even doing that. You're attacking the ultimate premise of Cloud not being perfect or normal. His failure of pulling himself up by his boostraps. I honestly do not know what else to tell you other than it's an astoundingly insensitive read of the situation which I feel you're doing just out of an irrational dislike of the film.

I don't like Shinji Ikari much in the original 90s iteration of Neon Genesis: Evangelion, however I wouldn't dare say that he's simply a whiny cry baby for no reason given the traumatic, horrible and callous upbringing he suffered from Gendo, coupled with the overwhelming burden and isolation he suffers from being tasked with saving the world. He has to put his life on the line and face death piloting a giant mech, and that responsibility is thrust upon him without his consent. That type of pain, misery and burden would make any normal child snap. He's human. I may dislike how he lashes out and deals with his pain, but I wouldn't somehow indict that pain and suffering he goes through just because I don't like him for certain things. I'm not insensitively reading the character and misunderstanding the presentation.

The key difference here being that in Nibelheim, Sephiroth's body may have eroded but his will survived intact in the lifestream. In the Northern Cave, we see both his physical form AND his will be destroyed. Then he just comes back anyway.

We see a representation of Sephiroth's spirit be defeated by Cloud in the Lifestream. We also see it disperse in spirit energy upon it's defeat. Who's to say that energy would not be able to coalesce and restore itself like it did last time? Again. Sephiroth and Jenova are functionally immortal. If Sephiroth has been shown capable of surmounting the ultimate end of death once, why would it be outside the bounds of expectation to see him do it again?

It's like being surprised by Dracula returning to life in Castlevania. Are you for real?

They never had any kind of rivalry of any sort. Sephiroth was Cloud's idol, an unattainable goal that Cloud tried and failed to reach. Even in the Kalm flashback when Cloud was pretending he was in SOLDIER, he was still going on about how Sephiroth was so far out of his league. Yet Sephiroth didn't even know who he was. Even when you meet him (or rather Jenova) for the first time in the cargo ship, the first thing he says to Cloud is "Who are you?" And I agree that Cloud should overcome his personal demons to move on with the future, which is why it already happened at the end of the game.

That's a hot take right there, I'll say that much.

Yes... Yes they do have a rivalry. Of course not at the time Cloud is an Infantryman within the Shinra military. But when Cloud impaled Sephiroth with the Buster Sword and then tossed Sephiroth into the mako pit after being impaled by Sephiroth's Masamune, Sephiroth never accepted that loss and felt an unyielding hatred over what he endured. The entire spectacle of the chase for the Black Materia and having Cloud be the one to hand it over, is an elaborate "Fuck you" from Sephiroth to Cloud. Sephiroth could have acquired that materia easily utilizing any number of Copies and Jenova but he wanted Cloud to do it.

He took sadistic pleasure in lying to Cloud about his identity and breaking his mind. He chose to call out to Cloud and challenge him to a one-on-one duel in the Lifestream.

If you cannot see that as an ultimate rivalry and grudge between the two, I'm not sure what FFVII you were playing, man.

Sephiroth was lying to Cloud when he asked him who he was on the Cargo Ship. I am gobsmacked at how many people still misread that scene to this day. Sephiroth was fucking with Cloud's head and trying to embarrass him in front of the party, by calling into question Cloud's relationship and knowledge of him. Sephiroth knew who he was, how could he not? Cloud is the man who killed him.

No, Zack telling Cloud that he is his "living legacy" is what undermines his character arc. By this point, Cloud had long since surpassed the real 1st Class SOLDIER and had escaped being nothing more than Zack's "living legacy".

Him being a living legacy of Zack doesn't imply Cloud is in his shadow. You've apparently misinterpreted and twisted the entire point of that message. Cloud being the living legacy of a friend is a reference to Cloud carrying on his dreams and hope for the future. Carrying on the legacy of the sword he carries and moving forward in the future. I really don't understand how you can indict a movie so harshly for things you apparently didn't even fully pay attention to. Zack clearly wants Cloud to live his own life and be happy. He wants Cloud to win and move on with life. Not be a copy of him. I don't understand how such a bad faith reading could be extrapolated from someone as positive, selfless and just so surface heroic like Zack. You really thought Zack wanted Cloud to be nothing more than his copycat? Really?

I see. In that case take back what I said about Cloud still being depressed about Aerith's death being out of character, but I still think Advent Children handled it very poorly.

I mean, at the very least I'm glad you admit that much.

 

[kathy202]

I must admit that I liked Cloud a lot less after AC, though that's more to do with the way I interpreted the character in my early teens vs. in my late teens. The graphical upgrades help too, being able to see facial expressions and what not. Though I suppose that explains what AC did right, not what it did wrong.

 

[Torrie]

Since it's a rant thread, I think I'm going to use it to express some annoyance too.

I couldn't stop talking about FFVII, so my friend has eventually got interested in the characters and their dramas and agreed to watch ACC with me. But the problem is that she doesn't speak English very well, so we'll have to watch it with subtitles. And as I figured, perfect Russian subtitles simply don't exist There are a few popular translations, which can be found on numerous torrent trackers and subtitle libraries, but literally each of them has something to be blamed for, especially when it comes to some key scenes (e.g. the ridiculous Adjit vs. hideout, the infamous zuru zuru, the long-suffering 'I'm the proof that you existed', and many others).

I wonder if I end up translating ACC anew on my own and uploading the subs whenever possible for the Russian-speaking audience, because it really drives me insane.

 

[Wol]

AC is an interesting movie, despite the bland plot everything else is kinda unique and solid to watch/hear.

I like the melancholy and bleak mood, OST is great, the world of FFVII is faithfully recreated, and the battles choreography is out if this world.

There's no other movie like AC.

 

[Master Bates]

This movie is mostly eye candy to me, but I still thoroughly enjoyed it because back when I first watched it (I was still a teenager then) I had a blast trying to spot game references, especially the characters' limit breaks and attacks; and of course, I wanted to see some summons (I only got one, but was still pretty hyped). So I was really puzzled when I searched the interwebs to see if others saw what I saw then found some peeps arguing about the [romantic] significance of Aerith's hand-reach scene, while I was there thinking with a frown "but I thought she was casting her Fury Brand on Cloud". I was also very confused how Cloud was able to reach the Forgotten Capital within a day with Fenrir because I swear it took me a long time to get there when I played the game. And I sure as hell rode a boat. But hey, there's an awesome fight scene so we cool.

Gotta admit, though, I mostly just turned my brain off the first time I watched it. Upon rewatch and paying attention to the plot and character dialogues and motives, I didn't find it quite satisfactory in that regard. But fight scenes were still highly enjoyable, imo.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This movie is mostly eye candy to me, but I still thoroughly enjoyed it because back when I first watched it (I was still a teenager then) I had a blast trying to spot game references, especially the characters' limit breaks and attacks; and of course, I wanted to see some summons (I only got one, but was still pretty hyped). So I was really puzzled when I searched the interwebs to see if others saw what I saw then found some peeps arguing about the [romantic] significance of Aerith's hand-reach scene, while I was there thinking with a frown "but I thought she was casting her Fury Brand on Cloud". I was also very confused how Cloud was able to reach the Forgotten Capital within a day with Fenrir because I swear it took me a long time to get there when I played the game. And I sure as hell rode a boat. But hey, there's an awesome fight scene so we cool.

Gotta admit, though, I mostly just turned my brain off the first time I watched it. Upon rewatch and paying attention to the plot and character dialogues and motives, I didn't find it quite satisfactory in that regard. But fight scenes were still highly enjoyable, imo.

This sorta gets mentioned in the OTWTS stories, but ferries and regular shipments happen to the other continent thanks to the efforts of the WRO and Shinra. I wouldn't be surprised if Shinra essentially gave Cloud a lift to get there as soon as possible since the Turks regularly go back and forth trying to ferry shipments of their wonder drug to treat Geostigma and the like.

And Aerith obviously did something to Cloud, given the healing/magic energy that transferred with that hand grasp. I think there was clear significance, given it's focus. It probably helped heal the pain Cloud was going through since he literally flew head first into a Peta Flare.

 

[Master Bates]

This sorta gets mentioned in the OTWTS stories, but ferries and regular shipments happen to the other continent thanks to the efforts of the WRO and Shinra. I wouldn't be surprised if Shinra essentially gave Cloud a lift to get there as soon as possible since the Turks regularly go back and forth trying to ferry shipments of their wonder drug to treat Geostigma and the like.

And Aerith obviously did something to Cloud, given the healing/magic energy that transferred with that hand grasp. I think there was clear significance, given it's focus. It probably helped heal the pain Cloud was going through since he literally flew head first into a Peta Flare.

Cool. I didn't know about that detail when I first watched it, so I just chalked it up to time constraints lol.

Oh, Aerith obviously did. I was just saying that my first impression when I saw that scene was she was casting Fury Brand on Cloud because right after that Cloud used Climhazzard to finish off Bahamut Sin. But shortly prior to that, Cloud just recently used a limit break attack iirc (Braver, I think? I don't really remember because it's been ages since I've seen that movie but I'm pretty sure he used a limit break attack), and then I saw Cloud used Climhazzard and my brain thought "no way Cloud's limit break bar filled that fast; he didn't even take much damage after the last limit break! Aerith definitely casted FB!" lol yeah, that was mainly my thought process back then.

 

[Odysseus]

The thing that would have made the movie for me is, as Cloud is going through Bahamut's attack, a little "0" popped up.

 

[Fade]

no way Cloud's limit break bar filled that fast; he didn't even take much damage after the last limit break!

I'm going to stray way over the "reading into things" line with this observation, but the Remake's approach to abilities actually fits better with how "Limit Breaks" are portrayed in AC. Remake elevates what I'm going to arbitrarily call the Resting Energy Level of VII's world by granting the characters the ability to use job-style abilities on demand, a la FFIX or X. Obviously, in the OG they were dependant on materia and Limit Breaks to achieve the same effect.

AC kind of implies that Cloud's REL has increased to the point he can use Limit Breaks almost on demand, but the Remake bakes in the idea that pseudo-magical abilities like those are accessible even without relying on materia and Limits. It's a subtle little shift of the setting--which, among other things, feels like it narrows the gap between the humans and the Ancients. By doing so, it also moves Remake a little out of the relatively low-magic company VII shared with VI and VIII, in which using magic-style skills relied on either a prop (magicite, GF, materia) or literally breaking the limits of the setting via Limit Breaks.

Does this matter to anything? Not really. But I thought it was interesting.