Crisis Core....Am I supposed to hate Zack?

[Rydeen]

While I agree with most of these criticisms of Zack's writing, when I actually played the game, the other characters were so unbelievably poorly written (at least in English) that I found myself sympathizing with him and his confusion at the other characters’ actions.

 

[Odysseus]

Crisis Core would have been 1000% better if Zack was a completely normal guy who was really confused and annoyed with all the anime drama and posturing happening around him at all times. Genesis start's reading a poem and Zack rolls his eyes and starts texting his bro Kunsel while he waits for Gackt to shut up.

 

[Rydeen]

Crisis Core would have been 1000% better if Zack was a completely normal guy who was really confused and annoyed with all the anime drama and posturing happening around him at all times. Genesis start's reading a poem and Zack rolls his eyes and starts texting his bro Kunsel while he waits for Gackt to shut up.

Every time he was frustrated and confused with the plot, I was like me too, bruh. Me too. He took them more seriously than they deserved.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Crisis Core makes so much more sense in Japanese it's... a bit crazy how bad a lot of the English VA work is. A lot of the characters don't deliver their lines in ways that match what the actual lines mean or how the character arcs actually work out.

Zack's English VA is... really the only decent one. Everyone else... blah... give me the JP voices and the story is much less awkward to watch.

 

[Odysseus]

Crisis Core makes so much more sense in Japanese it's... a bit crazy how bad a lot of the English VA work is. A lot of the characters don't deliver their lines in ways that match what the actual lines mean or how the character arcs actually work out.

Zack's English VA is... really the only decent one. Everyone else... blah... give me the JP voices and the story is much less awkward to watch.

The best way I could ever think to describe CCs English script and acting was "flowery." The word choices and phrasing are strange, the way lines are delivered are strange, Genesis' accent is weird... I dunno, it just has this self-important vibe to it that I don't care for. I was afraid that the Remake would be the same way, but thankfully outside of a few parts it was the complete opposite.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I think that one of the interesting things is that I think that a lot of people look at game protagonists within a story as if those individuals know that they're in the role of the game's protagonist, and they're not just another meaningless individual in the grand scheme of things. While you might spend endless hours leveling up to become the world's most unstoppable badass, they don't.

Even when you get evidence that the conflicts you're in aren't all black & white, actually getting yourself into a position where you really truly recognize that your side isn't the good one isn't an instant revelation when you see something off, it's a growing process. If you've been wrong about those things for so long, how do you know that your new change of perspective is the right one? On top of that, when you're faced with an all-encompassing fascist military corporation that's literally repelling armies of clones while running media control on public opinion, THEN it becomes who (if anyone) you can even trust as self-preservation keeps you in a state of not knowing how to cope.

Do you try to do any small bits of good that you can while being amongst the bad? Do you just try and leave, knowing that if anyone suspects why you'll probably end up dead? Do you try to convince people who are close to join you or will that get you & them killed? Do you try and stand up, or will that just get make the retaliation against anyone else even more strict? Do you try to stand up as a symbol of hope, only to die as an example that even the best are helpless against the system of oppression?



You see this depicted really well in small bits with Reeve & Tseng in Remake. I've really liked their scenes because of how it covers a lot of the psychological struggles of being in the position of someone who gets into a position of understanding the terrible things Shinra does and how they try (and fail) to cope with them or help others cope with them. Zack's obviously got a different mindset and coping tactics than either of them, but I think it's worth considering that side of things (along with Crisis Core's VA, translation, & whatnot).




X

 

[Torrie]

Crisis Core makes so much more sense in Japanese it's... a bit crazy how bad a lot of the English VA work is. A lot of the characters don't deliver their lines in ways that match what the actual lines mean or how the character arcs actually work out.

I found the English dub really weird. Hard to explain, but I couldn't get rid of the feeling that things just shouldn't sound the way they do, it's just not right. So I opted for a copy with Japanese voices but English subs and everything else, and never regretted that. Since the Remake came out, I've seen a lot of hatred towards Zack's new English VA, but what people don't seem to notice is how similar he actually is to his Japanese counterpart.

 

[Rydeen]

I think "stilted" is the right word to describe English Crisis Core. Kind of makes me want to play it in Japanese, but I don't think a direct translation is available.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's Kingdom Hearts quality dialogue scripting. Or to be more frank, it's pretty corny in some places. That coupled with its limited model movements make it feel very far removed from reality. Compare it to the Remake and it becomes easily apparent.

It's like watching an old anime dub from the early 90s versus today. That has its charm points at times. But that's the reality. Square's dub work has evolved massively since then.

 

[Clement Rage]

quote]I feel like it was much earlier than that. Banora and the cover-ups, the experiments on Angeal and Genesis, etc. And unlike most people being fed Shin-Ra's propaganda, Zack was able to actually meet some Wutai warriors and hear straight from them why they weren't cooperating with the company. [/quote]

And who did that? Hollander, the rogue scientist Shinra is trying to hunt down. Shinra bombs an empty village filled with nothing but monsters. He did meet Wutai warriors, but had very limited conversations, they just asked him why he was fighting, it's not like they elaborated on Shinra's failings.

We will never know because Zack didn't care enough about his "friend" to report anything to HQ. His laziness regarding paperwork is canon and everything.

So should he trust his bosses or not? You seem to be arguing that he should have rejected them long ago, but also that he should be diligent in reporting his friends. He's just found out that his bosses make materia people in those pods, some hesitation is warranted. He doesn't know this will end in murderous rage yet, he can't take that into account until it happens.

She lies to Tseng and gives Zack her damn bike to help him escape. That's why he spares her, because she still favors him. She's useful to him and they used to be friends, so I guess that counts too.

This is working backwards again. At the start of that conversation, she attacks him. He can't make decisions based on things that haven't happened yet.

He fancies her, that's why.

Probably true, which is sad. 'Kill them all except the hot one'.

My problem with Zack isn't so much the character himself but rather how he's somehow singlehandedly responsible for 90% of the lore in FF7. Aerith's hair ribbon? Aerith selling flowes? Tifa's bar? Yuffie becoming a skilled thief? You can thank Zack for all of the above, and more. I'm sure Nojima and co. didn't mean it to be anything more than just some "remember this, remember that" moments but they actually do kind of detract from the lore and characters, especially with Yuffie, who originally trained herself to become a master materia thief but in Crisis Core it was all Zack lol.

Yup. BC is even worse for this.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think "stilted" is the right word to describe English Crisis Core. Kind of makes me want to play it in Japanese, but I don't think a direct translation is available.

There is a fan-made translation of CC by Chocolinx (SilentTweak). It's a tad different from the official translations and there's definetly some bits of it I like a lot better than the Official English Translations. You can find SilentTweek's translations here: https://www.silenttweak.net/index.php?file=cc/cctranslations

There's been a few Japanese cutscene movies of CC made using those English Translations. And I really do recommend people give them a watch-through if just to see how different the VA work was. The highest quality video I've found is this one:

One of the best (and easiest) places to see the difference is in the Junon Canon Fight

English Version

Japanese Verison

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've seen a lot of hatred towards Zack's new English VA, but what people don't seem to notice is how similar he actually is to his Japanese counterpart.

It's true, he always sounded like overly-split ass in Japanese too.

 

[Odysseus]

Here's a question. Did they re-record the Zack scene in Japanese, or is it reused from crisis core barring the new lines?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

It's Kingdom Hearts quality dialogue scripting. Or to be more frank, it's pretty corny in some places. That coupled with its limited model movements make it feel very far removed from reality. Compare it to the Remake and it becomes easily apparent. It's like watching an old anime dub from the early 90s versus today. That has its charm points at times. But that's the reality. Square's dub work has evolved massively since then.

That anime dub comment is SO accurate. Especially after playing Remake, when I was watching scenes from Advent Children & Crisis Core again – even when it's good it's... pretty rough to listen to by comparison. It definitely feels like everything said are lines being delivered with appropriate emotion, but they're very rarely something that feels natural.

One of the things that they've really nailed since is starting to make their dialogue sound like it's something that people would actually say, like they really nailed in Final Fantasy XV. Characters sound less like weird anime dubs & more like actual humans largely because of the differences in writing for a "voiceover'd text-box scene interaction between characters to deliver exposition to the player" is now something where you're writing more like "a film scene with actors doing performances" where you HAVE to think about the little nuances as much as the words themselves. Another big part of that is really linked to the budget for localization efforts also improving the attention paid to those things, and just having a bigger & more experienced industry around that type of work.

Here's a question. Did they re-record the Zack scene in Japanese, or is it reused from crisis core barring the new lines?

I think that there's basically a 0% chance that they just copied the audio from Crisis Core just because of the fact that new lines exist. It's gonna be way more work to find someone who go into the old Crisis Core stuff and dig around to see there's a copy of the original raw audio at the same fidelity & format as the rest of the dialogue, and then have payroll people make sure that you compensate the party correctly for old work, than to just have the person you're currently paying to speak lines just speak those lines again if needed.




X

 

[Odysseus]

I figured that was most likely the case, but it would have been neat.

 

[Torrie]

Here's a question. Did they re-record the Zack scene in Japanese, or is it reused from crisis core barring the new lines?

I think that there's basically a 0% chance that they just copied the audio from Crisis Core just because of the fact that new lines exist.

I sat down with two videos this morning and literally watched/listened bit by bit. The Remake delivery sounds almost identical, but the audio is mixed with the background music in a different way and <insert some more audio engineering terms which I sadly don't know>. So yeah, I have to agree with X here. It's much more reasonable to ask the VA to do the same job than to get all worked up about tailoring the 13 y.o. tracks to the rest of the production.

 

[Torrie]

I'm not done with this thread yet.

I totally forgot to bring up one hella cringeworthy issue. I love Zakkura package deal to the moon and back, but if don't find peace with this, it will keep bothering me forever. It's the entire "You're my living legacy" thing. Do I misunderstand something culture- or language-wise? Am I supposed to hate Zack for pulling a complete 180 from an admirable hero to an arrogant dick?

First, let's look up the word "legacy" in various dictionaries.

Macmillan Dictionary:
- something such as a tradition or problem that exists as a result of something that happened in the past
- something that someone has achieved that continues to exist after they stop working or die

Cambridge Dictionary:
- money or property that you receive from someone after they die
- something that is a part of your history or that remains from an earlier time
- a situation that has developed as a result of past actions and decisions

Collins Dictionary:
- money or property which someone leaves to you when they die
- an event or period of history is something which is a direct result of it and which continues to exist after it is over

Merriam-Webster:
- a gift by will especially of money or other personal property
- something transmitted by or received from an ancestor or predecessor or from the past
- of, relating to, associated with, or carried over from an earlier time, technology, business, etc

Although the contextual examples in the aforementioned dictionaries are pretty convincing, I still don't quite feel this word, either because I'm not a native speaker, or because the CC official translation sucks materia orbs. The definitions give me an impression that Cloud being a legacy is something that Zack owned, or created, or achieved, or directly influenced. I doubt he meant any of that on his deathbed!

I'm fine with his passing the Buster sword like the proverbial baton, together with his honour and dreams, because he didn't need them anymore. But I wouldn't have any problem if he'd just said "You have outlived me" or "Keep on living", because it's straight to the point, or "My path ends here, but yours has just begun" or "Remember me", because it's sentimental.

By calling Cloud his legacy Zack basically burdened him with the promise to live both of their lives from now on instead of trying to find the joy of his own life. If I had to choose between two circulating translations "You're my living legacy" and "You're the proof that I existed", the latter sounds to me a bit better, but only just. From Cloud's perspective, "I'm the proof that you existed" a.k.a. "I'm the evidence of your life" sounds more validating for his personality than being a mere part of someone else's history. But still, remember when Zack appeared to lift Cloud's spirit in AC/C?

"You kicked his ass once, right? It's a piece of cake!"
"Right."
"Don't you ever forget again..."
"...that I'm the proof that you once existed."

"Don't forget that you are actually nobody and you're living this life for me, because I can't" - I immediately interpreted it like that. Is it a special Japanese way of keeping dear ones alive by keeping the memories about them alive? After all, Cloud's memory of Sephiroth brings our one-winged angel back eventually, too. Or is Zack really a narcissistic cannibal? Or am I digging and clinging to words too much? TLS, I need your help and your thoughts on that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't claim to be an expert, but the impression I gained was that Zack was passing on to Cloud what he had received from Angeal: the notion of the importance of dreams and honour. Not necessarily Zack's own dreams and honour: his dreams were fulfilled and his honour was satisfied when he died saving Cloud's life and thus became an unsung hero. What he's leaving to Cloud is Angeal's buster sword and the obligations associated with it. If Zack can inspire Cloud to do the right thing in the same way that Angeal inspired Zack to do the right thing*, then he'll have passed on something worthwhile. That's his legacy, the thing he gives to Cloud.

Just for me personally, I think, that if you're on the point of dying young and in a brutal fashion, not long after coming to the realisation that you have more or less wasted your life defending a rapacious corporation that doesn't give two shits about you - if that's your situation as you're breathing your last, the knowledge that someone is alive because of you must be a comfort. Everything else Zack did was a dead end and/or meaningless, but the fact that he kept Cloud alive really counts for something. He could so easily have dumped Cloud and saved himself, but he didn't, and because he didn't, the whole world was saved. I think he's entitled to stake his claim.

* I'm not arguing that Zack objectively did the right thing, but rather that the game insists he did the right thing.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not done with this thread yet.

I totally forgot to bring up one hella cringeworthy issue. I love Zakkura package deal to the moon and back, but if don't find peace with this, it will keep bothering me forever. It's the entire "You're my living legacy" thing. Do I misunderstand something culture- or language-wise? Am I supposed to hate Zack for pulling a complete 180 from an admirable hero to an arrogant dick?

First, let's look up the word "legacy" in various dictionaries.







Although the contextual examples in the aforementioned dictionaries are pretty convincing, I still don't quite feel this word, either because I'm not a native speaker, or because the CC official translation sucks materia orbs. The definitions give me an impression that Cloud being a legacy is something that Zack owned, or created, or achieved, or directly influenced. I doubt he meant any of that on his deathbed!

I'm fine with his passing the Buster sword like the proverbial baton, together with his honour and dreams, because he didn't need them anymore. But I wouldn't have any problem if he'd just said "You have outlived me" or "Keep on living", because it's straight to the point, or "My path ends here, but yours has just begun" or "Remember me", because it's sentimental.

By calling Cloud his legacy Zack basically burdened him with the promise to live both of their lives from now on instead of trying to find the joy of his own life. If I had to choose between two circulating translations "You're my living legacy" and "You're the proof that I existed", the latter sounds to me a bit better, but only just. From Cloud's perspective, "I'm the proof that you existed" a.k.a. "I'm the evidence of your life" sounds more validating for his personality than being a mere part of someone else's history. But still, remember when Zack appeared to lift Cloud's spirit in AC/C?
"Don't forget that you are actually nobody and you're living this life for me, because I can't" - I immediately interpreted it like that. Is it a special Japanese way of keeping dear ones alive by keeping the memories about them alive? After all, Cloud's memory of Sephiroth brings our one-winged angel back eventually, too. Or is Zack really a narcissistic cannibal? Or am I digging and clinging to words too much? TLS, I need your help and your thoughts on that.

...I really don't get how people reach these conclusions on Crisis Core. Like, you have to literally inject bad faith into the character(s) to reach these 180 conclusions on their motivations.

A legacy is just what the Merriam Webster Dictionary defines. Zack was dying. Like, all he wants to do is just pass on and leave something behind for his friend. It's not that complicated or even close to...selfishly immoral? That's just so completely removed from the ultimate humanity of the situation. Just the basic situation on it's face.

He just met the same pitiful and tragic end most SOLDIERs do. He fought for his freedom and paid with his life. Zack didn't want to be forgotten just as any mortal human wouldn't want. He wanted to pass something, anything, to Cloud so he'd remember him, and in turn give him some sort of help on his continued journey for freedom. Because he'd be dead and unable to help him as a corpse.

Think back to the truck scene. Zack's hopes and dreams of a future where they'd have freedom and happiness as mercenary bros working together could no longer happen. That dream and hope for freedom and happiness was dead for Zack. So the next best thing, was passing it on to Cloud and giving him what he could. Like, Zack's most prized possession... The embodiment of his honor as a SOLDIER... The one material possession Zack treasured above all other things...The sword that cost a family their entire savings to create, which cost the poor old father his life from work exhaustion.... That became Cloud's sword. That shows just how much he wanted Cloud to be okay and live on. It was a promise and hope, like... "You better not die, because you're not just living for yourself, I want you to live for me too! I want you to be happy and live a long and fulfilling life for the two of us because you're my friend and important to me!"

I don't understand how one reads passing on one's most prized, and cherished possession or gift as a "burden." Lol, that's like saying someone passing on their fortune to a loved one on their death bed is a "burden." Or it's too much of a "burden" to be there for a dying friend until they close their eyes, so they don't die alone. That doesn't make any sense. Oh, and be aware of the fact that Zack does not know about the intricacies or details of Jenova cells. He is completely unaware of the fact that the Jenova cells in Cloud's mind are copying and implanting Zack's recollections and stuff into Cloud's head to give him a false personality. All that happened in that moment, was a friend passing on his hopes and dreams for a happy life to his friend as he died. There's.. Nothing that complicated in that scene. It's just the humanity of it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Exactly. Zack believes the things he's passing on to Cloud are things worth having, things anyone would want to have. He's "finding something worth saving from the wreckage" as Rufus might put it.

 

[Torrie]

Guys, you are the best. Seriously, I'm very relieved. I really didn't want to think ill of him, hence the question.

...I really don't get how people reach these conclusions on Crisis Core. Like, you have to literally inject bad faith into the character(s) to reach these 180 conclusions on their motivations.

I don't know either, lol. I may not be particularly good at analyzing things with all aspects concerned, but I'm still learning. Not that I'm trying to justify myself, but sometimes one just gets fixated on a twisted idea and needs to see a bigger picture.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The game is often not well-written, but I think you have to take it as it presents itself. Zack is supposed to be a hero. They might not have done the best job of portraying it, but that's still how we're meant to see him.

 

[Rydeen]

I felt that the line was intended, in the context of the actual scene it’s in (rather than posthumously) to be interpreted as the heroic words of a dying man. Although not Zack’s intention (though I could definitely argue that this was writer intent), I see the line as a major impetus for Cloud’s mistaken identity. He’s fragile and takes it literally. Even in ACC, Cloud mentions how he’d live for both. That dying wish really fucked with the dude’s head.

 

[Odysseus]

The game is often not well-written, but I think you have to take it as it presents itself. Zack is supposed to be a hero. They might not have done the best job of portraying it, but that's still how we're meant to see him.

That's true, but how we're "meant" to see him isn't how we have to see him. The story presents him as a heroic figure, but when you really examine Zack's actions he doesn't act in a very heroic way all that often. His conflicts with Angeal and Genesis are more personal than anything, and he fails to save banora or Nibelhiem from Shinra, too. The most heroic thing he does is save Cloud, and even that inadvertently messed with Cloud's head because of some poorly phrased dying words.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's very true. Like I said, the game isn't well written.