Affiliations page: Update discussion

[Shademp]

After noticing in our Affiliations page that one link is down and that one link is slightly outdated, I thought this would be a good time to contemplate the function of the page.


With all of these sites, TLS does not have on-going communication and content sharing. Is the term "affiliations" an obsolete one thusly or is it still suitable? I'm curious how people perceive the term "affiliation" in the context of modern websites and TLS.


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General discussions aside, here is what I'd like to do with the page right now:

- Remove the link to the "Final Fantasy VII Web Novels"; this is the Xcomp site that went down. All that remains is a smilie.

- Replace the above Xcomp with another Web Novel link: One the S&G's Unofficial FFVII Novel facebook page. I can talk directly to S&G about this.

- Update the "Gamerspective" link to "Geekspective" and correct the url to reflect this name.

- Remove the link to the FFVII Roleplaying site "FF Mako Poison". The last post was made on May 3 2014. The site appears dead.

Any objections? If not, then I will make these updates.

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My impression is that the term "Affiliations" is associated with a mutual exchange even if it only be in the form of a link under each site's Affiliations.

Under this definition, Shillatime.org does not fit as there is no link to TLS and it's only a cool place to spot Absolute Steve's FFVII guides and FFVIII guide. Should a second category aside from "Affiliations" be created, so we can have links to FF sites that are "generally cool" or important to the FFVII community in some way? If so, then sites like Qhimm would qualify due to it being the centre for FFVII modding.

 

[Airling]

Seconded.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes to all that, Shademp. If this is going to be the central hub for all things FFVII-related, then we need to link outward even to people who don't link us back, if they have something specifically FFVII-related to offer. I might be wrong, but I got the impression that we wanted this site to be the first port of call for anyone interested in the game and its compilation, and if they know they can link onwards to what they're looking for they will be more likely to come here.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Yes to all of this. I finally got the Steam version of FFVII and was wondering why we didn't have a link to where all the modding resources for FFVII can be found...

 

[Lex]

The problem with Qhimm is that they don't really like a lot of traffic XD. Most of you know this but I actually came here from there, I've been a member there for over 10 years. For the majority of that time they were terrified of being shut down by SE so they don't advertise.

I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem with us linking to them though. On the wider question of affiliations, I'll probably have more to add later. It would be a good idea to seek out all the other VII-centric sites and have an exchange with them to gauge how willing they are to become affiliates.

 

[Ami]

I was going to get in touch on Geekspective's end, but there's been so much going on since launch that it slipped my mind. Thanks for getting it sorted, TLS is still on our affiliates page as I did set it up pre-launch. If you need anything on our end, just let me know. You know where to find me.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@Lex: I found out about Qhimm because they made an entire guide and thread about modding FFVII and FFVIII on Steam... which is kinda the definition of a high-traffic gaming site...

 

[Shademp]

- Added link to S&G's 'Unofficial FFVII Novel' facebook page. When talking to Mo, I said we would either only link to his facebook or both that one and his Axtelera Ray site. I included a link to the latter because that specific link talks about the FFVII novelisation project in greater detail.

I feel great solidarity with Mo because of how he has promoted TLS and my facebook page over and over through the years. When I make a facebook update I may at the most get 200 views, but when Mo shares it I easily get 3000+ views. Thanks to Mo the FFVII-FFX articles got many more hits. Due to this solidarity I feel it justified to highlight that he has written original fiction as well. Let me know if there are any disagreements here.

- GlitterBerri's site was previously placed at the top because of her important contributions to the Unused Text Series, but that was a long time ago now so it doesn't matter to me personally where her link ends up. GlitterBerri has been mostly silent but recently announced that she has been devoting herself to hardcore Zelda research for a year now.

- Mako Poison link removed.

- Geekspective link corrected.

- The FF Merchandise link was justified previously thanks to a thread that held a large database to merchandise. That thread is now gone though, so I'm not sure how useful FFM is to FFVII fans anymore.​

I am aware that the vision to have "Useful links for the Final Fantasy VII fan" may not coincide enough with the definition of "Affiliations". Whether we end up creating a new page or renaming the Affiliations page is unclear, but I'll keep using this thread for brainstorming.


- Qhimm: The central FFVII modding community.

The fact that Qhimm has not been shut down after the Steam release of FFVII creates a great confidence that Square won't send a cease & desist. Companies can be unpredictable so naturally Qhimm will never be 100% safe, but I think that the admins will agree to my conclusions. Should a link to Qhimm be added from TLS without asking Qhimm admins what they think or should we ask permission?

Because of what Obsidian/Engineer said, I'd gladly include the description "Just bought the Steam release and want to play the PC version of FFVII with mods? Look no further!" etc.



- FF7Citadel: Being one of the oldest FFVII fansites out there, I want to include a link to this site because of how many ancient articles it has. Looking through their article archive in particular, it feels like a time capsule of the FFVII fandom throughout the years. Am I the only one who feels that FF7Citadel deserves an honorary link from TLS because of its "historical value"? The site rarely updates and the forum is almost dead but the citadel still clearly has a few inhabitants.


- FFVIIExcavation: The site is a bit glitchy and not all the links work (sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, also the Advent Children sections appear to be completely gone), but it has an extensive library of promotional FFVII art, images from no-longer active official FFVII sites, game scripts and other esoteric stuff. A link to the FFVIIExcavation YouTube channel is mandatory primarily because of the Dirge of Cerberus videos there that you won't find anywhere else.


- Final Fantasy Subreddit: This is my main source for FF news and has also been a place where I've promoted a few of my articles. I sense that a subreddit doesn't have "affiliates" as such, so this is yet again simply a useful Final Fantasy link that FFVII fans should have. Surprisingly many are not avid users of reddit.


- GameFAQ FFVII Board: The board has remained active for all these years and so it is still a relevant centre for the FFVII community. If only for that reason, I would include a link to that board. I am a fan of the humble approach where we are not afraid of accidentally linking people away from TLS: I want TLS to be a hub for the FFVII community and that other active players should be acknowledged without any competitive attitudes stopping us.



In a list of "Links for the Final Fantasy VII Fan", does anybody else have any suggestions? Any FFVII (or FF) fanfic sites I should know about?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

All that sounds good to me.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

We could probably link directly to the Compilation archives for fan fiction at ff.net and AO3.

I love the Final Fantasy Citadel and agree that we need to maintain a link, not just for sentimental and historical reasons. It's a rich mine of material.

Totally agree about the links to Mo's fic. If I failed to do that, it was by accident, not design.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

We could probably link directly to the Compilation archives for fan fiction at ff.net and AO3.

If we were to do this, I would highly recommend including a warning about NSFW stuff being on both those sites. I can't in good conscious recommend both those sites to people without warning them about some of the stuff on those sites (AO3 more then ff.net). For those of us who know how fandoms work, it's not that much of a problem. But for people who have never read fanfics, it can be pretty off-putting.

Or at least, it was for me until I learned what all the fan-speak tags meant...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes. Agree. Maybe the link should be in Fan Works anyway...?

 

[Shademp]

I see no harm in linking to the fanfic archives from two places. Both Fan Works and Affiliations-or-whatever-it-will-be-called should work fine. NSFW tags noted.

Spoiler

The NSFW stuff did not even spring to mind because I don't frequent either of those two sites.

 

[Lex]

@Lex: I found out about Qhimm because they made an entire guide and thread about modding FFVII and FFVIII on Steam... which is kinda the definition of a high-traffic gaming site...

Wasn't made by or with the permission of a staff member.

I'm not saying we shouldn't link to them, it's just that what I said before hasn't changed. Any little modding guide you find on the Internet has obviously come from Qhimm, doesn't mean the actual modders want it everywhere.

 

[Flintlock]

Before we decide exactly who we want to affiliate with, I think it's worth having a discussion about why we have affiliates in the first place.

Is it simply to get traffic? Is it to get interested traffic, from sites with audiences similar to ours? Is it to support the off-site projects of our community members? It could also be a combination of those reasons.

Once we've decided that, we need to think about the type of affiliation program we want to run (or be part of). There is no correct answer here; it really depends on what we want out of it. On one end of the scale, we have a list of links to Final Fantasy VII (or just Final Fantasy) sites that we like, such as the Citadel. We don't expect or need those sites to reciprocate by providing a link to us. On the other end of the scale, we have full-blown collaboration. That could involve article syndication and working together on projects and events. In between is the most popular type of affiliation, in which we link only to those sites who will agree to link to us in return, maybe give them a quick mention in a single article, but generally leave it up to our visitors to find their own way there without much encouragement.

My personal preference would be to take the middle ground in both cases - interested visitors and mutual link placement - but I could definitely get on board with a full affiliation if we found the right site or sites to work with. That doesn't mean we can't link to the Citadel, to use just one example, but we wouldn't call them an affiliate.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Agreed. One way links are not affiliates.

I would like to see outward links to sites of interest to Final Fantasy fans. It would be preferable if the active ones could link back to us, but I don't think the Citadel is active any more.

Flint, who in particular could you see us having full blown collaboration with?

We have a thread in the forum for Creativity, where members can link to their own projects. We could shift it to the Fanworks section if people wanted that, although I think it's in the right place now.

Maybe we could divide the Affiliations page in 2: Final Fantasy related and member related?

I understand that many people see the links and affiliates as a means of generating traffic, whereas I guess I see the system more as a means of meeting the needs of fans. If we meet their needs, traffic will (should) increase automatically.

 

[Flintlock]

Flint, who in particular could you see us having full blown collaboration with?

I don't have anyone in mind. This is the only Final Fantasy site I visit. That's why I said "if we found the right site or sites to work with". If it's something we seriously want to consider then I can start evaluating the sites that have been mentioned in this thread already, though it wouldn't really be my responsibility to make a decision on it.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Do we already have an affiliation with the FF Wiki?

 

[Shademp]

Do we already have an affiliation with the FF Wiki?

We are apparently there under "Editor Submitted Sites". It can be debated whether we should request to be under "Site Affiliates" or "Final Fantasy related".

EDIT: I forgot to add before that, yes, I think we should include a link to the FF Wiki. We currently don't have a link to that site.

 

[Shademp]

Round Two! *ding dong*

Before we decide exactly who we want to affiliate with, I think it's worth having a discussion about why we have affiliates in the first place.

Is it simply to get traffic? Is it to get interested traffic, from sites with audiences similar to ours? Is it to support the off-site projects of our community members? It could also be a combination of those reasons.

Traffic-wise, Affiliate pages will not generate much. Yop wrote elsewhere that since 2008 (although I think he meant since 2012, because the Affiliations page was first created on July 1, 2012) there have been 401 pageviews of the Affiliations page. Compare this to our most popular pages which have tens of thousands of views.

From what I can surmise, the purpose of having a page for Affiliates/Affiliations is the formality of "this is a page that organized websites typically have". Anything we decide then is mostly for the sake of being a formal facelift, which I honestly have no problem with at all. I like formality for the sake of formality.

That doesn't mean we have to follow standard procedure. We could be rebellish if we like. With the vision I've been brainstorming, I want this page to be a "Map to FFVII Sites". We may even change the name from "Affiliations" to "Map to FFVII Sites", especially if we agree that the latter is more likely to be clicked on than the boring/formal/common-so-much-that-site-visitors-won't-even-contemplate-its-existence 'Affiliations' page name.

Once we've decided that, we need to think about the type of affiliation program we want to run (or be part of).

From my point of view, there is no site that we will have an in-depth collaboration with. The format so far is that TLS members make content for TLS. There is no cross-site collaboration and active mutual sharing of articles and events.

For this reason I think the affiliation program should be simple and clean: Site X share a link to us and we share a link to Site X. If both sites actively share each other's news (like we have seen some of from S&G's Unofficial FFVII Novel facebook page) then that's just a bonus.


Say that we go with renaming the page "Map to FFVII Sites", I imagine that any site that is an Affiliate will get that tag written below their site link. As such:

The Unofficial FFVII Novel
Affiliate to The Lifestream!

Every FFVII fan deserves to know about S&G’s epic undertaking to novelise the Compilation. Find the released works via this facebook page, along with previews of to-be released books and meme tributes to Final Fantasy VII.

For more project info, follow this link where you may also read about the original fiction written by S&G.​

The only downside I see to this system is that when we request new affiliates or revisit old ones, they will dislike that we don't have a page specifically named "Affiliations". Even if we argue that the page name "Map to FFVII Sites" draws more attention, they may dislike having an Affiliation tag "hidden" on such a page.

To me this downside is worth it for the sake of a more appealing name-change and for the formation of a page that is more useful to the FFVII fan who is trying to orient himself/herself through the FFVII parts of the internet.


Furthermore, related to this vision and these grounds, I would question the current presence of links to "Final Fantasy Union" and "Geekspective".


Final Fantasy Union
There are HUNDREDS of general Final Fantasy news sites out there. Can anybody inform me if FFU is exceptional in some way or another? If it isn't, then I would argue that we remove this affiliation (mutually, of course). They kindly link to our site and we link to them, but if we truly want to guide the FFVII fan across the web, how can we justify the link to FFU? If we can't justify it, then it should be removed.


Geekspective
The same questions posed for FFU apply here and even moreso due to the site focusing on not only video games, but also tv shows and books.



I'd like to hear what disagreements and/or agreements people have with the vision I've presented. Primarily I'm interested in what people think about the possibility of a name change from "Affiliations" to "Map to FFVII Sites".

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Round Two! *ding dong*


Traffic-wise, Affiliate pages will not generate much. Yop wrote elsewhere that since 2008 (although I think he meant since 2012, because the Affiliations page was first created on July 1, 2012) there have been 401 pageviews of the Affiliations page. Compare this to our most popular pages which have tens of thousands of views.

If it generates so little traffic, then we don't need to worry about the diplomacy of "you link me and I'll link you". I am totally on board with getting rid of the both the concept and the name "Affiliates" and renaming the page something else.

That doesn't mean we have to follow standard procedure. We could be rebellish if we like. With the vision I've been brainstorming, I want this page to be a "Map to FFVII Sites". We may even change the name from "Affiliations" to "Map to FFVII Sites", especially if we agree that the latter is more likely to be clicked on than the boring/formal/common-so-much-that-site-visitors-won't-even-contemplate-its-existence 'Affiliations' page name.

I agree with you (I think) in that I see TLS as a first port of call for the FFVII (or even Final Fantasy altogether) fandom from which fans can depart in many different directions. "Map to FFVII sites" is good, as it clearly states the function of the page. May I also suggest, "Sites of further interest" ?

From my point of view, there is no site that we will have an in-depth collaboration with. The format so far is that TLS members make content for TLS. There is no cross-site collaboration and active mutual sharing of articles and events.

Yes. If there is any sharing or collaboration to be done it can be done on an ad hoc basis.

For this reason I think the affiliation program should be simple and clean: Site X share a link to us and we share a link to Site X. If both sites actively share each other's news (like we have seen some of from S&G's Unofficial FFVII Novel Facebook page) then that's just a bonus.

Do we even need to worry about them linking back to us?

The only downside I see to this system is that when we request new affiliates or revisit old ones, they will dislike that we don't have a page specifically named "Affiliations". Even if we argue that the page name "Map to FFVII Sites" draws more attention, they may dislike having an Affiliation tag "hidden" on such a page.

I guess that's possible, but it's our site, so whether they dislike it or not isn't really an issue. If they dislike it so much they can disaffiliate, but I bet they won't.

To me this downside is worth it for the sake of a more appealing name-change and for the formation of a page that is more useful to the FFVII fan who is trying to orient himself/herself through the FFVII parts of the internet.

Agreed.

Furthermore, related to this vision and these grounds, I would question the current presence of links to "Final Fantasy Union" and "Geekspective".

Maybe somebody can make a case for the Final Fantasy Union, but it won't be me. As for Geekspective, I have always thought we should disaffiliate in the grounds that it doesn't fit our mandate.

 

[Shademp]

Spoiler tags because tl;dr.

Spoiler: Response to Lic

Do we even need to worry about them linking back to us?

Definitely not. To match a placement in the "Map to FFVII Sites" page, a mutual linkage is not necessary. It was for this reason I suggested the "affiliates" tag for the Unofficial FFVII Novel link, as this would place that one link apart from the rest. In this vision, most site links would not have the affiliates tag.

If it generates so little traffic, then we don't need to worry about the diplomacy of "you link me and I'll link you". I am totally on board with getting rid of the both the concept and the name "Affiliates" and renaming the page something else.

I am not sure if I'm against, for or even neutral on the subject of removing even the affiliation tag. Writing down thoughts on the spot, I reckon that the tag 'Affiliate of the Lifestream' to one link, in contrast to the many links who don't have the tag, may give the impression of favoritism and that we are biased towards one site or the other.

Maybe this 'tag' is a give-or-take thing and if that is truly the case (I'll wait for others to provide their input) then I'd vote that we don't define any site as an 'affiliate' if only for the sake of simplicity and minimalism.

I agree with you (I think) in that I see TLS as a first port of call for the FFVII (or even Final Fantasy altogether) fandom from which fans can depart in many different directions.

I'd like TLS to be a first port for FFVII fans both old and new. That dream never completely goes away for me. The sad truth is that we are a fairly obscure site. Type in any variation of 'final fantasy vii' on google and it will be many many pages before you find TLS. However if you happen to type in 'translations' or 'unused' along with the game, you will find us quickly. Nevertheless I am brainstorming about this 'Map to FFVII Sites' page as though we were the definitive first port.

"Map to FFVII sites" is good, as it clearly states the function of the page. May I also suggest, "Sites of further interest" ?

On one hand I find the name "Map to FFVII Sites" more attractive, on the other hand it lies a bit because many sites we recommend aren't precisely "FFVII Sites": They just happen to have really good FFVII section.

"Sites of Further Interest" doesn't hold that unintentional lie but I'm still more attracted to the "Map to FFVII Sites" name.

Spoiler: Draft for 'Map to FFVII Sites'

Before making any big changes to the Affiliations page, I will write up a draft here now on the forum:

The Lifestream is defined by its exclusive translations and in-depth articles, along with its active and welcoming forum. For the Final Fantasy VII fan, both old and new, it's very worthwhile knowing about the other sites that define the FFVII fandom and/or help with navigating through the franchise. Read our selected sites below.

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Final Fantasy Wiki
Anything you want to know? Chances are very high that you can learn about it here.

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Qhimm
This is THE Final Fantasy VII modding community. Just bought the PC version of FFVII through steam and want to try out a few mods? Roam the FAQs and Tutorials section to get started. Perhaps you bought ye olde 1998 PC version of FFVII and need help installing it on a modern computer? Qhimm is the place to go for guidance on this and other modding challenges.

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Final Fantasy Subreddit
For fast Final Fantasy news and highlights of fan works.

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The Unofficial FFVII Novel

Every FFVII fan deserves to know about S&G’s epic undertaking to novelise the Compilation. Find the released works via this facebook page, along with previews of to-be released books and meme tributes to Final Fantasy VII.

For more project info, follow this link where you may also read about the original fiction written by S&G.

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The Final Fantasy VII Citadel
One of the oldest fan sites devoted to the seventh roman numeral Final Fantasy. The great amount of content and its age define the site as a time capsule for the FFVII franchise and its community. Want to read analytical and speculative articles from before the Compilation? The Citadel is where you should go.

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FFVII Excavation
Note: Pages may be unwilling to properly load at times
An impressive archive of images from the entire run of the FFVII franchise, along with translations and character bios. Browsing FFVII Excavation's YouTube channel is a must if you want to find rare videos from the Compilation.

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GameFAQs: FFVII
The board for the PlayStation version of FFVII has remained active for well over a decade now and is a common place for both new players and veterans. Don't miss out on the great guides they have to offer, in particular those written by Absolute Steve, GarlandG and TFergusson.

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Archive Of Our Own & FanFiction: FFVII
Also known as AO3 and ff.net respectively. These are the havens for writers of fanfiction and common grounds for those who write FFVII material.
Warning: Be aware of tags that define a literary piece as being 'adult' and/or 'NSFW' (Not Safe For Work)

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Sites Covering Unused Material
The Final Fantasy VII sections of these sites are greatly recommended for anyone interest in pre-release material and hidden-in-the-code content.

- The Cutting Room Floor

- Unseen64

- GlitterBerri

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The list looks a bit messy, at least in the forum format. So far I don't have a neat way of organizing the link or a definitive order in which the links should be listed. Dividing up in a "Forum" versus "Content" category does not work because some sites double as both.

Aside from not including Final Fantasy Union and Geekspective, the draft also does not include the Final Fantasy Merchandise forum and the German FFVII site 'CetraConnection'. FF Merchandise is no longer as relevant due to having lost its extensive list of FFVII merchandise. CetraConnection is impressive in many ways and has stood the test of time, but are we really that concerned about making sure that non-English speakers find their way? I'd feel more comfortable with this link if we had confirmed dominant FFVII sites in German, Spanish, French, Chinese and what-have-you.

Chose not to include a link to Shillatime because Absolute Steve and GameFAQs are mentioned anyway in the list.


I'd like to hear what people think about this draft. If there are no opinions against it, I will change the name of the Affiliations page and implement the above draft at some point this Saturday or Sunday.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^I'd still link to Shillatime because that site has a bunch of images/illustrations that are exclusive to various Ultimanias (items/armor/weapons) and that I haven't been able to find anywhere on the web.

Also, if you PM me before the page goes live, I'll take a look at the formatting so that it'll match the look of the rest of the site.

I'd edit the discription of the AO3 and fanfic.net discription to this:

Also known as AO3 and ff.net respectively. These are the havens for writers of fanfiction and common grounds for those who write FFVII material.
Warning: Be aware of tags that define a literary piece as being 'adult' and/or 'NSFW' (Not Safe For Work). Usually these are rated "Mature" and/or "Explicit".

 

[Shademp]

I took the liberty of formatting the page myself. The old "affiliations" url was changed into the "map_to_ffvii_sites" url, ergo why the links in this thread to the Affiliations page will no longer work.

- Map to FFVII Sites

Although I formatted the page myself, I think it should be easy enough for you Obsidian to do quick "search and replace" with the small parts of the code that may not fit with the rest of the website. My hope here was that the process would be quicker/faster for you if I did the main bulk of the work myself and I hope that's ok. =)


Geekspective, through Ami aka Lana Kane, has been informed that we no longer use the Affiliations format. In fair style, Geekspective has removed their link to us.

I will contact Final Fantasy Union and CetraConnection sometime during the coming week about this change of format, so that fair play is kept and that they can make the choice to remove their link to us, now that we no longer link to them.

If a German speaker can make a case for having a link to CetraConnection on our Map to FFVII Sites, please let me know.

^^I'd still link to Shillatime because that site has a bunch of images/illustrations that are exclusive to various Ultimanias (items/armor/weapons) and that I haven't been able to find anywhere on the web.

I'm pretty convinced that the artwork exists on the FF Wiki if you know where to look.

Wiki: Final Fantasy VII Concept Art
This gallery is super-extensive and easier to browse than the ones on Shillatime.

For this reason I changed the description of the FF Wiki to include that any piece of artwork you are looking for can be found there.

 

[Airling]

Could the AO3 and ff.net links maybe link directly to the Final Fantasy VII tag, like so:

Archive of Our Own & FanFiction