All sympathy lost

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
The appeal of Sephiroth as a villain is in how he affects the characters who are still alive during the story of FF7. Sephiroth as an aspect of Jenova is a truly terrifying creation, and one of rich poetic irony, because he seems to play straight into the stale old fated-brother-enemy-showdown trope, but imo the game subverts is beautifully by having *Cloud* be manipulated by a Lovecraftian soul-eater to believe he has a Fated Brother Enemy Showdown, just as he is manipulated into believing that he is the Jaded Ronin of Ultimate Destiny (which the Compilation still thinks he is) when he's actually
Cloud.
 
I played CC and it was nice to see Sephiroth before he came a mummy's boy. I absolutely loved CC but there was one huge problem for me one that I wished didn't exist and that was Genesis to me it made Sephiroth's story lessened and it made Sephiroth dumb why didn't he think he was created the same way as Angeal or Genesis? I know he's stronger but when he's in reactor in the original I can understand why he was shocked but not in CC.
On the surface, Sephiroth not realizing earlier that his origins were almost identical to that of Angeal and Genesis does appear rather silly. I can only think of one primary justification: Denial.

Sephiroth has an existential crisis (THE REAL CRISIS OF THE PLANET :awesome: /jk) in Nibelheim due to realizing that he is "not human". Clearly, Sephiroth was invested in the idea of his own humanity. Learning of Project G may have raised Sephiroth's suspicions, to which he responded with a self-comforting denial and thus continued to believe that he was not a "monster". Sephiroth was not yet ready to accept the notion of his origins being different from normal members of SOLDIER.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
I still think Sephiroth did everything by his own will and Jenova was literally braindead the whole time. Nothing to me suggests otherwise. The guy found out he's an experiment, went mad, used J body for his own uses, that's it.
 

Kionae

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Desha
I still think Sephiroth did everything by his own will and Jenova was literally braindead the whole time. Nothing to me suggests otherwise. The guy found out he's an experiment, went mad, used J body for his own uses, that's it.

While I agree that it was largely Sephiroth's will orchestrating things, I don't think Jenova qualifies as "braindead". Sephiroth knows things (about Jenova, the Cetra, etc.) that he wouldn't without that information coming from Jenova in one form or another, be it from her physical body or her presence in the Lifestream.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
What does Sephiroth know exactly that he couldn't get from the Lifestream (aka all the knowledge passed from the deceased?) alone? This is not like the case with Cloud knowing things only Zack should know, implying that he read Zack's memories although it's not stated anywhere. Sephiroth literally had access to all the knowledge ever passed to LS, from both humans and Cetra.

Not that it has to be mandatory for Jenova to be conscious for Seph to "get to know her". J cells can apparently read memories without the main thing being conscious, which S could've done by interracting with J.
 
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I still think Sephiroth did everything by his own will and Jenova was literally braindead the whole time. Nothing to me suggests otherwise. The guy found out he's an experiment, went mad, used J body for his own uses, that's it.

While I agree that it was largely Sephiroth's will orchestrating things, I don't think Jenova qualifies as "braindead". Sephiroth knows things (about Jenova, the Cetra, etc.) that he wouldn't without that information coming from Jenova in one form or another, be it from her physical body or her presence in the Lifestream.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Jenova more like a virus and it doesn't have a gender? That it can take any form either that of a male or female?

I always thought Jenova lay dormant until Sephiroth arrived at the reactor and this awakened Jenova.

I do have a question how did Sephiroth become to control Jenova? I assume as Nomura said there's nothing more powerful than him does that mean he's more powerful than Jenova?

And I still am yet to understand why after obtaining all the knowledge in the lifestream why he continuted with his plan.

Also in the film he still refers to Jenova as "mother" why? Not that I'm saying he should start calling Lucrecia by that term. I just thought by then he'd give up with any of that type of referencing.
 
Also in the film he still refers to Jenova as "mother" why? Not that I'm saying he should start calling Lucrecia by that term. I just thought by then he'd give up with any of that type of referencing.
To quote when Cloud and company meet Vincent for the first time.

Vincent
“…….Lucrecia.”
“The woman who gave birth to Sephiroth.”

Cloud
“…gave birth…?”
“Wasn't Jenova Sephiroth's mother?”

Vincent
That isn't completely wrong,
but just a theory.”
Jenova's cells are what make Sephiroth into the type of super-powerful entity he is. Jenova defines Sephiroth's existence more than Lucrecia does. Ergo, Lucrecia is "merely" the woman who gave birth to Sephiroth, but not the woman who made Sephiroth into what he is.

From a certain point of view, of course.

vYTZ5Ja.png
 

Kionae

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Desha
What does Sephiroth know exactly that he couldn't get from the Lifestream (aka all the knowledge passed from the deceased?) alone? This is not like the case with Cloud knowing things only Zack should know, implying that he read Zack's memories although it's not stated anywhere. Sephiroth literally had access to all the knowledge ever passed to LS, from both humans and Cetra.

Not that it has to be mandatory for Jenova to be conscious for Seph to "get to know her". J cells can apparently read memories without the main thing being conscious, which S could've done by interracting with J.

I suppose you do have a point there.

Though if it were the case that Jenova has no consciousness to speak of, why was Hojo experimenting with her to begin with? At least a PART of his experiment, as he explicitly explains it to Rufus, is to prove his Jenova Reunion theory... that Jenova's dismembered body will eventually become one again. That implies at least some level of thought or instinct inherent in her cells for them to be able to recombine. He believed Sephiroth to be dead... that's why he created his "clones" in the first place, so he was clearly expecting Jenova to take control of them. He must have had a reason for thinking that Jenova hadn't been diffused into the Lifestream like other living beings.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Jenova more like a virus and it doesn't have a gender? That it can take any form either that of a male or female?

According to Iflana, Jenova is a shapeshifter that infected the Cetra with a virus that caused them to go mad and become monsters. I just have a habit of referring to it as 'her', as do a lot of the characters in the game, including Sephiroth.
 
Yeah I get that it just seems a bit strange to me a character who has transcended to such a powerful being and holds great knowledge and is in control of mother. But then he's still a mummy's boy in AC when he does his whole speech it just seemed odd but then he's constantly toying with Cloud instead of finishing him off
 
According to Iflana, Jenova is a shapeshifter that infected the Cetra with a virus that caused them to go mad and become monsters. I just have a habit of referring to it as 'her', as do a lot of the characters in the game, including Sephiroth.[/QUOTE]


Yeah they do I just always saw it as more like a virus that shape itself at will.
 

Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
This is gonna be a bit of a disorganized ramble. Not really responding to anyone in particular, just getting some thoughts out of my brain.

It always made more sense to me that Sephiroth was the one in control. Even after you find out the body you were chasing the whole game was actually Jenova, everyone in the game, Cloud and Hojo most notably, still seem to regard Sephiroth as the puppet-master. Its his will, and his desire to control the clones that Cloud and Hojo bring up, not Jenova's.

Furthermore, if we were to assume that Jenova was in control, then we would have to assume that Sephiroth's mind would not actually be present in the Jenova body you chase, and that that being is just Jenova's mind choosing to appear and speak as Sephiroth. After all, why would Jenova allow Sephiroth to use her body as a vessel if she's the one in control of him.

But then that raises some issues right away, such as why would Jenova take Sephiroth's appearance and identity as her own? To manipulate Cloud? Why manipulate him at all in such a way? Its not needed for her plans to succeed. In truth the whole plan to achieve the black materia and cast meteor does not require Cloud's presence at all. Sephiroth/Jenova could have left Cloud rotting in his cell back at SHinra HQ, and the plan would have gone on just fine. The only thing Jenova would really want him for is to get back the J-cells in his body for the reunion, which she doesn't actually get in the game, so it clearly wasn't a vital part of the plan.

That would be all fine and well, but the manner in which Sephiroth/Jenova messes with Cloud during the course of the game seems to suggest a more personal vendetta, a desire for revenge perhaps. That of course implies Sephiroth is the one piloting the Jenova body, since he would have reasons to want to seek revenge on Cloud after Nibelheim. So again, it seems to me that Sephiroth is the one calling the shots. At the very least, he has enough of a say to slip his own agenda and desires into Jenova's plans.

Furthermore, if Jenova was the true puppet master orchestrating this whole thing, then why is she the one barring your path to Sephiroth in the NC, rather than the other way around. And shouldn't that control over Sephiroth have lifted once the party killed Jenova, thus restoring Sephiroth to his non-evil self? Instead he still blocks Holy, still confronts the party in a rather sadistic fashion, torturing them with his telekinesis and all that.

Perhaps you could argue that Jenova's will could survive via the cells in his body and continue to exert control over him. Fine, that would make sense. But then, what about after the final battle? Sephiroth's body has now been killed, and he is a spirit in the lifestream. Still he is restraining Holy, and laughing about it mind you. Cloud had to go into the lifestream himself to finally put an end to things. The only way this works is if you think Jenova's spirit is so entwined with Sephiroth's that they are completely inseparable even in death. But if that's the case then one must ask, is there really any difference between Jenova and Sephiroth at that point?

It makes the most sense to me to assume that either Sephiroth is the one in control of Jenova, or that the two have merged so fully that they are essentially one and the same at this point.

Sorry for the ramble. I've been thinking about this a fair bit lately, and this seemed like a good chance to unload it.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
In the remake I want Jenova to be more of a force than she was in the original games, and be an even more equal partner in crime with Sephiroth. I want her to show that there is a reason why the Ancients feared her.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
The Ancients feared her because she could assume the form of their dead friends and manipulate them into serving her goals of planetary destruction.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
I fear it even in it's weakened state. Big creepy thing.....wheres it's &@$*%% head?!

If they make Jenova sentient in any way that a human could understand it becomes less scary.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
S and J becoming one is a little too hard for me to grasp. J is active in the way that S is continuing her legacy and using her body/cells to achieve the goal that may go in hand with her own, but then S goes ahead and ditches mom's body to become a god. J is still his mom, but it's fucking braindead and thus useless once S gets a new body.

Jenova is active through Sephiroth, although being in close proximity/interracting with J may have very well influenced S' actions/mindset.

ARGHH THIS IS CONFUSING AF
 
Sephiroth's will + Jenova's instinct =

Although she did all those things she did, we might be mistaken in assuming she is a sentient, thinking entity as opposed to one whose mimicry is entirely instinctive. Do mousebirds deliberately imitate the ring of a cell phone in order to annoy and confuse us? No - they just act according to instinct. If she is an instinctive entity, then she can't be said to have a will. All she can do is what comes naturally; she has no power of choice.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I always took Sephiroth referring to her as "mother" in Advent Children to be a bit mocking of Kadaj or even his former self - or at least a dig at Cloud for not knowing immediately what the remnants were referring to.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
If we go by AC (should we?), then Seph even moreso appears to have a will of his own and not really be one with Jenova. His intentions are to do what mom did (he's not referring to himself as Jenova here), though.

Just thought it might be a good thing to note.

AC is full of shit though.
 
I hope we get a little more explanation on why Sephiroth decided to actively seek to
destroy the planet after learning the entire truth and I do hope in the remake we get to know how Sephiroth becomes more powerful than Jenova. But then it might start to go into Vader/Anakin territory which some people think CC did but I never had a problem with Sephiroth being good before the breakdown.

Kinda of topic but in AC did he get even more over powererd than in FFVII.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I'm not sure I understand what people mean when they say "Vader/Anakin" territory, especially when describing Sephiroth in CC. My issue with Anakin in the prequels was that they only showed Anakin's growth towards the Dark Side, so a character who is supposed to be a hero is constantly angry, afraid, and downright evil. It wasn't until the Clone Wars show exhibited him as an actual good guy that I appreciated Anakin, and it actually improved both Anakin and Darth Vader immensely.

That's kind of how CC treated Sephiroth, although I found CC's story lacking it did exhibit Sephiroth's heroism, which imo was a good thing. I didn't know that aspect of CC was even contentious among fans lol
 

Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
I've never had an issue with Sephiroth in CC myself. His character there seems mostly in line with how he was portrayed in the first half of the Nibelheim flashback. He wasn't heroic necessarily, but he wasn't an asshole either. Aloof, but also civil and polite for the most part. Didn't have many friends, but showed genuine care for the ones he did have, and was deeply hurt by their betrayal, a fact which likely contributed to his eventual slide into insanity.

Granted, I don't think he's terribly interesting here either. Thats partially because his english va sounds kinda bored throughout the game, but also I do just think Sephiroth is at his best when he's filling the role of a villain.

There is only one aspect of Sephiroth's portrayal in CC that genuinely upsets me in any way; the complete lack of any version of Those Chosen By The Planet during the Nibelheim incident. What were they thinking?
 
I think I worded it wrong about the Vader thing I wasn't comparing the characters to similarity. What I meant was some people prefer the mystery of Sephiroth and the more Square Enix divulge into his character the less mysterious he becomes. Just like Vader lost a lot of this when the Anakin story was introduced.

Personally speaking I'd like more answers to Sephiroth's past. I liked Sephiroth's portrayal in CC. I just wished there was more of him before Nibelheim, more interactions with Zack and I wished they had the music played "Those Chosen by the planet."

And completely scraped Genesis I couldn't stand him.
 
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