An LTD Video (Vote)

[Jason Tandro]

^ You just broke my cute-o-meter. And I have a one-year old daughter so that's pretty damn hard to do. happens very often.


Edit: To be fair, as the video would be branded all over with TLS, I feel like we should take the admin's considerations to heart as they will be the one's dealing with backlash (particularly Lex and Pixel from what I gather). I wouldn't feel comfortable unless the "ayes" had a reasonable majority or if the "nays" said "we don't want to be apart but ya'll can do it."

 

[Starling]

You mean about how Barret's underrated and shouldn't be treated as just a stereotype?

I honestly thing Barret is one of the best written characters in FFVII, and the stereotypes bogging down the perception of his character is detrimental to the experience of FFVII overall because there are certain things his characters go through that no other character does.

*pulls out Barret Wallace Defense Squad flags*

The Barret video will probably look something like the video equivalent of that Barret appreciation thread I remember seeing a while back. It's important to note that FF7 was all about deconstructing common tropes at the time and showing that things aren't always as they seem. Just because a character resembled a stereotype didn't mean that's all they were. I mean, Aerith and Tifa don't act the way their appearances would cause people to expect them to act and I don't remember seeing anyone complain about that.

I understand that some people can get carried away with shipping but I still feel it's something that deserves objective discussion.

Getting carried away is an understatement. When the LTD posts touched down, things went personal, and they directly attacked the people who wrote the article, bashing them and trying to make them out as manipulative liars.

Huge swaths of ltd debaters spread shit on this forum about how it's biased against X and refuse to see any evidence pointed out. It'll be worse with a video.

I'm totally for a character study video though, I think those do give away a lot more for interesting discussion rather than a flame of hatred.

Times change. I'd like to be optimistic about people knowing how to behave better regarding the LTD these days. Plus, there's always the option of disabling comments at worst. I think both offer the opportunity to examine characters and their interactions with each other from different angles, which is something I enjoy. Plus by having a video dedicated to the LTD, it can be skimmed over when Cloud, Aerith and Tifa's character studies get done.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Does anybody else see the irony that we're having a debate about how much debate there will be in a video about a debate?

I agree with Starling. I'd like to hope that people will be able to for the majority contain their flames of hatred, but I also fully admit to be relying upon a bit of that spark to drive views. Let's face it probably the reason the Cross-Dressing Cloud video is getting so much attention is the debate between the people saying we're a buncha homos and the people saying we're making cross-dressing out to be a joke.

But in the middle of that freak show we still have over 1500 likes and 150,000 views. Any publicity is good publicity?


Edit: Right now it's a tie between yay and nay, and I know that most of the older veteran members and admins seem to be against the idea. I am all for yielding to the experience of the older and wiser. Might I offer this as a compromise?

If the nays carry the day, those of us who want to still do a TLD video could produce one and host it on one of our personal channels (I volunteer of course unless somebody else wants to). That could be used as a test study without directly impacting the TLS name (though without the TLS branding I doubt it would get viewed as much either).

 

[Splintered]

So, don't get involved. Its clear that some of us want it to happen. Some of us feel like we have something else to contribute or discuss.

It's not that easy, Tres's translations are pretty essential for the LTD discussion because it's the one I see most used here. And therefore, when the LTD flareup discussed before happened, Tres was the first one to get his named trashed, his translations picked apart, and called a liar with his journalistic integrity questioned. A similar thing happened to our other translator, Hito, iirc. At least, he was kicked out of a forum.

The likelihood of him being dragged into it again is probably high because they'll go after his translations, again.

Times change. I'd like to be optimistic about people knowing how to behave better regarding the LTD these days.

Nah, it's quiet on this forum, but at least on tumblr, there's large dramatic flare ups where a lot of people get harassed, called liars, make sockpuppets to bolster their claim, and spread general hate to each other, not just about their ships but attacking the individuals as well. The [mutual] abuse is alive and kicking.

 

[Jason Tandro]

^ Didn't realize the debate was still that intense. This is starting to seem like a bad idea.\

I don't want other people's names to get dragged in the mud further / bring up painful stuff from the past for the sake of a debate video.

 

[Starling]

Relevant video.

People really have no right to question someone's integrity about an objective text acknowledging both sides. If they do, then they shouldn't be given the time of day. I wasn't aware things were that bad on tumblr, as I make a point of avoiding the negative sides of it, preferring the parts where people stay friendly and positive, occasionally pointing out problematic behavior and why it should stop.

There really should be ways to discuss this kind of thing without kicking up a shitstorm. It's been almost 20 freaking years. Anyone who still rages at the opposing view point after that long has problems.

 

[Octo]

Why is there no 'Yes, you psychotic lunatic' option?

Anyway, as long as it isn't deliberately insulting I don't see the problem. If people are going to lose their shit over it, welp it's not our fault people can't behave like intelligent adults is it?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I say go for it. Punters like controversy.

It doesn't matter how sane and balanced you make your video, the lunatic fringe on both sides is going to go ballistic over the fact that you give the opposition any air time at all. If everybody is prepared for this, then go for it. You'll certainly get a very high volume of hits.

PS As far as I'm concerned, the LTD is a spectator sport.

 

[Channy]

Like Jason said, any publicity is good publicity. But the translators involvement can either be limited, private or non existent. Depending on who's doing the videos we could have our separate scripts set up, compile and organize these thoughts together with each other, start gathering the evidence (screenshots, quotes, compilation info) and check with a translator on a one on one basis and have their translations cited, with or without name dropping, depending on how they feel.

It's not the same as it was 5 years ago Nd I'm pretty sure I know of the ones you speak for dragging Tres and hitos names through the dirt. But if it's evenly balanced and doesn't end with a win, we can make this work.

 

[Fangu]

The way I decided my vote was to scroll through this thread to look for a post from either Tres or hito. Read Tres' post, clicked NO.

IMO, TLS can't support a video of this kind without the involvement of the LTD article authors/ translators/ LTD thread debaters.

The LTD used to be the #1 reason people found this site in the first place. It would be - some kind of - PR, I guess, but there are other things we can do instead to draw attention.

Also I don't like how the 'no' alternative is worded in this poll. No is a perfectly valid answer

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

JasonTandro

Spoiler

Well I don't think there should be any actual debating or dismissing or mocking of evidence in the video either, just presenting the facts, and letting people decide on their own and people accepting each side's beliefs Not that I actually think those involved here would be that mocking certainly not tumblr levels but even mock banter would probably be taken too seriously and to heart since it's such a sensitive topic and subject in general. Basically I would think there shouldn't be any dismissal or undermining of either side in general, both sides have their facts so let them have them without trying to tear them down or take them away or ridiculize things like the belief of Cloud and Aerith having a spiritual relationship/connection (since people do believe in Spiritualism outside of TLTD) or love after death or mockings of Cloud and Tifa having sex underneath the Highwind, living together as a happy family with children, etc

 

[Flare]

I think it sounds like it would stir up a lot of stuff. I voted no after reading the comments so far, since there seems to be some good-intention reservations about doing one. I think if one was made, it'd have to be just stating the facts and dialogue in the actual game, and leave extra opinions out of it, and let people/commenters decide for themselves. That way there'd be no legitimate way to 'burn' the ones that made the video as taking either side, it'd be presenting such a video as "this is what's in the game, what do you all think?"

I'm all in favor of character dynamic videos though, they would be a lot of fun. What about doing one showing how the characters are at the beginning of the game/story and how they are at the end of it, to show how they change.

 

[Lex]

Listen folks, the reason I mentioned it was a bad idea in the other thread is because I think it's a bad idea. The reason I won't outright say "no" right now is because I'm interested to see how other people feel about it (the idea) and also, I feel like it's not for me to personally dictate what other people want to put out in terms of content.

On the one hand, coming at it from the perspective of newer members, I can absolutely see the interest. I had it too. The interest goes away when you get involved for more than a minute and you have shippers all over you twisting what you say and spreading lies and misinformation all over the internet.

I feel that right now I'm not going to vote here. I strongly feel that any members going "huh? it's just a factual analysis" need to immediately go and read the LTD threads on this forum. I think that'll help with understanding why any LTD related content on this site is the equivalent of hearing a war siren.

And they're incredibly long reads. But only by reading them will you get a taste of what the deal is. Just to reinforce the point that the LTD is evil: it's the only thread on this forum that has both its own far more strict specific rules, and it's in its own subsection because we needed more mod powers for it.

 

[Shademp]

IMO, TLS can't support a video of this kind without the involvement of the LTD article authors/ translators/ LTD thread debaters.

Agreed. Without Tres, the author of Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally — An LTD Analysis (what I like to call "The Book of the LTD"), I do not support an LTD video either.

 

[Lex]

You see the problem with that though don't you? (I know Tres does). Perceived bias, no matter how impartial it is.

 

[Tetsujin]

Like Jason said, any publicity is good publicity.

This statement was never true.

 

[Shademp]

Perceived bias, no matter how impartial it is.

Indeed. There is no clean way of bringing up the LTD, no matter how hard one tries.

 

[Strangelove]

i don't think that on an individual level you will get any wide-spread fallout from stuff like this, mainly because i don't think the majority of people who read translations will remember the names of who actually did it. but that kind of defaming sometimes gets generalised, and in our case here it doesn't end up being 'tres' translation' or 'hito's translation', but 'the tls translation'. so any attempts to discredit one person's work ends up affecting everyone who works on the site. so if that notion that you can't trust 'tls translations' because they're dodgy liars and they knifed a granny in the street once to take her old lady hat, that affects everyone. it's mainly the super hardcore types who are going to remember specific names.

that said, defamation like that only really works if it gets wider traction. and i don't know if ltd stuff will get that sort of reach, unless particularly assy jerks just start saying 'you can't trust them' without context that lets people know it's because they're upset about shipping dramas. but everyone else who isn't deep into this (lucky) probably isn't doing to pay it much heed or even realise.

that said, i think you can still put something out on a contentious issue if you're confident enough with your work and if criticism amounts to basically 'i don't like it so it's wrong' then fuck that noise. (or the really weird ass objections like the invisible space in 'koi [??mystery zone??] bito' or 'you didn't acknowledge the ku' and all those terrible things, don't make me remember the terrible things)

you will always get the people who disregard you and try to write you off completely because they don't like what you said, so there's not much you can do about it

but like splintered said, there hasn't been anything new as far as this stuff goes for a long time so i think it would risk just treading old ground but in a new format. i think with the remake now official there could be a market (???) for retrospective videos, maybe like offering explanations of parts of the story that were vague or confusing (i always thought the idea of doing a video covering the jenova project but in the style of a shinra report would be fun).

Spoiler

i don't think i ever noticed his ear being popped back before and i don't know why because i look at that like 15 times every time i see it

 

[Joe]

Indeed. There is no clean way of bringing up the LTD, no matter how hard one tries.

This is why I voted no. I also don't want this attracting a ton of hate comments or, even worse, for people to sign up here specifically to spread tumbltard nonsense across our own LTD thread (or other threads).

 

[Jason Tandro]

I've changed my mind and if I could change my vote. Three main reasons:

1) The debate on whether or not to do the video itself is already entirely too much. There's clearly a good deal of resistance to this.

2) The older members and admins who know this shit better than us all think it's a horrible idea and, as I said before, will have to deal with the backlash. (Okay, not "all" I know there is some support, but still...)

3) The internet is an ugly place and I don't want other people getting dragged into stuff on account of this. There are plenty of other video ideas, this one might just have to wait until a day when it won't be such a hornet's nest. It might have to be carried on by our grandchildren

 

[Joe]

JT, if you're gonna work on another great video for the site please let it be something that is suitably interesting and will be enjoyable to watch.

May I suggest a video that explains how affordable it is to buy hair products in Midgar and how YOU can also get the Cloud Strife look.

 

[Jason Tandro]

JT, if you're gonna work on another great video for the site please let it be something that is suitably interesting and will be enjoyable to watch.

May I suggest a video that explains how affordable it is to buy hair products in Midgar and how YOU can also get the Cloud Strife look.

Eh, at this point I'm just a voice actor. I'll let Claymore (and others) mine the opinion piece gold. My one solo contribution is the OST Review, which is unofficial. Still, I could see a piece like that being handled well by either Tetsujin or Claymore

 

[Lex]

I feel like if you guys really want to do it, who are we to stop you? But I'm glad this thread has demonstrated some of the concern at least. I definitely don't think right now is the time for it.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I feel like if you guys really want to do it, who are we to stop you?

Lex
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But no, I honestly was not aware of exactly how bad an idea it was, and this thread made that abundantly apparent. I hadn't considered the possibility of others being dragged into this mess.

 

[Shademp]

If the remake adds LTD-relevant scenes or changes existing scenes, then that will certainly be article-worthy and possible even warranting one or more videos on the subject. That's the best opportunity I can think of and wouldn't necessarily have to include any opinions at all, especially if there is no analysis but merely a comparing between versions.