Argument split from gameplay/combat hopes thread

[hleV]

Passive materia such as Counter, Mime, etc. is a thing of an RPG with little realism and logic in its gameplay. It won't work for the Remake and shouldn't even be in. You still have the OG for all that stuff. The Remake should consist of ability to cast magic and perhaps "attach" it to your weapon (Elemental/Added Effect) but not have materia (especially Command) do actions for you.

[class=v][css="font-family: Candara, Skia, Corbel, 'Trebuchet MS', Geneva, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; text-align: justify; font-size: 16px; color: #38bcee;"]Mod note: This thread has been split from this topic by several people's request.[/css][/class]

 

[Claymore]

Are you honestly equating the ability to add - to the gameplay of an RPG no less - complex combinations, additional options and strategy styles as something lacking in realism and logic? Hhm. What did you think of XII's system by the way?

If the Remake is as restricted to just 'magic and some attachments' as your stating here, then I'm out. I've played Crisis Core, I don't want such a diluted Materia system again.

Heck, we could just take out Materia altogether and just make this a beat-em-up...

 

[Starling]

The combat system of the OG was made with turn-based combat in mind. Even if they plan to overhaul a bunch of stuff in the remake, one of the core rules of remaking a game is that you don't remove content. Some elements of the turn-based system wouldn't mesh well with a real-time combat system and I worry too much would be lost in transition. For example, once you have weapons with a decent number of materia slots, you can end up with a materia set up that gives you a number of options that would be difficult to allow in real-time combat without having to scroll through a long menu. I don't want to lose the ability to access that much variety in a fight.

 

[Claymore]

Seriously. Hands off my Enemy Skill! I will riot.

 

[hleV]

I imagine it should be something like fights in AC (might be hard to redo in-game, but more actual fighting and less any-logic-defying use of Materia). There's a lot I don't like about AC, but at least it showed FF7 world in a more realistic and less RPG-y way.

Would be nice if the Remake retconned some AC stuff like the strength of normal human party members and Turks, though.

And I didn't play XII.

 

[Starling]

Why is RPGness a bad thing these days? Can't RPGs be valued as much as any other game genre? As cool as real-time combat might be, I don't get why so many people seem to feel like it has to become that way.

 

[hleV]

Why is RPGness a bad thing these days?

In photorealistic games it breaks in-universe logic. Leveling up/increasing stats is fine as supposedly the in-game characters are not conscious of such mechanic, but fights themselves? They're very aware of what they do during fights. Non-real-time combat ruins immersion. Why can't Cloud dodge that fireball flying at 1mph speed? It was fine in OG because we played as lego chibi characters and not even the cutscenes attempted to portray them or anything at least remotely realistically.

 

[Starling]

It seems the argument that photorealistic graphics look ridiculous with RPG mechanics takes the approach of what gameplay goes best with the graphics, while otherwise the approach would be what RPG mechanics would look like with photorealistic graphics. I really don't get why RPGs suddenly become ridiculous once graphics improve beyond a certain point. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wondered what some RPG I was playing at that moment would look like with more detailed graphics, rather than what it'd be like if the gameplay was completely different. I'd like to be able to enjoy RPGs with turn-based combat without some requisite that they absolutely must have a specific graphical style in order to not break immersion.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

(this is in response to HLev, didn't see above post when I posted) I disagree entirely. Elements of walking around the world itself could be different as far as the graphics/presentation goes, but beautiful PS4-era graphics honestly has nothing to do with whether or not turn based combat works in the game or not. It's something you either enjoy and appreciate, or think of as a boring relic. Which I understand how people could feel that way, but I mourn, because to me it's a sign of the general "Halo-ing" (or Call of Dutying, or whatever you prefer) of video games overall

 

[hleV]

I really don't get why RPGs suddenly become ridiculous once graphics improve beyond a certain point.

I hope that rather than RPG idea in general, we're arguing turn-based and not-so-real-time combat where your actions are limited and do not portray how your controlled characters would/could behave in a real life scenario in order to be more efficient.

With that in mind, I know people want FF7 with good graphics. However IMO it just don't go well together, and while it would be fun nevertheless, the potential of FF7 HD would somewhat go to waste if we get realistic graphics but character actions (or lack thereof) in battle and whatnot remain absolutely unrealistic.

Nothing wrong with levels, stats, not-too-out-there materia combos and all that. But battle system itself? It has to be accomodated for the greatly improved graphics.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I still don't really get why anyone would think it breaks suspension of disbelief to have a turn-based battle system in PS4-quality graphics, but not in PS1-quality graphics. Is it just because the PS1 is cartoonish so you don't expect realistic combat anyway? Because to me graphics are really just packaging. I can get as immersed in a 2D sprite-based game as I can in a hi-res 3D game, and the effectiveness of the gameplay doesn't really depend on the graphics for me. Ultimately I play games because they're games, not because I'm looking for something ultra-realistic.

 

[Tetsujin]

I absolutely do not understand the sentiment of a battle system having to be adjusted to graphics.

 

[Starling]

I hope that rather than RPG idea in general, we're arguing turn-based and not-so-real-time combat where your actions are limited and do not portray how your controlled characters would/could behave in a real life scenario in order to be more efficient.

With that in mind, I know people want FF7 with good graphics. However IMO it just don't go well together, and while it would be fun nevertheless, the potential of FF7 HD would somewhat go to waste if we get realistic graphics but character actions (or lack thereof) in battle and whatnot remain absolutely unrealistic.

Nothing wrong with levels, stats, not-too-out-there materia combos and all that. But battle system itself? It has to be accomodated for the greatly improved graphics.

I forgot to amend that sentence to specify RPGs with turn-based combat, like I did in a later one.

As someone who grew up when CGI and the internet were still new things that were in their early stages of improvement, graphics have never been what I considered important for immersion. What gets me invested is the world and characters. Unrealistic elements have just as much a place in videogames as realistic ones and they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

As this is a remake rather than a completely new game, they have to keep in mind the original when they make changes. FF7's turn-based system allowed for a lot of options in what you could do in combat, which might not translate well into a real-time combat system, where that many options to scroll through would hinder your ability to respond quickly. If they were to solve that problem by reducing the variety of options you have access to at a time, you'd probably end up losing part of what was great about the turn-based system. You have to keep in mind the advantages and disadvantages and even then, not everyone's going to come to the same conclusions on which option is best suited for the game.

 

[hleV]

I still don't really get why anyone would think it breaks suspension of disbelief to have a turn-based battle system in PS4-quality graphics, but not in PS1-quality graphics.

PS1-quality graphics break suspension of disbelief on its own. There is no point of good graphics if it's instantly ruined by very unrealistic gameplay. Well, besides "omg it looks nice", which I don't think SE limits themselves to.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Because a game that looks realistic has to mimic properly every aspect of the real world? It's not the real world. I play games for escapism as much as anything, and being realistic doesn't necessarily make a game better. Mario wouldn't be anywhere near as fun if he could only jump as high as people can in real life, and even if they make a Mario game with photorealistic graphics, he's still going to be able to jump several times his own height. That doesn't make the games bad, and if that breaks suspension of belief for you then it sounds like the problem is with you rather than with the game. Especially since you're saying the original game's graphics broke your suspension of disbelief. I don't think most other people who played it had that problem.

 

[hleV]

Because a game that looks realistic has to mimic properly every aspect of the real world? It's not the real world.

It has to follow the logic of its own world. Is FF7's logic that whenever you encounter an enemy you're brought into a 3D space where you take turns in a fight till death? That's obviously not the case as proven by other media from the Compilation. Most fiction follows real world logic and adds some differences (0-10%), which is the same with FF7. So yeah it's the same real world with some differences. You can't disregard all real world logic only because FF7 world is not real world.

I play games for escapism as much as anything, and being realistic doesn't necessarily make a game better. Mario wouldn't be anywhere near as fun if he could only jump as high as people can in real life, and even if they make a Mario game with photorealistic graphics, he's still going to be able to jump several times his own height.

Your provided example does not break any logic of the world Mario is in. Did I ever say AC is bad because Cid, Tifa and Turks display inhuman feats? No. That shit is possible in FF7 world. I don't remember them taking turns in AC, though. You know why? Because that's not how FF7 world works. That's only how OG works, in other words, it's purely a gameplay thing and does not portray how battles actually happened in the story.

That doesn't make the games bad, and if that breaks suspension of belief for you then it sounds like the problem is with you rather than with the game.

Oh, sorry, my bad. FF7 and Mario are real.

Especially since you're saying the original game's graphics broke your suspension of disbelief. I don't think most other people who played it had that problem.

OK, I guess that makes my points invalid?

Don't get me wrong. It's not about the Remake's super photorealistic graphics. FFX (one of the few other FF games I played) had PS2 graphics and its battle system sucked ass because it was turn-based and still had random encounters. How can the game appear real, be set in a 3D space, and be so damn illogical? Because it's made for people who enjoy such battle system enough to disregard its lack of logic. And I'm all about logic.

OG's battle system is only fine because it has comparably shitty graphics. If it's lego, I don't have to take the environment too seriously and that allows me to enjoy the illogical battle without thinking too much about it.

FINALLY, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY:
Non-real-time battle system fails to portray the battles the way they actually may have happened within the story, instead it portrays them the way they definitely didn't happen. You can enjoy the system as much as you want but this fact is unquestionable. Good for you if you don't care

 

[ForceStealer]

So...I guess you can't play a game like Civilization? Or even Real Time Strategy games? Or board games? Or...really any game that has any sort of function that you don't deem as realistic?

And your statement that FFX's battle system "sucked ass" is not a commonly-held one.

 

[Tetsujin]

It has to follow the logic of its own world. Is FF7's logic that whenever you encounter an enemy you're brought into a 3D space where you take turns in a fight till death? That's obviously not the case as proven by other media from the Compilation. Most fiction follows real world logic and adds some differences (0-10%), which is the same with FF7. So yeah it's the same real world with some differences. You can't disregard all real world logic only because FF7 world is not real world.

It's called Gameplay-Story segregation and pretty much every game does this.

 

[Ⓐaron]

So when the original game "breaks suspension of disbelief" for you because of its graphics that's acceptable enough for you to join a forum devoted to it, but when the remake breaks suspension because of your arbitrary unwillingness to allow for gameplay and story segregation in games with realistic graphics, that's an unforgivable oversight? Seems legit.

FFX's battle system was by far the best thing about the game and the only thing about it I unconditionally enjoyed.

 

[Starling]

If real-world logic was fully applied to videogames, most of them wouldn't be possible. No oversized or unrealistic weapons, no magic, no airships, no aliens as depicted in most media, no faster than light travel and so on, leaving a rather limited selection. Applying too much realism to videogames can also make them boring or frustrating, as some elements of reality aren't conductive to a good gaming experience.

I think things like (link leads to tvtropes) gameplay and story segregation, where the gameplay doesn't necessarily reflect how the setting of the game works.

 

[Ⓐaron]

One other thing I should add is that the other entries in the FFVII series are internally inconsistent anyway. Various stuff has been retconned (Nibelheim reactor incident for example), games have radically different style battle systems, and the list goes on. If you're going to let the inconsistencies ruin the remake, but the inconsistencies don't ruin the other entries for you, then again, you're being inconsistent as well.

I should also add I'm not really sure how you can transform FFVII's battle system to a real-time system without radically transforming it so much as to be unrecognisable. I mean, yes, there are live-action games with spells and such. But the thing is, they're not entirely live-action. Secret of Mana and the like, in addition to taking you into menu rings to cast spells, have spell animations during which time characters can't do anything and various other incursions that make the game not really entirely real-time. Maybe there's some newer game that handles this in a different manner, but I honestly have no idea what it is. You can't just map a button to every spell, and if you're going to keep the complexity of the original game at all then you're going to have menus somewhere.

 

[hleV]

I want my character to be limited by FF7 world logic-based mechanics, not turn-based game mechanics.

Did I get tired? OK, make me slower or unable to make a dodge move.
Did I just swing my sword? Why do I have to wait till the opponent casts that slow-ass magic on me?

For a modern game with characters that have quite incredible abilities, that would be bullshit.

I've thought about an implementation of the option to go with action or turn-based mechanics, but I figure the effort to make this would be deemed unnecessary by SE.

FFX's battle system was by far the best thing about the game

I agree with this statement. Yet the battle system sucked ass nevertheless.

 

[Ⓐaron]

So why is it a problem for an FFVII remake to be constrained to turn-based mechanics, but not Crisis Core? You still haven't answered that. Crisis Core came after Advent Children but you haven't said a word about that breaking suspension of disbelief or whatever.

 

[hleV]

I wouldn't be fine with CC mechanics in the Remake neither. But at least it allowed to move/dodge during the fight, which helped to believe that perhaps that's how Zack fights.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Why are CC mechanics more acceptable in CC than they would be in the remake?

Also I don't care for either X or XIII