Argument split from gameplay/combat hopes thread

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
And we've moved on from discussing the topic onto discussing what people said and what they intended, yay :monster:. Could you guys take that to PM? Thanks. This argument has been going on back and forth for days now and it's not going anywhere. Move on to something else now plz.

^

:hugemonster:
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
Because only a couple of people agreed to it. If you still want it split I'll do it when I get back home though :monster:
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
Is this thread still in a meta state where people try to convince the others of what they meant and how they're misinterpreting each other and shit instead of the actual topic at hand or the points made?
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
As far as I can tell, the argument is over by virtue of hlev having no intention of responding and somehow thinking that he's right anyway.
 

Dragonslayer Ornstein

Pro Adventurer
I do feel Cover would be better represented by people actually blocking for others, if it's real time they'd probably add new types of materia. Teleporting to someone about to be attacked sounds unwieldy, for one if it works like in the old game that'd be automatic: someone you're allies with is hit so you teleport to them? That'd get in the way. A group shield or barrier materia would be cooler.
 

55-

Probably Evan Townshend
Dude if they could manage some way of making a party member actually LEAP in front of you to take a bullet for you, i would actually find that so delightful and fun to watch I would use that materia ALL THE TIME.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
I've mentioned later in the argument that KH 3D has a block command that teleports you to the ally in front of your ally if you use it just before they're hit, which gives you control more control over when it activates and functions in a way where you're neither character suffers damage. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like anyone took the time to showcase how it works so you'd have to either play the game yourself or dig through several LPs until you found an instance where someone uses it. Teleportation works better in this case as real-time combat would involve variable distances and positions which could cause problem for leaping is say, terrain elevation caused there to be a cliff in the way. Barrier would still be a separate thing from Cover.
 

Dragonslayer Ornstein

Pro Adventurer
I was suggesting more something like Mighty Guard, ha. That command in KH isn't necessarily Cover either, or is it called that?

Either way, I do agree with Hiev's assertion that a real time FFVII might have different materia to mesh better with the combat. Some new, some old. That doesn't mean it has to, it means it could.
 

55-

Probably Evan Townshend
It'd probably look hilarious. I won't lie that I'd find it fun. It'd still be cumbersome and unwieldy as fuck.
I never used cover in the original game because I didn't understand any circumstance under which I would ever want one party member to take the damage for two.

Why do you think it would be cumbersome? I'm assuming it would be an AI party member jumping in front of the player character. I don't think that would be any sort of a burden for the player, it would just be a fun meat shield.

Maybe I've been playing too much Borderlands. Might be better suited to them games.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
I was suggesting more something like Mighty Guard, ha. That command in KH isn't necessarily Cover either, or is it called that?

The Kingdom Hearts series uses commands, which are equippable magic and physical attacks which, in the later installments of the series, have unlimited uses besides the cooldown period. You're allotted a set number of slots to set it up like a deck. The BBS interface looks like
Command_Deck_KHBBS.PNG
when you're in the menu to modify it. Battle commands are the attacks you have access to, whereas action commands are things that allow for more diverse movement, dodging and counterattacks. If you stripped everything away, you'd only be able to run around and hit things. You start off with the basics such as jumping, blocking and dodging but you eventually get variations like Aqua's flaming cartwheel, high jump and blocks that have additional effects, such as the stop effect seen in the example of Aqua's block. KH2 had
Reflega_KHII.gif
and in BBS,
Stop_Barrier_KHBBS.gif
is basically a barrier spell she can spam almost constantly, which makes some sense since she's established as a skilled magic user. She can also counter with it if you have the Counter Blast command equipped to allow it, which is also shown.

It's also worth noting the D-link system in BBS grants passive abilities while in use, some of which are essentially spell effects that last as long as the D-link is active, which gradually runs out. Some of them include haste, shell and regen.

Either way, I do agree with Hiev's assertion that a real time FFVII might have different materia to mesh better with the combat. Some new, some old. That doesn't mean it has to, it means it could.
That wasn't the issue with hlev's argument though. I actually quite enjoy discussing how materia could be adapted to a real-time combat system. The issue was mostly that he presented it as if it was the only right way to go about the remake and his arguments were loaded with fallacies, pretty much ignoring most of what was being said to counter his arguments.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
I never used cover in the original game because I didn't understand any circumstance under which I would ever want one party member to take the damage for two.
Cover is a great materia to use if you want one character's limit break to raise faster then the other two, especially once you get access to the L4 limit breaks. I use Cover materia when limit break training and it goes a lot faster, and then again in late game to get off a lot more Omnislashs then usual. Just make sure the other characters have some type of healing materia on them.

So for me, Cover is less about protecting damage from other party members and more about making sure that one party member takes more damage then the other two.

Speaking of Limit Breaks, I really hope they figure out a way for all three party members to use their limit breaks whenever they want to so long as the conditions are right. 'Cause it was really annoying to only have access to one "limit break" in FFXIII and to only be able to use a "limit break" one time per battle in FFXIII-2.
 

Dragonslayer Ornstein

Pro Adventurer
I was suggesting more something like Mighty Guard, ha. That command in KH isn't necessarily Cover either, or is it called that?

The Kingdom Hearts series uses commands, which are equippable magic and physical attacks which, in the later installments of the series, have unlimited uses besides the cooldown period. You're allotted a set number of slots to set it up like a deck. The BBS interface looks like
Command_Deck_KHBBS.PNG
when you're in the menu to modify it. Battle commands are the attacks you have access to, whereas action commands are things that allow for more diverse movement, dodging and counterattacks. If you stripped everything away, you'd only be able to run around and hit things. You start off with the basics such as jumping, blocking and dodging but you eventually get variations like Aqua's flaming cartwheel, high jump and blocks that have additional effects, such as the stop effect seen in the example of Aqua's block. KH2 had
Reflega_KHII.gif
and in BBS,
Stop_Barrier_KHBBS.gif
is basically a barrier spell she can spam almost constantly, which makes some sense since she's established as a skilled magic user. She can also counter with it if you have the Counter Blast command equipped to allow it, which is also shown.

It's also worth noting the D-link system in BBS grants passive abilities while in use, some of which are essentially spell effects that last as long as the D-link is active, which gradually runs out. Some of them include haste, shell and regen.

Either way, I do agree with Hiev's assertion that a real time FFVII might have different materia to mesh better with the combat. Some new, some old. That doesn't mean it has to, it means it could.
That wasn't the issue with hlev's argument though. I actually quite enjoy discussing how materia could be adapted to a real-time combat system. The issue was mostly that he presented it as if it was the only right way to go about the remake and his arguments were loaded with fallacies, pretty much ignoring most of what was being said to counter his arguments.

I didn't say he was as smart about expressing it. I kinda just like mediating conflicts. His tone was very arrogant and dismissive, sure.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
Sorry for not bothering to address a portion of the hundreds of what-you-consider "points" thrown at me. I guess being lazy and preferring to spend time on something else makes me wrong.

And I'm not hieV :/
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
The number of points made were proportional to what you said. If you hadn't dismissed them and kept talking without addressing them for so long, they wouldn't have accumulated so much. If you're going to continue in a discussion, you can't just ignore what's said.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
I don't know, there's too much purple text in this thread for my taste. I don't consider many of the points you have provided worth the time (yes I took the time to read them). We weren't even discussing the remake anymore but what I wrote, how I wrote it and what I meant with it. Boring. Not interested being in defense any more. You haven't convinced me.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
I don't know, there's too much purple text in this thread for my taste. I don't consider many of the points you have provided worth the time (yes I took the time to read them). We weren't even discussing the remake anymore but what I wrote, how I wrote it and what I meant with it.

You ignored some pretty important points, such as the flaws in your arguments, all your contradictions and requests that you properly support your claims with more than your opinion. Honestly, the insinuation that you ignored what was said because too much of it was colored purple is just fishing for flimsy excuses for why you ignored it. If you take the time to read it and want to continue with the discussion, then it's only reasonable that you actually respond to what's brought up in the discussion you're taking part in. It' not really a proper discussion if you're ignoring the people talking to you.

It's pretty clear I put a lot more time and effort into reading the discussion and putting together my replies than you do, so I really don't see why it's so hard for you to take the time to actually respond to what's said if you're going to take the time to respond at all. If you're going to go back on your decision to leave it as it is, then I expect you to properly address what I've said.

We're discussing the issues people have with what you've said about how the remake should be handled. The subject is still relevant to the remake. The people who objected to what you said didn't necessarily have an issue with real-time combat so much as the way you treated it in relation to the OG's gameplay, as well as all the flaws in your arguments. As I said above, I actually enjoy discussing how gameplay would be adapted to a different system. My concerns are about changes being made without properly adapting existing material so the important stuff isn't lost in the process, which you didn't account for at all in the way you presented your claims.

Not interested being in defense any more. You haven't convinced me.

Actually, the burden of proof is on you to convince me of your claims.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
You ignored some what-I-consider-to-be pretty important points, such as what-I-consider-to-be the flaws in your arguments, all your what-I-consider-to-be contradictions and requests that you properly support your claims with more than your opinion.
Fixed.
Honestly, the insinuation that you ignored what was said because too much of it was colored purple is just fishing for flimsy excuses for why you ignored it.
You failed the test. Your text being purple has nothing to do with the reason I didn't respond, but your lack of insight once again prevented you from seeing that. I meant to disagree that the points thrown at me are proportional to what I myself wrote (as I see quite a lot of purple text). See? Once again I have to explain what I meant. Enough.
If you take the time to read it and want to continue with the discussion, then it's only reasonable that you actually respond to what's brought up in the discussion you're taking part in. It' not really a proper discussion if you're ignoring the people talking to you.
Discussing with you about what I wrote and what I meant and how you understood it is not something I'm interested in. Don't know how to say this clearer.
It's pretty clear I put a lot more time and effort into reading the discussion and putting together my replies than you do, so I really don't see why it's so hard for you to take the time to actually respond to what's said if you're going to take the time to respond at all. If you're going to go back on your decision to leave it as it is, then I expect you to properly address what I've said.
I only respond so as to let you know that you have not convinced me and the reasons for my lack of response.
We're discussing the issues people have with what you've said about how the remake should be handled. The subject is still relevant to the remake. The people who objected to what you said didn't necessarily have an issue with real-time combat so much as the way you treated it in relation to the OG's gameplay, as well as all the flaws in your arguments. As I said above, I actually enjoy discussing how gameplay would be adapted to a different system. My concerns are about changes being made without properly adapting existing material so the important stuff isn't lost in the process, which you didn't account for at all in the way you presented your claims.
I'm quoting this just so you wouldn't consider this part having been ignored. I don't know if any response is needed for this, I don't know what claims in particular you're talking about.
Actually, the burden of proof is on you to convince me of your claims.
I'm not interested in convincing anyone, and again I have no idea what what-you-consider-to-be claims you're on about.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
You ignored some what-I-consider-to-be pretty important points, such as what-I-consider-to-be the flaws in your arguments, all your what-I-consider-to-be contradictions and requests that you properly support your claims with more than your opinion.
Fixed.
Not fixed. You don't fucking ignore what people say when you're having a discussion, where one person says one thing, the other person offers their thoughts on it, proof is given to support claims and everyone actually listens to what the others are saying, which again, you aren't doing. Your arguments are fallacious and hypocritical, which makes them invalid for discussion. By failing to address that and adding even more fallacies in the process, you essentially concede the discussion by failure to hold up your end. Points made in a discussion, by virtue of being the subject of discussion, are important regardless of your opinion. I've also shown examples of you contradicting yourself, so it's more than just opinion.
hlev said:
Honestly, the insinuation that you ignored what was said because too much of it was colored purple is just fishing for flimsy excuses for why you ignored it.
You failed the test. Your text being purple has nothing to do with the reason I didn't respond, but your lack of insight once again prevented you from seeing that. I meant to disagree that the points thrown at me are proportional to what I myself wrote (as I see quite a lot of purple text). See? Once again I have to explain what I meant. Enough.
Missing the point. The way you've been treating what other people say, I have no reason not to treat that insinuation as if there's a chance you genuinely think the large quantities of purple text could be a good reason to devalue what's said, even if you say you've read it all anyway. What you're describing isn't a test, it's a red herring, which is considered a fallacy. Considering my posts turn what other people say purple, I had no reason to think you were talking about disagreeing with the proportion of text. When what I say takes up more space than what it's in response to, it's because proper elaboration often involving examples is necessary to properly address what's been said. Even then, the difference is still manageable. You can't blame someone for not getting the very specific meaning you're trying to convey when you fail to convey it properly, as is shown here. Considering how much I've had to repeat myself due to your refusal to listen, your condescension about having to explain yourself when I've already said you don't explain yourself properly and make use of unclear wording for what you claim to be what you're actually trying to say seems rather unreasonable.
hlev said:
If you take the time to read it and want to continue with the discussion, then it's only reasonable that you actually respond to what's brought up in the discussion you're taking part in. It's not really a proper discussion if you're ignoring the people talking to you.
Discussing with you about what I wrote and what I meant and how you understood it is not something I'm interested in. Don't know how to say this clearer.
Well too fucking bad because the flaws in your arguments need to be addressed before this discussion can move forward.
hlev said:
It's pretty clear I put a lot more time and effort into reading the discussion and putting together my replies than you do, so I really don't see why it's so hard for you to take the time to actually respond to what's said if you're going to take the time to respond at all. If you're going to go back on your decision to leave it as it is, then I expect you to properly address what I've said.
I only respond so as to let you know that you have not convinced me and the reasons for my lack of response.
Again, you have the burden of proof, which means you have to convince me of your arguments. Ignoring my examples is on you, not me. If you're going to take the time to respond about what's been said, then continuing to ignore what's been said to reaffirm your claim that you refuse to listen to what's being said in a discussion where you're supposed to listen to what's being said is effectively wasting everyone's time. And in case it isn't blatant enough for you, the repetition is very much deliberate.
hlev said:
We're discussing the issues people have with what you've said about how the remake should be handled. The subject is still relevant to the remake. The people who objected to what you said didn't necessarily have an issue with real-time combat so much as the way you treated it in relation to the OG's gameplay, as well as all the flaws in your arguments. As I said above, I actually enjoy discussing how gameplay would be adapted to a different system. My concerns are about changes being made without properly adapting existing material so the important stuff isn't lost in the process, which you didn't account for at all in the way you presented your claims.
I'm quoting this just so you wouldn't consider this part having been ignored. I don't know if any response is needed for this, I don't know what claims in particular you're talking about.
I am explaining to you why this argument happened in the first place and why addressing what you're saying is important. If you hadn't ignored my posts we'd still have things directly related to the remake's gameplay in this discussion. As for the claims I'm referring to, clearly you need to review the discussion, which now that it has its own thread, should be much easier to do, with special attention to the posts you never properly responded to.
hlev said:
Actually, the burden of proof is on you to convince me of your claims.
I'm not interested in convincing anyone, and again I have no idea what what-you-consider-to-be claims you're on about.
If you're going to consider my claims invalid, then you need to prove they aren't rather than simply dismiss them because you don't think they're worth your time. That's not how discussions work.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
I have received a warning for my previous post. I have re-read it multiple times and simply do not see the part where I'm being a dick, especially considering the way you write. This is another reason for me to just stop this.

See you on other topics.
 
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