Argument split from gameplay/combat hopes thread

[Ⓐaron]

I sort of feel like it's more important to make gameplay decisions based on what's fun rather than what's realistic. The two aren't always mutually inclusive.

 

[Octo]

Take my materia?!

 

[Wolf_]

^awesome

 

[hleV]

I don't find lack of logic that fun. Perhaps in an environment that didn't pretend to be at all serious and realistic, I wouldn't mind. In a photorealistic version of FF7? I want my damn logic, in gameplay and otherwise.

 

[Ⓐaron]

But... FFVII doesn't pretend to be realistic? We don't live on a planet where the dead can communicate to us through the Lifestream. We don't live on a planet where the energy of dead people can be used to cast literal magic spells. We don't live on a planet where people can fall literally half a mile and survive. We don't live on a planet where people can jump several times their height. I could go on. FFVII doesn't pretend to be a realistic setting, so expecting realism out of the combat when it's already repeatedly been shown to be unrealistic is just selectively disregarding aspects of the setting.

 

[Tetsujin]

I don't find lack of logic that fun.

Well thank god most of us aren't Vulcans.

 

[hleV]

But... FFVII doesn't pretend to be realistic? We don't live on a planet where the dead can communicate to us through the Lifestream.

No, FF7 doesn't pretend to be set in our world. It still has logic. The OG's gameplay does not include it. Back in OG's days, have you seriously considered all the lego characters to be realistic portrayals of what they're supposed to look like? No. Same goes for the gameplay. If the Remake fixes one, it would be a waste if it didn't try to fix the other as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I forgot gameplay has to be a 1:1 representation of the way events can be expected to have played out in the world of the setting. That's why people obviously roll dice to determine damage and character traits in the setting of Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[Starling]

Considering gameplay is what I dislike the most about OG (seriously I only put up with it the first time because I wanted to finish the awesome story) it would be a disaster for me.

Many people don't share that opinion.

Because the former don't make sense. How would that work in a real, non-game situation?

As has been stated already, that is irrelevant.

Abilities that you should be able to achieve by skill, not a selection from the menu.

Nobody has. It cannot be a real-time combat if you are not the one doing the combat.

Xenoblade Chronicles has real-time combat with auto-attacks. Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep has abilities that once unlocked, can be toggled on or off and are not linked to your level progression.

 

[hleV]

Many people don't share that opinion.

No way?! If you think I'm THAT stupid that you have to tell me this, one would figure you would just stop replying.

As has been stated already, that is irrelevant.

It is relevant to what I'm discussing.

Xenoblade Chronicles has real-time combat with auto-attacks. Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep has abilities that once unlocked, can be toggled on or off and are not linked to your level progression.

So are they real-time combat games or games with auto-attacks? If both, then that's only semi-real-time. They could be generalized as real-time action games, but auto attacks are not real-time, so I'm not sure what is your point.

 

[Octo]

I'm no fan of turn based battles, or strategy, but I'm pretty much shit at action games anyway.

I wouldn't mind some sort of hybrid, like Secret of mana, where you can program the other characters but also give them specific commands - although battle pauses while commands are selected. I guess it would look a bit like Bayonetta or DmC if it was going to mirror all the acrobatic stuff you see in AC. Not sure how I feel about that.

 

[Ⓐaron]

No way?! If you think I'm THAT stupid that you have to tell me this, one would figure you would just stop replying.

You're coming across as if you believe your preferences are the only ones Square Enix should pay attention to when remaking the game. You don't speak for all Final Fantasy VII fans.

It is relevant to what I'm discussing.

Really? It's relevant that people can't turn into frogs or perfectly replicate others' actions in the real world? Because I thought we were talking about how FFVII's setting doesn't mimic reality.

So are they real-time combat games or games with auto-attacks? If both, then that's only semi-real-time. They could be generalized as real-time action games, but auto attacks are not real-time, so I'm not sure what is your point.

I realise Wikipedia isn't the be-all and end all of video game sources, but:

Xenoblade Chronicles has a real-time action-based battle system, where the player manually moves the current lead character in real-time, and party members will "auto-attack" when enemies enter their attack radius, most comparable to the system found in Final Fantasy XII or many MMORPGs.

 

[Wolf_]

I suggest you should skip the remake and get battlefield instead. Although you take a few bullets to go down. Not very realistic..

 

[hleV]

You're coming across as if you believe your preferences are the only ones Square Enix should pay attention to when remaking the game. You don't speak for all Final Fantasy VII fans.

I spoke for myself. The quoted text (initial one, forum doesn't do nested quotes) quite clearly indicates that.

Really? It's relevant that people can't turn into frogs or perfectly replicate others' actions in the real world? Because I thought we were talking about how FFVII's setting doesn't mimic reality.

So you're telling me that in FF7, there actually is materia that does that? I don't know, seems like gameplay-exclusive stuff to me.

I realise Wikipedia isn't the be-all and end all of video game sources, but:

So your controlled character does real-time stuff while others are AI. That's is absolutely fine. What was the argument about?

I suggest you should skip the remake and get battlefield instead. Although you take a few bullets to go down. Not very realistic..

I suggest you stop giving silly suggestions.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I spoke for myself. The quoted text (initial one, forum doesn't do nested quotes) quite clearly indicates that.

You've made blanket statements such as "the former doesn't make sense" that certainly seem to be speaking for more than yourself. I can see how Starling would have read your posts that way.

So you're telling me that in FF7, there actually is materia that does that? I don't know, seems like gameplay-exclusive stuff to me.

Evidently there is such materia in FFVII's setting.

So your controlled character does real-time stuff while others are AI. That's is absolutely fine. What was the argument about?

You asked whether Xenoblade Chronicles was an action RPG. I answered your question.

 

[Flare]

I think all the materia is realistic in a world like VII. Frogs can tap you and turn you into frogs, so why not materia? You can summon great, powerful creatures that warp enemies to their own dimension and obliterate them. You can have these immensely powerful Limit Breaks that do various things, so having materia that gives your sword a long range attack like blade beam works. Exit can teleport you away from the enemy you're fighting. I mean, magic exists in that world; these things are obviously possible.

Just putting in my 22 cents.

 

[hleV]

You've made blanket statements such as "the former doesn't make sense"

Except that she quoted a very specific part of the text I wrote. Anyway, I stand by my words. It does not make sense in a realistic portrayal of FF7 world. There's no such thing ever shown outside of pure gameplay, so the conclusion is obvious, unless you reaaally wanna go there and argue "it simply wasn't shown" only to prove a point you cling to so desparately, instead of being real and accepting what's way more likely.

Evidently there is such materia in FFVII's setting.

Evidently, encounters throw you into another space and force you to take turns in FF7's setting. Wait, that's absolutely not the case! Why wouldn't it apply to illogical materia, too?

 

[Wolf_]

Can we all stop feeding the troll...

 

[Ⓐaron]

Except that she quoted a very specific part of the text I wrote. Anyway, I stand by my words. It does not make sense in a realistic portrayal of FF7 world. There's no such thing ever shown outside of pure gameplay, so the conclusion is obvious, unless you reaaally wanna go there and argue "it simply wasn't shown" only to prove a point you cling to so desparately, instead of being real and accepting what's way more likely.

It's a good thing that the game designers quite obviously weren't going for a "realistic portrayal" then.

Evidently, encounters throw you into another space and force you to take turns in FF7's setting. Wait, that's absolutely not the case! Why wouldn't it apply to illogical materia, too?

Because there's nothing "illogical" about people turning into frogs in FFVII's setting, and there's nothing "illogical" about the spell to turn people into frogs being cast with the aid of materia. Since player characters can't in fact cast the transform spells without the materia, it stands to reason that the materia in fact is the direct cause of the player characters being able to do so.

 

[hleV]

Exclude Transform materia from your arguments. Like I pointed out, I simply do not find it cool or fit for Remake. It's a personal opinion.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I just used Transform as an example. Every single ability provided by materia is performable only when the character has the materia equipped. It stands to reason that the materia is the cause of the character being able to perform the action. There's nothing "illogical" about this in the context of VII's setting; your personal distaste for the mechanic is irrelevant to the argument.

 

[Tetsujin]

Evidently, encounters throw you into another space and force you to take turns in FF7's setting. Wait, that's absolutely not the case! Why wouldn't it apply to illogical materia, too?

What's illogical about magic spells in a world that has...magic spells...?

You have materia that controls the elements, you have materia that throws giant space rocks at the planet, you have horsebirds, your tv runs on energy harnessed from the souls of the dead and yet to be born, there's spirits of the Ancients that look like funny little wizards with pointy hats and RedXIII is a wolf/lion-hybrid that speaks and basically the entire world is full of magic, wonder and miracles but materia transforming people into frogs is where you draw the line?

This is why your 'logic' argument makes no sense, because you're drawing your own arbitrary lines here, not making arguments based on 'logic'.

 

[hleV]

... C'mon. Transform materia would work, I just don't want it to be in. I said that in my previous posts.

That's why I ask you to use something else so I wouldn't have to argue pointlessly.

 

[hleV]

I assume it's a remotely controlled robot? I don't mind him.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Transform materia would work, I just don't want it to be in. I said that in my previous posts.

Because the former don't make sense. How would that work in a real, non-game situation?

(sorry, couldn't resist )