I already gave examples why it doesn't make sense when compared to the real setting. What is "when gameplay and story segregation is taken into account"? It's a term used for inconsistency between gameplay and story. Why would it be taken into account? I want that incosinstency lessened (greatly) because that would make the game look more realistic.
Leaving Starling for later. I'm at work now and don't have the change to focus on one thing for too long, and I prefer writing a post in one go so as not to forget what I'm writing about.
Because it’s a fucking game. The whole point of a game is to be fun, and as I pointed out, sometimes this contradicts real-world logic. If you’re looking for perfect internal consistency, you’re in the wrong medium.
Besides, it’s already been demonstrated that the internal consistency of FFVII is much, much greater than you’ve been claiming it is, yet you go on making those claims as though they hadn’t just been demolished.
I don’t even much care whether the remake uses turn-based combat or not, as long as they don’t remove any content, but your arguments against it are just weak.
Are we not simply arguing over an opinion? Ergo it will be never ending. We all have our own personal wants or wishes that we should express by all means but they are opinions only so can't we just accept we all like different things and move on? Remember, there's no such thing as a correct opinion... Unless it's mine.
I'm well aware that his arguments have more holes than a teabag I just don't fancy getting banned with the response I was originally going to put. Be the adult and walk away from it. I understand what you both are saying and I would like both. I want action but if it comes at the expense of taking the material system away I'd rather loose the Immersion and play something I know I like.
Because a little consistency would undoubtedly impact how enjoyable the gameplay is? I'm not looking for perfect internal consistency, as that would cause the gameplay to be scripted.
Like I pointed out, I don't particularly like the OG's system, although I can objectively say that for a non-active battle system, it is quite good. But I like doing things real-time. Moving, jumping, reacting, timing your attacks... that's what FF7 setting portrays, to me anyway. I would like to do that stuff in the Remake. I got OG for the old system.
What is "content"? If you get active battle system, do you still consider Counter Attack, Cover and things like that "content"? They're redundant because they're implemented into the new system.
And I have no idea what claims that supposedly been demolished you're talking about.
The first rule of remaking a game is that you don’t remove content. If Square Enix were to take your suggestions into account, they’d have to remove a ton of content. And yes, the many, many examples of materia whose inclusion you’ve protested certainly count as content. There would be no Transform, no Cover, no W-Summon, the list goes on. You’ve protested practically half the materia in the game, if not more.
And yes, adhering to your standards of consistency would certainly damage the enjoyability of the gameplay, because you seem to regard even the slightest internal consistency regarding gameplay as a breaker of suspension of belief, when the overwhelming majority of fans simply don’t give a shit.
Do you really want me to go quote the many claims Starling has demolished? Because I will, but it would probably just result in me quoting her whole post.
Where can I read game remaking rules?
I do not suggest removing content. I'm saying that if we get a particular gameplay system I have in mind, some content loses its purpose and it makes sense for it to be removed as it has been re-added in a different way.
Like pointed out multiple times, I simply don't like Transform.
Cover is redundant if you're in an active battle system, unless the system doesn't allow you to move fast enough to defend your allies.
W-Summon is fine.
I probably didn't protest not even against 10% of the OG materia.
I don't regard even the slightest internal consistency regarding gameplay as a breaker of suspension of belief. Remember when I said leveling and exping is fine?
It is quite incredible how wrong you are about... everything. Starling does a better job, but you probably failed to understand her as well, besides that she's on your side of thought, which is that I'm wrong about something.
There’s no “official” game remaking rules; it’s just widely agreed that removing content from a remake is not cricket.
Like pointed out multiple times, I simply don't like Transform.
Cover is redundant if you're in an active battle system, unless the system doesn't allow you to move fast enough to defend your allies.
W-Summon is fine.
I probably didn't protest not even against 10% of the OG materia.
OP materia like Enemy Skill, Mime (alone in the party, limit break, mime, profit), Destruct, Full Cure, Final Attack, W-Summon. Let alone loads of other nonsensical materia (most Command materia is for gameplay reasons so you can do certain actions which could be available without materia if the game had real-time action combat... W-Item? You need materia to use 2 items? Really?). You're just fooling yourselfes if you think all the materia in-game is legit. If I had to guess, only magic and summon materia (and perhaps some of Support materia) could be considered legit, though summons attacks would go differently if it was made for a photorealistic game and not just to look cool.
That’s a shitload of content you wanted removed. You’re claiming you don’t want all that removed anymore?
I don't regard even the slightest internal consistency regarding gameplay as a breaker of suspension of belief. Remember when I said leveling and exping is fine?
Experience and levels don’t cause gameplay and story segregation since it does in fact logically follow that a character would get better at combat after doing more of it. So this isn’t in fact a case of you being okay with internal inconsistency.
It is quite incredible how wrong you are about... everything. Starling does a better job, but you probably failed to understand her as well, besides that she's on your side of thought, which is that I'm wrong about something.
If you incorporate the ability to do the same thing via a button or combination of them rather having to use materia for that, it doesn't count as removal of content.
That materia list was about it being OP-yet-not-used-outside-gameplay (because it would help to easily overcome any obstacle). However I agree that it can be explained by the cast canonically not having access to it (rather than it not existing), like I believe you pointed out yourself.
Why is me pointing out that you're wrong hilarious? You really are wrong. It's as if you interpreted everything I wrote the way you did just so you could argue.
Less useful materia not appearing outside of gameplay can be explained by it being... less useful. OP materia as that would destroy everything and we would hardly have FF7 and Compilation as it is if that stuff actually existed/behaved the same way outside of gameplay.
You’d spent the entire thread complaining about things you said were “illogical” and saying they should be removed, and suddenly you’re saying you brought up something you perceived as an inconsistency (because it would “destroy everything”) that you didn’t want removed? I’m pretty sure everyone else in this thread interpreted you the same way I did, judging from the responses your posts got.
So yeah, once again, the Turk pic is relevant:
I’m obviously not wrong about "everything" if you can’t even provide a coherent response to my point about experience and levels.
Removing some Materia like Cover and W-Summon aren't real losses because of how they wouldn't really fit into an action RPG anyway. You could try to shoehorn them in but it wouldn't be for any other reason than to "not remove content". You can't expect every part of gameplay to remain the same when you change the very fundamentals of the battle system.
It certainly does. Just because you've killed a lot of other enemies doesn't mean your strikes will become 500 times more effective. Let's forget about the gameplay, if VII were a film would you ever expect the party of three who's attacks were ineffective against a Midgar Zolom at the start of their journey, and are astounded at Sephiroth's power, to not long later be taking it down with a single punch?
You also don't get much fighting experience from giving an item to a Magic Pot.
There's also gameplay/story segregation with enemies becoming more difficult as you progress through the world despite people in Mideel being no more prepared for monsters than those in Kalm.
I should also point out, on top of that, that most of these materia you claim would be useless in a real-time combat system really wouldn’t. I already pointed out why Escape would be useful (many enemies would be too quick to run away from), and Protect, Cover, Counter Attack, etc. would still be applicable to non-player-controlled characters, unless you’re going to propose some way a player can control three characters at the same time in a real-time combat system.
It certainly does. Just because you've killed a lot of other enemies doesn't mean your strikes will become 500 times more effective. Let's forget about the gameplay, if VII were a film would you ever expect the party of three who's attacks were ineffective against a Midgar Zolom at the start of their journey, and are astounded at Sephiroth's power, to not long later be taking it down with a single punch?
If they trained like hell, then yes, I would. It probably requires hundreds or even thousands of battles to get from the level where a Midgar Zolom wipes you out to the level where you can wipe out a Midgar Zolom in one hit, and moreover you have to beat a lot of enemies who are much more difficult than anything you’ve been fighting to get to that point. That certainly qualifies as a shitload of training to me. You’re acting like the transition happens almost instantaneously. I can assure you that it doesn’t.
Furthermore, while the proportion of power the party gains from fighting more difficult enemies may still be unrealistic, the general principle of becoming more powerful by fighting enemies is certainly not. It’s pretty much an accepted principle in social sciences that it takes ten thousand hours of practise at any given skill to master it. This is exactly what is being represented in gameplay, and in fact represents a form of gameplay and story integration.
You also don't get much fighting experience from giving an item to a Magic Pot.
Well, I’ll concede that that part is stupid.
There's also gameplay/story segregation with enemies becoming more difficult as you progress through the world despite people in Mideel being no more prepared for monsters than those in Kalm.
I’m not sure where this contradicts anything I said in the quoted text. I’ll concede this isn’t explained in-story, but it doesn’t need to be because, once again, it’s a damn game.
Wanted it removed? Of course. I still do. Why would you care? I didn't suggest that though or enforce it on anyone as the only valid thing to do. The argument was about it not really fitting into the setting due to it being quite illogical even by FF7 standarts, which is why I would prefer it not being in the Remake. I have provided you my valid reasoning. I don't care if it doesn't count as good enough reasoning to you, it's good enough for me to wish it didn't make into Remake.
I’m obviously not wrong about "everything" if you can’t even provide a coherent response to my point about experience and levels.
Stats don't really make sense. The events in the game don't last so long that the characters would noticeably become so much more powerful. While I would find it fun to have to overcome the obstacles with just skill and items that I've attained over time rather than stats, FF7 is still an RPG in heart and that would change the game beyond recognision.
I should also point out, on top of that, that most of these materia you claim would be useless in a real-time combat system really wouldn’t. I already pointed out why Escape would be useful (many enemies would be too quick to run away from), and Protect, Cover, Counter Attack, etc. would still be applicable to non-player-controlled characters
Not in the action battle system I have in mind, one that emphasizes skill of character control nearly as much as passive stats and acquired items/materia. Allowing player to have access to such materia would make the game worse.
Really? It doesn't make sense that after literally hundreds or even thousands of enemy encounters the characters would be way more powerful than they were at the beginning of the game? While we can quibble with the proportion of power they gain, the fact that the party gains a significant amount of strength over the course of the game is inarguably logical.
Not in the action battle system I have in mind, one that emphasizes skill of character control nearly as much as passive stats and acquired items/materia.
Me wanting it removed was never a question. You said that I suggested its removal (as if it's the only valid choice), which is wrong. Here you go. You're wrong.
And yet I've shown that most of this is in fact quite logical in VII's setting
Wrong. Again. Materia is not conscious (yeah, spirits and all, but not conscious in the way you'd need to explain the weird way it works in OG). It does not know that your friend is under attack, so it could teleport you to them. Materia does not randomly allow you to use 2 summons, because in the actual setting there is no such limit to begin with. I don't remember the last time I used Exit, was the effect of running away or disappearing from battle? If it's the latter, well, it's possible I guess but nothing suggests such ability being ever used by or available to anyone in OG (or am I missing something?).
Really? It doesn't make sense that after literally hundreds or even thousands of enemy encounters the characters would be way more powerful than they were at the beginning of the game? While we can quibble with the proportion of power they gain, the fact that the party gains a significant amount of strength over the course of the game is inarguably logical.
You did suggest its removal, and I didn't say you suggested it "as if it's the only valid choice"; I did say you acted like other people were illogical for disagreeing with you. Here is what I said with which you evidently took exception:
If Square Enix were to take your suggestions into account, they’d have to remove a ton of content. And yes, the many, many examples of materia whose inclusion you’ve protested certainly count as content.
Your suggestions. Nothing in there about being the only valid choice. You fail at reading comprehension, evidently.
Materia is not conscious (yeah, spirits and all, but not conscious in the way you'd need to explain the weird way it works in OG). It does not know that your friend is under attack, so it could teleport you to them.
Why exactly is it illogical for something that is utterly magical to be able to detect that a friend is under attack? We already know mind control exists in FFVII's universe (Cloud is controlled by Sephiroth several times in the story, such as when he beats up Aerith and when he gives the Black Materia to Sephiroth), so the thought that they'd be able to detect the presence of minds and know they're in danger is not exactly out of character with the setting.
I don't remember the last time I used Exit, was the effect of running away or disappearing from battle?
It's like the combat equivalent of an escape rope. There are two spells: one causes you to leave the fight, and one causes your opponent to leave the fight. I believe they're Exit and Remove, respectively.
If it's the latter, well, it's possible I guess but nothing suggests such ability being ever used by or available to anyone in OG (or am I missing something?).
I never said that it wasn't sped up for the purposes of gameplay, so I'm not exactly sure why you're contradicting me. Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing in VII's universe that suggests people in the setting can't gain combat prowess more rapidly than they do in the real world, so you have not even demonstrated that this is a case of gameplay and story segregation.
Not in the action battle system I have in mind, one that emphasizes skill of character control nearly as much as passive stats and acquired items/materia. Allowing player to have access to such materia would make the game worse.
The OG turn-based system does a pretty good of balancing the bolded part already. The player both has to equip materia on characters based on what goes well with their stats and also has to choose when in battle the characters use those abilities. Once a battle system becomes an active system, stats take a back seat to character control. And stat manipulation has been at the heart of the FF series for a very, very long time. Preferring character control over stat manipulation for games that aren't FFVII isn't a bad move on SE's part if that is the direction they're going (but if they are going in that direction, I'm not buying more of their games). But for FFVII? It would be suicide. For all the people who played the OG, the battle system was one of the best parts of it. Fiddling to much with it (and in the wrong way) is going to be a huge mental turn-off and given that SE knows that they're on thin ice here, I don't think they're going to want to risk it.
Whom am I suggesting the removal of certain materia to? You? SE? From the quote below I took it that you believe I'm pushing my opinion as fact, so yet again you're wrong.
You have indeed pushed your opinion as fact when you've claimed things are "illogical" or "don't make sense" and many other times. But if you're not going to bother providing coherent responses to me (or, for that matter, any responses to Starling), then I won't bother doing the same for you either.
hlev, your responses don't look like you've even read my previous post before trying to refute what The Man said right under it. If you really did have the better part of that discussion while at work, you probably would've been better off waiting until you had the time to think things through better.
It can always be acceptable. The question is by whom and how much. Back in the day the graphics weren't good and we used to play as these chibi characters. That alone lets us understand that things aren't potrayed realistically (the reason would be technical limits, creators' desire to keep it that way or something else, it doesn't matter). This allows one to ignore all the silly things and simply enjoy the game the way it is. Because who cares, right?
You fail to address the point that real-time combat existed before even Zelda II, meaning they were perfectly capable of using it instead of turn-based combat even back then but chose not to.
I already gave examples why it doesn't make sense when compared to the real setting. What is "when gameplay and story segregation is taken into account"? It's a term used for inconsistency between gameplay and story. Why would it be taken into account? I want that incosinstency lessened (greatly) because that would make the game look more realistic.
Considering gameplay is what I dislike the most about OG (seriously I only put up with it the first time because I wanted to finish the awesome story) it would be a disaster for me.
I want my character to be limited by FF7 world logic-based mechanics, not turn-based game mechanics.
Did I get tired? OK, make me slower or unable to make a dodge move.
Did I just swing my sword? Why do I have to wait till the opponent casts that slow-ass magic on me?
For a modern game with characters that have quite incredible abilities, that would be bullshit.
FFX (one of the few other FF games I played) had PS2 graphics and its battle system sucked ass because it was turn-based and still had random encounters. How can the game appear real, be set in a 3D space, and be so damn illogical? Because it's made for people who enjoy such battle system enough to disregard its lack of logic. And I'm all about logic.
But I like doing things real-time. Moving, jumping, reacting, timing your attacks... that's what FF7 setting portrays, to me anyway. I would like to do that stuff in the Remake. I got OG for the old system.
I do not suggest removing content. I'm saying that if we get a particular gameplay system I have in mind, some content loses its purpose and it makes sense for it to be removed as it has been re-added in a different way.
If you're going to say things like that, you need to follow through with a proper explanation of what you have in mind and how all the content is kept. Otherwise, such an argument holds no weight.
Why did you even list it as an example if it didn't fit with your reasons for not wanting the other materia you named in the game? Because it's way too unreal sounds a lot like when you call things "illogical". You must've known lumping it in with the ones you don't admit to wanting removed out of preference would've resulted in it being brought up when refuting your claim.
Actually, I've seen similar mechanics in real-time combat. You can have a button prompt to teleport in front of your ally. The cover materia would still be a materia you slot into your equipment.
Materia such as Mime, Cover, Long Range, Transform (way too unreal), Exit, Added Cut, Magic Counter would not go well with mechanics where you can move and attack when you want, as it would be making automated actions for you. But even with that I would be fine as long as I don't have to wait because the game said so.
OP materia like Enemy Skill, Mime (alone in the party, limit break, mime, profit), Destruct, Full Cure, Final Attack, W-Summon. Let alone loads of other nonsensical materia (most Command materia is for gameplay reasons so you can do certain actions which could be available without materia if the game had real-time action combat... W-Item? You need materia to use 2 items? Really?). You're just fooling yourselfes if you think all the materia in-game is legit. If I had to guess, only magic and summon materia (and perhaps some of Support materia) could be considered legit, though summons attacks would go differently if it was made for a photorealistic game and not just to look cool.
You wanted to remove pretty much everything other than magic materia you listed and summons. Going only by the ones you named (except Transform), that's a minimum of 12 materia you want removed.
The OG has 83 materia: 17 Summon (20%), 22 Magic (27%), 14 Command (17%), 13 Support (16%) and 17 Independent (20%). 8 materia is the most you can remove from the game before you reach 10%. Just removing Support, the group with the lowest number, is 16%. Going by what you've said, you want anywhere from 14%-55% of the OG's materia removed and that's not even counting Ultima, Contain, Master Magic, Master Summon, Knights of the Round, Revive and Comet, which would bring it up to 64%. So yes, you've protested far more than 10% of the OG's materia. What's your issue with Destruct anyway? The Death spell? The only other thing it has are DeBarrier and DeSpell.
I don't regard even the slightest internal consistency regarding gameplay as a breaker of suspension of belief.Remember when I said leveling and exping is fine?
That is literally the only gameplay element you accepted in the entire discussion we've had on this thread. Everything else you called too unrealistic and "illogical", as if gameplay and story segregation is unacceptable.
It is quite incredible how wrong you are about... everything. Starling does a better job, but you probably failed to understand her as well, besides that she's on your side of thought, which is that I'm wrong about something.
You really need to learn to own up to your mistakes and contradictions. You can't rely on disrespecting the people you're replying to simply because you don't have anything better to say. Both me and The Man actually back up our claims, unlike you.
If you incorporate the ability to do the same thing via a button or combination of them rather having to use materia for that, it doesn't count as removal of content.
Why is me pointing out that you're wrong hilarious? You really are wrong. It's as if you interpreted everything I wrote the way you did just so you could argue.
Why hello pot, how are you today? It seems you've been going around calling kettles black again. I'm pretty sure I've pointed out how that's not a way to argue with people if you expect to make a point that actually goes anywhere, let alone be taken seriously.
Oh, I don't know, maybe because the two of you are currently having a discussion, which involves paying attention to what the other participants are saying. Don't deflect the subject.
I didn't suggest that though or enforce it on anyone as the only valid thing to do. The argument was about it not really fitting into the setting due to it being quite illogical even by FF7 standarts, which is why I would prefer it not being in the Remake.
While I would find it fun to have to overcome the obstacles with just skill and items that I've attained over time rather than stats, FF7 is still an RPG in heart and that would change the game beyond recognision.
As this is a remake rather than a completely new game, they have to keep in mind the original when they make changes. FF7's turn-based system allowed for a lot of options in what you could do in combat, which might not translate well into a real-time combat system, where that many options to scroll through would hinder your ability to respond quickly. If they were to solve that problem by reducing the variety of options you have access to at a time, you'd probably end up losing part of what was great about the turn-based system
The combat system of the OG was made with turn-based combat in mind. Even if they plan to overhaul a bunch of stuff in the remake, one of the core rules of remaking a game is that you don't remove content. Some elements of the turn-based system wouldn't mesh well with a real-time combat system and I worry too much would be lost in transition. For example, once you have weapons with a decent number of materia slots, you can end up with a materia set up that gives you a number of options that would be difficult to allow in real-time combat without having to scroll through a long menu. I don't want to lose the ability to access that much variety in a fight.
Applying too much realism to videogames can also make them boring or frustrating, as some elements of reality aren't conductive to a good gaming experience.
If videogame mechanics had to accede to your insistence that they function like the real world, it'd be extremely limiting to the variety currently present in videogames.
As I've already said, yes, some materia are in the game for gameplay function. No, that doesn't mean they should be removed on the basis of not being realistic enough. The materia was basically made to allow players to set up characters however they'd like, not being constrained to the setup of a given class or job like in other FF games, but still giving you the option to do that if you want. It's a level of freedom of customization that you can't just restrict without lessening the quality of the game.
As a remake of FF7, it wouldn't make sense for it to just throw everything to the wind as if it's an original game coming out for the first time. It's not, and therefore must remain faithful to the original with all the changes it makes.
Not in the action battle system I have in mind, one that emphasizes skill of character control nearly as much as passive stats and acquired items/materia.
As The Engineer has said, the OG's battle system did a good job of those things. As for the battle system you have in mind, you need to elaborate on that if you want it to be relevant. Otherwise, it basically doesn't exist.
Me wanting it removed was never a question. You said that I suggested its removal (as if it's the only valid choice), which is wrong. Here you go. You're wrong.
Wrong. Again. Materia is not conscious (yeah, spirits and all, but not conscious in the way you'd need to explain the weird way it works in OG). It does not know that your friend is under attack, so it could teleport you to them. Materia does not randomly allow you to use 2 summons, because in the actual setting there is no such limit to begin with. I don't remember the last time I used Exit, was the effect of running away or disappearing from battle? If it's the latter, well, it's possible I guess but nothing suggests such ability being ever used by or available to anyone in OG (or am I missing something?).
There's this thing called magic. Ever heard of it? I don't recall materia having to be sentient in order to function. When individuals are fighting together, good teamwork means they'd be aware of when their allies are in trouble. That's all Cover materia needs in order to take effect.
It wouldn't be too absurd to think Summons have a cool-off period of some sort that limits how often you can use it.
The exit spell is also known as warp and teleport throughout other FF games. It's also present in Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep. Knowing that, it's pretty obvious it functions by teleporting either you or your opponent outside of battle. Like I said, it's possible that Ifalna used Exit in order to escape Shinra HQ with Aerith, though we'll never know for sure.
Certain materia would have to be sacrificed for the sake of making the gameplay more logical, but that doesn't mean they can't introduce something new to accommodate for that.
Non-real-time battle system fails to portray the battles the way they actually may have happened within the story, instead it portrays them the way they definitely didn't happen. You can enjoy the system as much as you want but this fact is unquestionable. Good for you if you don't care
