It's easier to take Barret's character out of context with his very limited role in Advent Children, so I wasn't really counting it - also because the guy in the article I was critiquing was only referring to the original game.
Barret is not &#^$ing racist
- Thread starter ForceStealer
- Start date
Splintered
unsavory tart
His English is broken, but I was remember hearing the argument that this was entirely the fault of the localization team, and that it didn't happen in the Japanese. But I don't know where they got it from.
That said, you could easily make the argument that broken English is more of a show of not being entirely educated rather than being something like ignorant, because Barret is not ignorant, he's one of the few people that understand the impacts of mako on the environment. But his lack of education makes sense considering he grew up in a poor, blue collar(?) coal mining town, that wouldn't be much need or opportunity for education. And it's not out of place in Midgar, where we routinely see drunks, brothels, run down houses, asshole thieves that steal your damn potions, and shady salesmen.
Although it's more probable just a few guys thought it would give Barret's dialogue an extra flavor and didn't think of the implications down the road.
That said, you could easily make the argument that broken English is more of a show of not being entirely educated rather than being something like ignorant, because Barret is not ignorant, he's one of the few people that understand the impacts of mako on the environment. But his lack of education makes sense considering he grew up in a poor, blue collar(?) coal mining town, that wouldn't be much need or opportunity for education. And it's not out of place in Midgar, where we routinely see drunks, brothels, run down houses, asshole thieves that steal your damn potions, and shady salesmen.
Although it's more probable just a few guys thought it would give Barret's dialogue an extra flavor and didn't think of the implications down the road.
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Many, perhaps most, of them do. I'd have to take a look at the script to check, but the three guys that greet and berate Barret when you first arrive in Corel definitely talk like him.
Perfect^ Thanks Avec 
I would also point out that all those characters are white.
I would also point out that all those characters are white.
- AKA
- TresDias
Angels jizz themselves when you hit "submit."
After looking into it, I see that what became "foo" in the official English translation was originally "omee" -- a coarse, rude word for "you." I don't know whether the Japanese dub of "The A-Team" used this in place of "foo," but being that it was Sony of Japan (i.e. Japanese people) who translated the game into English, one can only conclude that the connection to Mr. T was drawn well before the game hit English shores.
It would certainly be fair to say that Advent Children just played him for comedy. He's presented as both bungling and generally silly there.
----
Speaking of Mr. T, probably of more concern than anything else discussed thus far is that the Japanese dub of "The A-Team" had B.A. Baracus renamed "Kong."
Yeah. Let that settle in for a moment.
Granted, "Howling Mad" Murdock became "Crazymonkey" for some reason, but still. Not cool.
Of course, the most important issue at hand here is who this "racist" is and why we care if Barret is fucking them.
All this fierce love for Barret makes me very happy.
jazzflower92
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- The Girl With A Strong Opinion
It almost wants me to have him be the main character.
I mean come on it would be fun if there was an RPG character based on Barret.Although I have a feeling it would have to be a Western RPG in order for it to happen.
I mean come on it would be fun if there was an RPG character based on Barret.Although I have a feeling it would have to be a Western RPG in order for it to happen.
- AKA
- The Engineer
^^And even then we'd have some people saying he would either be "white-washed" or that he's a racial stereotype. There really isn't anyway to win that with some people.
Drax
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Benoist; Captain Highwind
It almost wants me to have him be the main character.
I mean come on it would be fun if there was an RPG character based on Barret.Although I have a feeling it would have to be a Western RPG in order for it to happen.
I'm going through Binary Domain right now and Bo comes pretty close. You even infiltrate a base at the beginning of the game with him. Also, it's very RPG stats and party changing in between levels.
Actually, I'm seeing a lot of VII influence in this game. They even have materia-like sphere slots for stat builds. Hmmm......
- AKA
- Mog
ACTUAL POST FROM A BLACK PERSON INCOMING.
Barret talks 'black'. There. I said it. Yes, there are white people who talk that way, yes (not many though. For real? I haven't met too many), it's 'urban', but his speech patterns; 'Awright', 'ain't, 'ey!' 'yo!' that is part of a dialect that is almost universally attributed to black people. Here's another newsflash; there's nothing racist about it. Races, and more particularly, cultures, have cultural dialects attached to them. White people from Texas are likely to talk a certain way, Hispanic people from California are likely to carry a certain dialect with them, and so and so forth.
Same with African Americans, yes, certain speech patterns (limited but not including, ebonics) are a trait that many African Americans are familiar with whether they personally themselves talk that way or not. It's not even really 'urban' (what the fuck?) because not only do white people from the city don't really talk like Barret at all, but black people from the Deep South are just as likely to use ebonics and say 'Awright' and 'Ain't.' While yes, I can totally see Barret played up some racial characteristics (or rather, attributes that are usually aligned with African Americans), that in itself isn't racist. That's how a good number of African Americans speak and act.
That's not racist, that's just culture, dude. Why is culture a bad thing that it's politically incorrect to write people as belonging to? Because 'ain't' isn't the epitome of a distinguished vocabulary? Fuck that. It's racist when you lock people into a frame based on preconceived notions, or you look down on them for it. Not just saying 'Hey, lets write this guy based on the culture that many of those guys share.'
Come on. I know more black people who act like Barret than those that don't. Many of which who are not less intelligent, have depth, or worth less than anyone else.
Barret talks 'black'. There. I said it. Yes, there are white people who talk that way, yes (not many though. For real? I haven't met too many), it's 'urban', but his speech patterns; 'Awright', 'ain't, 'ey!' 'yo!' that is part of a dialect that is almost universally attributed to black people. Here's another newsflash; there's nothing racist about it. Races, and more particularly, cultures, have cultural dialects attached to them. White people from Texas are likely to talk a certain way, Hispanic people from California are likely to carry a certain dialect with them, and so and so forth.
Same with African Americans, yes, certain speech patterns (limited but not including, ebonics) are a trait that many African Americans are familiar with whether they personally themselves talk that way or not. It's not even really 'urban' (what the fuck?) because not only do white people from the city don't really talk like Barret at all, but black people from the Deep South are just as likely to use ebonics and say 'Awright' and 'Ain't.' While yes, I can totally see Barret played up some racial characteristics (or rather, attributes that are usually aligned with African Americans), that in itself isn't racist. That's how a good number of African Americans speak and act.
That's not racist, that's just culture, dude. Why is culture a bad thing that it's politically incorrect to write people as belonging to? Because 'ain't' isn't the epitome of a distinguished vocabulary? Fuck that. It's racist when you lock people into a frame based on preconceived notions, or you look down on them for it. Not just saying 'Hey, lets write this guy based on the culture that many of those guys share.'
Come on. I know more black people who act like Barret than those that don't. Many of which who are not less intelligent, have depth, or worth less than anyone else.
- AKA
- Rishi
Barret is white-washed in AC
Yeah I was about to say... Barret definitely speaks in ebonics/something similar. It's pretty obvious that's where the character comes from. Whether or not it's appropriative/racist or not really something that's in my place to decide. I can see why people would say so. He definitely draws upon what they would call the "predominant narrative" in the social justice realm. That can be really problematic when you're dealing with things like racial stereotypes/poverty/things that generally apply to one's real life identity and how they are read in irl social space.
Also it's worthwhile noting that even really great things can be really socially problematic. Especially when you consider that FF7 is nearing on 20 years old. Social perceptions have quite a bit of room to change in that time, and no doubt they have. What may have not been considered problematic in the 90s could very well be no good as we continue to unpack these things and different narratives get more consideration.
Yeah I was about to say... Barret definitely speaks in ebonics/something similar. It's pretty obvious that's where the character comes from. Whether or not it's appropriative/racist or not really something that's in my place to decide. I can see why people would say so. He definitely draws upon what they would call the "predominant narrative" in the social justice realm. That can be really problematic when you're dealing with things like racial stereotypes/poverty/things that generally apply to one's real life identity and how they are read in irl social space.
Also it's worthwhile noting that even really great things can be really socially problematic. Especially when you consider that FF7 is nearing on 20 years old. Social perceptions have quite a bit of room to change in that time, and no doubt they have. What may have not been considered problematic in the 90s could very well be no good as we continue to unpack these things and different narratives get more consideration.
jazzflower92
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I always think that Barret could have been a fan of Spike Lee and Public Enemy if he lived in the real world.I mean Barret if you think about it is kinda a product of the image of the black activist fighting the man that was kinda of common in the 90's.Or even going farther back to the 70's with the stars of those blackexplotation movies like Shaft.Man,now I can just imagine Barret starring in one of those movies.
- AKA
- So many names
I got nothin' really to add, just needed to say: Force, Mog, Avec, Splintered? You are all awesome and I love you for this thread and what you've posted therein. Also...
^This
^This
So how exactly SHOULD Barret talk so as not to be racist/insensitive/whatever? Is the idea that he's not allowed to act like any actual black men?
Obviously not, in fact that would likely also be accused of being racist because he's just a white character with a black model. This is where this stuff starts to exasperate me, people who are so obsessed with being sensitive have no idea what they want. If Barret exhibits any characteristics previously exhibited by actual people, he's a stereotype, if not he's white washed. And then they want to know why there aren't more minorities in games?
Yes, the first reason is likely the fear of ruffling any feathers of their precious target demographic. But I'd imagine this is a second, you can't make such a character without fielding accusations no matter what you do with him or her.
It's very simple in my mind. If there was nothing to Barret's character and he was just a big scary dude spouting foul language, yes, he'd be a stereotype. But there IS more to his character, much much more. So he ISN'T. Case closed.
Obviously not, in fact that would likely also be accused of being racist because he's just a white character with a black model. This is where this stuff starts to exasperate me, people who are so obsessed with being sensitive have no idea what they want. If Barret exhibits any characteristics previously exhibited by actual people, he's a stereotype, if not he's white washed. And then they want to know why there aren't more minorities in games?
Yes, the first reason is likely the fear of ruffling any feathers of their precious target demographic. But I'd imagine this is a second, you can't make such a character without fielding accusations no matter what you do with him or her.
It's very simple in my mind. If there was nothing to Barret's character and he was just a big scary dude spouting foul language, yes, he'd be a stereotype. But there IS more to his character, much much more. So he ISN'T. Case closed.
- AKA
- The Engineer
^^Yeah, the way some minorities react to this makes it be that there's no way a character designer can win. It means that characters designers won't design characters who happen to be minorities because the trouble people give them over how they design those characters isn't worth it.
Vendel
Banned
- AKA
- Rishi
eh. personally i think just because something is good or well-rounded or enjoyable doesn't eradicate all the problematic things associated with it due to its merit. but that's just imo!
i can't say how barret "should" act because i'm not a black person and being black has nothing to do with my own experience or identity. what i can say is that the "angry black man" stereotype is something that is so overplayed that it can be considered harmful. whether or not he is a good character doesn't mitigate the fact that he definitely plays into that trope. predominant narratives and all that jazz.
it's not like ff7 is "the wire" even though similar themes are present. personally. it's not like you're getting the most sophisticated portrayal of an urban ghetto. so problematics/important omissions/harmful stereotypes are bound to arise.
- AKA
- So many names
I don't see Barrett as a stereotypical Angry Black Man, I see him as an man who is justifiably angry for a laundry list of reasons. The fact that he is a black man who is angry does not automatically toss him into the Angry Black Man category for me.
- AKA
- TresDias
Most people are justifiably angry when you find out the reasons. I take it, though, that when you use the term "Angry Black Man" you do so with the understanding that it is a pejorative referring to an angry and/or excitable Black man in fiction whose motivations are not thoroughly explored?
Terms related to stereotyping are so often used only in a negative sense that I can't tell when someone sees one as a term that only applies in the event of negativity or if they're treating the words as precisely what they describe (e.g. a Black man who is angry). And that's an important distinction, since Barret is an Angry Black Man and isn't an Angry Black Man -- depending on how you're applying it.
I will say this, though: Given the prevalence of this as a character type, it means Barret was always going to be shuffled into the category, at least initially, regardless of how one uses the term.
I think that's one reason why I don't like when words so often used in negative contexts begin to take on a colloquial meaning in which they are only accurately used if in a negative context. "Criticism" being the example that annoys me most.
But I bring this up because it presents a scenario where the character has to earn their way out of a negative cage right from the starting gun. Barret has to earn not being an Angry Black Man; Tifa has to earn not being an Airhead with Big Boobs; Aerith has to earn not being a Mary Sue; etc. I see all this as being particularly problematic when people are conditioned to this because it's not a stretch to imagine them applying this way of thinking to people in real life.
I really think that, to some degree, the developers were conscious of all these tropes and deliberately set out to deconstruct every one of them. Hell, look at what they did with Cloud and his Badass with a Big Sword persona.
I take it, though, that when you use the term "Angry Black Man" you do so with the understanding that it is a pejorative referring to an angry and/or excitable Black man in fiction whose motivations are not thoroughly explored?Terms related to stereotyping are so often used only in a negative sense that I can't tell when someone sees one as a term that only applies in the event of negativity or if they're treating the words as precisely what they describe (e.g. a Black man who is angry). And that's an important distinction, since Barret is an Angry Black Man and isn't an Angry Black Man -- depending on how you're applying it.
I will say this, though: Given the prevalence of this as a character type, it means Barret was always going to be shuffled into the category, at least initially, regardless of how one uses the term.
I think that's one reason why I don't like when words so often used in negative contexts begin to take on a colloquial meaning in which they are only accurately used if in a negative context. "Criticism" being the example that annoys me most.
But I bring this up because it presents a scenario where the character has to earn their way out of a negative cage right from the starting gun. Barret has to earn not being an Angry Black Man; Tifa has to earn not being an Airhead with Big Boobs; Aerith has to earn not being a Mary Sue; etc. I see all this as being particularly problematic when people are conditioned to this because it's not a stretch to imagine them applying this way of thinking to people in real life.
I really think that, to some degree, the developers were conscious of all these tropes and deliberately set out to deconstruct every one of them. Hell, look at what they did with Cloud and his Badass with a Big Sword persona.
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And in that sense, freakin huge kudos, Nojima.
But I still don't like this idea that, in order to avoidd being 'racist' you have to cut off entire avenues of creativity. If you want to have a black character, you can't make him angry, or any number of things that might be considered stereotyping, regardless of how developed said chaarcter is. Better still, if you're not black, you just can't write black characters because you can't understand.
If you want to make a female character, you can't have her EVER need help from a male lead, or she's instantly a helpless woman.
So on and so forth.
I think that line of thinking would lead to some serious hampering of some of the better works of art throughout the years. As you just pointed out, Tres, FF7 wouldn't have as NEARLY an interesting cast as it does.
But I still don't like this idea that, in order to avoidd being 'racist' you have to cut off entire avenues of creativity. If you want to have a black character, you can't make him angry, or any number of things that might be considered stereotyping, regardless of how developed said chaarcter is. Better still, if you're not black, you just can't write black characters because you can't understand.
If you want to make a female character, you can't have her EVER need help from a male lead, or she's instantly a helpless woman.
So on and so forth.
I think that line of thinking would lead to some serious hampering of some of the better works of art throughout the years. As you just pointed out, Tres, FF7 wouldn't have as NEARLY an interesting cast as it does.
JayM
Angry Lesbian
I don't think it's so much that you CAN'T do those things; it's just that, if you're going to do them, you should be aware of the implications they carry. Know what you're doing with your creative endeavor and own it. That's kinda your responsibility with any choice you make, as a creator - even when there's no "right" way to do something, you try to do it as well as you can.Force said:
And understand that once the work leaves your hands, there are people who aren't going to like it, who might even be offended by it. If artists are "hampered" by that possibility, they shouldn't put their work in the public eye in the first place. The audience does not owe the artist an accolade.