Barret Wallace

[Tennyo]

Well freaking duh.



It depends who is in what slot in your party, I'm pretty sure. But you're clearly gonna look for bullshit reasons to get offended anyway, so I'm sure it doesn't matter.

This, I think. I'll have to replay it myself. But when playing through that scene with Barret try changing where he is in the line up and see.

 

[Max Payne]

Barret is not a stereotype. Stereotyped characters are shallow and undeveloped. If you think about it, you can fit all the main characters into a certain category (for instance, Cloud is the moody anti-hero), but the moment you bring nuance to their personalities is when they stop being canned characters. Barret has real hopes and dreams and pains that make him a credible human being and not just a token angry black guy.

His final conversation with Dyne is one of the most moving scenes in the whole game. A stereotype could never do that.

Can't be said enough.

OP is so focused on Barret's fucking skin color he/she/it can't see past it.

Barret deemed himself to be an unfit leader because all of his fucking friends died horribly on his watch and almost all of his plans lead to a less than preferable conclusion.

That's why he didn't protest Cloud being the leader anymore after the vote. He WANTS to be a leader, but he knows he's not that good at it.

 

[clowd]

It depends who is in what slot in your party, I'm pretty sure. But you're clearly gonna look for bullshit reasons to get offended anyway, so I'm sure it doesn't matter.

I've just finished testing it with a few characters and if Barret is in the party he's always the last one to jump on. Character slot does not matter, I've switched it up.

I've decided to run another test.

When the crew arrives at Rocket Town for the first time they see the Tiny Bronco behind Cid's house.

What are the reactions of each character?

Will it fly? Is it all right to just take it? -Red XIII

Red XIII shows his moral fortitude

Let's take it. OK, Cloud! - Aeris

Aeris shows some spunk here, but it's softened by not using the word "steal".

Cloud! If we steal it, we will get in deep trouble! -Cait Sith

Cait Sith takes the moral high ground

Tifa does not have a message for this scene.

Cloud, let's steal it! I love stealing from the Shinra! - Yuffie

Yuffie, a career thief. Unsurprising.

And the man who cares about the planet more then anybody, who hates the wicked ways of the Shinra more then anybody, Barret?

The Shinra always keep the most useful things to themselves. Lets steal it! - Barret

So hes reduced to nothing but a common thief. In this scene he's no better then the thief Yuffie, who will even steal from her own party members. Way to degrade a character by making him a stereotypical "lets steal that!" black man. Heck, I even had Yuffie with Barret to see who the game chose to speak for the scene. It chose Barret.

Go ahead and say I'm looking to be offended. If it werent for watchdogs and whistle blowers like me people would get away with far more then they do now.

And people are capable of stereotyping minorities or being racist subconsciously. I can't claim Square went out of their way to make Barret look this way or that way. But it is entirely possible thay let subconscious stereotypes affect the way they designed and wrote the character.

Barret deemed himself to be an unfit leader because all of his fucking friends died horribly on his watch and almost all of his plans lead to a less than preferable conclusion.

And who was chosen to replace Barret as leader? Cloud who helped destroy a reactor simply for cash? Cloud who just sat there and watched Aeris die, and almost killed her himself with a buster sword inches from her head? Cloud who had several epic meltdowns, including slapping Aeris in the temple of the Ancients, giving the black materia to Sephiroth TWO times, how does that make him such a better leader then Barret?

Sure Barret agreed to build a Mako reactor in Corel, but he had the best intentions in mind for the community as a whole. He had no idea the Shinra would slaughter and burn an entire town because they blamed a reactor explosion on a rebel faction in Corel. Just like he had no idea they would destroy an entire sector just to get Avalanche.

Late in the game Tifa and Cid are both chosen as leaders over Barret. Its like the game constantly finds Barret incompetent. Sort of like how so many people are saying " I TOLD YOU SO" with Obama. They WANT a black man to fail as president. They were waiting for it and are celebrating any of his failures so they can assume the old white guy would have done better. If McCain had become president, would democrats be saying "I TOLD YOU SO" to describe any problems they have with him? They're saying "well, you wanted the black guy, and we told you this would happen if you chose him, so there you go"

We live in a world where alot of people are blatantly racist or subconsciously racist. Whether you choose to accept that reality or ignore it is up to you.

 

[Tetsujin]

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Seriously?! Is this a joke? Are we reacting in exactly the way as planned and this whole thread was just intended to entertain and amuse? Please tell me that's what's going on here.

 

[Splintered]

o hes reduced to nothing but a common thief. In this scene he's no better then the thief Yuffie, who will even steal

You kidding me? You're blaming him for wanting to steal something from Shinra?

The company that killed his wife, that exploited his town then raized it to the ground? Then destroyed his town again? The company that so thoroughly broke down his best friend to the point he became a suicidal mass murderer? The company that makes millions while the people that he lives with live in poverty, pollution, and misery?

He's not stealing it because lol black people steal. He's giving the finger to the company that ruined his life while they get eat from golden plates.

 

[Tennyo]

I've just finished testing it with a few characters and if Barret is in the party he's always the last one to jump on. Character slot does not matter, I've switched it up.

I've decided to run another test.

When the crew arrives at Rocket Town for the first time they see the Tiny Bronco behind Cid's house.

What are the reactions of each character?

Will it fly? Is it all right to just take it? -Red XIII

Red XIII shows his moral fortitude

Let's take it. OK, Cloud! - Aeris

Aeris shows some spunk here, but it's softened by not using the word "steal".

Cloud! If we steal it, we will get in deep trouble! -Cait Sith

Cait Sith takes the moral high ground

Tifa does not have a message for this scene.

Cloud, let's steal it! I love stealing from the Shinra! - Yuffie

Yuffie, a career thief. Unsurprising.

And the man who cares about the planet more then anybody, who hates the wicked ways of the Shinra more then anybody, Barret?

The Shinra always keep the most useful things to themselves. Lets steal it! - Barret

So hes reduced to nothing but a common thief. In this scene he's no better then the thief Yuffie, who will even steal from her own party members. Way to degrade a character by making him a stereotypical "lets steal that!" black man. Heck, I even had Yuffie with Barret to see who the game chose to speak for the scene. It chose Barret.

Go ahead and say I'm looking to be offended. If it werent for watchdogs and whistle blowers like me people would get away with far more then they do now.

And people are capable of stereotyping minorities or being racist subconsciously. I can't claim Square went out of their way to make Barret look this way or that way. But it is entirely possible thay let subconscious stereotypes affect the way they designed and wrote the character.

So other non-black characters in the main cast are all for stealing the plane as well, but since Barret also does it is racial profiling or something like that?

 

[clowd]

You kidding me? You're blaming him for wanting to steal something from Shinra?

The company that killed his wife, that exploited his town then raized it to the ground? Then destroyed his town again? The company that so thoroughly broke down his best friend to the point he became a suicidal mass murderer? The company that makes millions while the people that he lives with live in poverty, pollution, and misery?

He's not stealing it because lol black people steal. He's giving the finger to the company that ruined his life while they get eat from golden plates.

I see your point, but I think it could go either way. Maybe its a little bit of both. Who knows. I'm an empath so I'm very alert and sensitive to things like that. Is a great asset but at the same time can be burdensome as I get upset very easily when I see perceived injustices that most people would not even notice or just overlook.

So other non-black characters in the main cast are all for stealing the plane as well, but since Barret also does it is racial profiling or something like that?

The dialogue is different. Both Yuffie and Barret show the least worry and most enthusiasm in taking it. If I were to post the dialogue sequence for each character without naming who said what, would it be easy to choose which dialogue belonged to Yuffie and Barret? Unfortunately, yes. But as Splintered brought out its very possible Barret acted that way because he wanted revenge on Shinra. But IMO its very possible he acted that way to fill yet another stereotype.

 

[Kobato]

Err, in Final Fantasy VIII Zell wanted to be a leader during the parade assassination, and be the leader of the gate team that would jam the gates down on Soc. Edea.

Squall says no, and he gives the job of leader to Quistis. Zell is white skinned.

Also Quistis was told by the Balamb community, that she was a unreliable leader and that she shouldn't be a teacher, Quisty too, is white.

Also General Leo, is a dark skinned character, and he's one of the best FF characters created. Leo is kind, pure, a good leader, cares about other people and families, and he is a powerful fighter, and he is extremely loyal to the Emperor that he serves.

 

[Scias]

Are you serious my man?

Sazh may have a Chocobo on his afro, yeah, but he's easily one of the most realistic AND beloved FF chars ever created. Did you play FFXIII at all or you're just judging him by his appearance and a pair of trailers on youtube? I mean, come on... This is like saying "OMG Reddas wear pink pants that's SOOOOO degrading!!!!"

Barret is, too, a pretty realistic character. Yes, he kinda resembles Mr. T, but if you pay attention to his dialogues and background you'll see that he's a far more complex character than your typical stereotypical joke character. You should read his Case from On the Way to a Smile.

Look, I'm a black guy, I understand your concerns but over-sensitiveness is definitely NOT the way to solve social problems and stigmatization in media.

 

[Dashell]

Sazh may have a Chocobo on his afro, yeah, but he's easily one of the most realistic AND beloved FF chars ever created.

But he's BLACK, dude! Don't you get that? Black dudes with birds in their hair are sterotypica...

wait what?

 

[ForceStealer]

If McCain had become president, would democrats be saying "I TOLD YOU SO" to describe any problems they have with him?

Um...yes? But what the shit do current American politics have anythign to do with a Japanese game made in 1997?

Barret deemed himself to be an unfit leader because all of his fucking friends died horribly on his watch and almost all of his plans lead to a less than preferable conclusion.

That's why he didn't protest Cloud being the leader anymore after the vote. He WANTS to be a leader, but he knows he's not that good at it.

QFFT.

OP is so focused on Barret's fucking skin color he/she/it can't see past it.

IIIIRONYYYY

But IMO its very possible he acted that way to fill yet another stereotype.

lol. So, in writing Barret's dialogue, Nojima had a little stereotype checklist next to him that he had to "fill" each of them by the end of the script.

I love that Aerith's suggestion to steal it is okay because she says "take" instead of steal
Are you serious? You seem to be the only one with subconscious racism goin on here dude.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'm almost ashamed that the OP managed to generate three pages of discussion. Even if it is three pages of derision and disbelief, it stuns me sometimes how much we can talk about the most foolish ideas. I should know better by now.

 

[Tennyo]

The dialogue is different. Both Yuffie and Barret show the least worry and most enthusiasm in taking it. If I were to post the dialogue sequence for each character without naming who said what, would it be easy to choose which dialogue belonged to Yuffie and Barret? Unfortunately, yes. But as Splintered brought out its very possible Barret acted that way because he wanted revenge on Shinra. But IMO its very possible he acted that way to fill yet another stereotype.

Splintered is right. I would have picked it out as his because 1.) I know he hates Shinra. 2.) The way he says it is unique to him as an individual person. This has nothing to do with his skin color.

You're telling me he basically has to be a gary-stu who does nothing wrong and is practically perfect in every way in order to NOT be a stereotype. Like he's not allowed to have flaws just because he's black.

There is so much more to Barrat's character and you're only scratching the surface of it.

 

[Masamune]

Splintered is right. I would have picked it out as his because 1.) I know he hates Shinra. 2.) The way he says it is unique to him as an individual person. This has nothing to do with his skin color.

You're telling me he basically has to be a gary-stu who does nothing wrong and is practically perfect in every way in order to NOT be a stereotype. Like he's not allowed to have flaws just because he's black.

There is so much more to Barrat's character and you're only scratching the surface of it.

But I don't think the OP has denied that there's more behind the hood of Barret's character than what you get at face value. That doesn't mutually exclude the stereotypical elements attributed to Barret's character i.e. big, angry black dude who shoots first, ask questions later and swears like a trooper in every other line. Did Barret necessarily need those attributes to complement his character or were they thrown in, because like I said, Japan has a hilarious take on black people?

However, I do believe the Tiny Bronco angle isn't helping any with the argument.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

.....And I keep wondering why this thread hasn't been closed yet.

 

[looneymoon]

I think Barret exhibits some stereotypes but it's not at all detrimental to his characterization. I think it's fine for a character to exhibit stereotypes so long as they are well-developed and fleshed out. So long as the character is human and tangible to the audience, the stereotypes don't really matter as much. Imo at least.

Heck, all the characters are stereotypes in one way or another. I've complained about how the writers have treated Tifa a bunch of times on this forum, but that doesn't mean I don't think she's a bad/offensive character. It doesn't make me love her any less.

I mean... I think it's ood to be critical but... really? That's the example you chose? It's a little stretching.

 

[ForceStealer]

HE SPEAKS WITH AN URBAN-SOUNDING DIALECT. NO ACTUAL BLACK PEOPLE TALK LIKE THAT. THEY MUST BE RACISTS.

Masa, you're giving his/her argument WAY too much credit. he doesn't say Barret's character might "include some stereotypical elements," he said Barret is DEGRADING to black people. And he is so because he does/says the exact same thing other white (Asian in Yuffie's case?) characters do but it's only stereotypical when he says/does them. (Am I the only one that thinks that rationale sounds MORE racial?)

More than that. He's not saying they wouldn't consider letting a black man be a leader. He's saying the developers maliciously established Barret as a leader and took it away from him to further their racist agenda. Barret acts as real a human as any other Final Fantasy character, and I challenge you to create a charcter that doesn't have something that someone might consider a stereotype. And Cid swears a HELL of a lot more than Barret ever did. But, that doesn't matter cause he's white. But since Barret's black, you can't actually make him swear because then he's a stereotype. I'm sorry that's bullshit.

And about Sazh? He's not big, angry, he asks plenty of questions before he shoots, and doesn't swear. So...all you've got is the afro. Sazh may well be the most real character with the most real problems in the series.

I agree that there are a boatload of examples of the Japanese very stereotypical portayal of blacks in their media. But Barret is unequivocally not one of those. If anything, Barret bucked a lot of trends of blacks in Japanese media. And clowd here is fishin' SO HARD in all the worst freakin places to try and prove that we should shake our heads at the way Barret was written. Well how can you blame developers for not putting a lot of minorities in their games if no matter what they do the character's portrayal is going to be racist?

 

[clowd]

I cant say it better then this.

Please watch the first 35 seconds of this video clip.

edit: ill just leave it at that. I admit I brought this up the wrong way

 

[looneymoon]

If any character is the butt of all jokes in the game, it's probably Cloud.

I'm not going to disagree that Barret and Sahz display stereotypical characteristics. Does this necessarily make them degrading characters? No. You know why? Because they are more than their stereotypes. They are carefully constructed characters who are as developed and relatable as anyone else in the main cast. More so actually. As soon as they become sympathetic, the "stereotypical" aspects are not harmful.

I would say you have a fair point with Sahz's afro. It was a stylistic choice based solely on the fact that he is black. It was unnecessary, but I wouldn't say it's harmful or degrading. As for the traits you speak of Barret - they are fundamental to his character. He does not sound like he is "illiterate." That's a ridiculous claim and doesn't do well to support your point. His bullheadedness is just important to who he IS. You just cannot have the character of "Barret" without those traits, black or not.

Also you act as though Square Enix systematically stereotypes black people in their games. What about Kiros? There is nothing stereotypical about him. He just happens to be black.

Let's take another example: Tifa and Aeris. Both characters display attributes that play into female stereotypes. I could do the same thing you're doing and make the case that both Tifa and Aeris are degrading to women because... well, because Aeris is a physically weak magic princess-type who can't defend herself? Or Tifa is harmful to the feminist principles because she has big tits?

No, I can't and I won't. I can't because they are three-dimensional, fully fleshed out characters who are much more than a few choice stereotypes they exhibit. They are multi-faceted and as soon as a character is multi-faceted, the so-called stereotypes become another layer of complexity to their depth of being.

When put in a real life situation, it's rather insulting if someone passes judgement on your personality based on a few choice stereotypes you exhibit (with how complex human personalities are, everyone is bound to adhere to several stereotypes that relate directly to something superficial about them). It's a disservice to people. As such, it's a disservice to well-written, widely loved characters.

 

[Masamune]

HE SPEAKS WITH AN URBAN-SOUNDING DIALECT. NO ACTUAL BLACK PEOPLE TALK LIKE THAT. THEY MUST BE RACISTS.

Masa, you're giving his/her argument WAY too much credit. he doesn't say Barret's character might "include some stereotypical elements," he said Barret is DEGRADING to black people. And he is so because he does/says the exact same thing other white (Asian in Yuffie's case?) characters do but it's only stereotypical when he says/does them. (Am I the only one that thinks that rationale sounds MORE racial?)

More than that. He's not saying they wouldn't consider letting a black man be a leader. He's saying the developers maliciously established Barret as a leader and took it away from him to further their racist agenda. Barret acts as real a human as any other Final Fantasy character, and I challenge you to create a charcter that doesn't have something that someone might consider a stereotype. And Cid swears a HELL of a lot more than Barret ever did. But, that doesn't matter cause he's white. But since Barret's black, you can't actually make him swear because then he's a stereotype. I'm sorry that's bullshit.

And about Sazh? He's not big, angry, he asks plenty of questions before he shoots, and doesn't swear. So...all you've got is the afro. Sazh may well be the most real character with the most real problems in the series.

I agree that there are a boatload of examples of the Japanese very stereotypical portayal of blacks in their media. But Barret is unequivocally not one of those. If anything, Barret bucked a lot of trends of blacks in Japanese media. And clowd here is fishin' SO HARD in all the worst freakin places to try and prove that we should shake our heads at the way Barret was written. Well how can you blame developers for not putting a lot of minorities in their games if no matter what they do the character's portrayal is going to be racist?

Well said, Force.

I draw the line at the Tiny Bronco scene. That's taking shit waaaaay too far. Nonetheless, Barret does embody the black stereotype, even if at the heart of it all he's a complex character. While you could use that premise to argue that the rest of the party are stereotypes (something I'm not sure I agree with), Barret's is the glaring racial stereotype of the bunch. I should probably add that this doesn't offend me as it clearly does the OP.

Also, let's look at Barret's wardrobe change in the Compilation. It looks like something Nomura designed with a black dude in mind instead of Barret himself. There's no wai a guy like Barret would willingly wear that metero outfit and style his hair into cornrows. But cornrows = black hairdo, the same way Sazh has a giant 'fro. I would say there's a still a definite lack of black culture internationally, especially in countries like Japan.

Of course, some of their designers know what they're doing!

 

[Ite]

Clowd just backed up his argument with a clip of The View. I... guess we're gonna let that one slide, then?

 

[looneymoon]

^I was going to point that out but... decided not to

To be honest, I think the compilation stereotypes the characters far more than the OG ever did.

cough let's make Tifa a stay at home mom cough

 

[Ryushikaze]

^I was going to point that out but... decided not to

To be honest, I think the compilation stereotypes the characters far more than the OG ever did.

cough let's make Tifa a stay at home mom cough

You're not exactly a 'stay at home mom' if 'home' is a restaurant you run.

 

[Zee]

cough let's make Tifa a stay at home mom cough

Let's talk about Tifa, Aeris, and the shitty way the compliation treats the female characters in general.

WE'LL BE HERE A WHILE.........