Before Crisis is canon but shoddy.

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
I hate the black suits.

I love the black suits. Stereo typical, but for a reason. Black suits are serious, somewhat frightening.

I also really love monocrome, so it could be personal preference. I tend to say 'dark' suits when I write to avoid commenting on the color, cosplay wise I go for black because it's simpler.

PS Rufus knew that the other Turks were alive. He was the one who signed their fake death certificates. Tseng got Elena promoted because he fancied her. Like that's never happened before

I'd like to add that as Rufus was involved in the conspiracy to fake the Turks deaths, he couldn't very well bring them back without question. Reeve would have supported him, but the rest of the Board might have well had grounds to stage a coup if it would mean more power.

No one can know the other Turks survived.

President Shinra Sr. wasn't going to fund the Turks to hire new recruits. He thought the old group was a threat and wouldn't want then to grow into a large and possibly dangerous faction. Especially if they're loyal to Rufus, because the President knows Rufus might himself pose a threat.

Rufus convinced the President to let the Turks live and everything he did was part of a calculated plan, which most likely included only keeping the senior members around and faking the other's death. It's an easier sell to get the President to spare 3 Turks than a dozen.

The department was saved by Rufus, but it was gutted. Its funding was slashed, its numbers were reduced, and it was absorbed into Heidegger's department.

What I got from this
Scarlet
"With Hojo gone, the Weapon Development's been getting a bigger
budget."

Tseng
"I envy them."

Scarlet
"But, even if we make the perfect weapon, could that stupid
Heidegger ever use it?"

Tseng
"....."

Scarlet
"Oh... sorry! I forgot Heidegger was your boss! Ha ha ha!"

Tseng
"....."

Scarlet
"Let's go!"

is that Scarlet is a not very nice lady and Tseng is sarcastic. Also the Turks don't have a lot of funding and Tseng doesn't seem particularly enthused about Heidegger. None of this is contradicted by BC.

In any case, the Turks are a shadow of their former self and why would the President allow them to recruit more people?

Elena is actually the perfect recruit because she came to them, she's trained (The girl got top marks at a highly competitive military academy), and she has family ties to the Turks. Tseng knows Gun did well, and Elena's transcripts recommend her. They might not have the budget or permission to hire her right away, but they can keep her close. She requires minimal investment.

When Reno is briefly put out of commission they promote her because she's promoted to the Turks. By that point Rufus is President and he'd probably be willing to sign an executive order giving Tseng whatever he wanted because the Turks are his.

Of course, Rufus can't rebuild the department just yet. There are more pressing matters to attend to, like the end of the world. He can't risk a coup by brining the old Turks back and right now they don't have a lot of time to train a ton of new recruits. There's work to be done, Sephiroth must be found, threats to planet must be answered.

The plot of BC makes sense with the original game. Elena makes sense as a likely hire because she's right there and pre-trained. The Turks aren't exactly in a position to be scouting talent, after all.

Now I'm going to make the unpopular statement that I like the BC retcons for the most part.

Or rather, they're retcons of a sort I don't mind, retcons that could exist, that don't over right so much as fill in possible gaps by providing "how and why" to previously unanswered questions.

We know Nanaki is not in fact the last of his kind because he reproduces. This raises the question of "how?" BC fills in a gap by giving us a female. It's no more illogical than to suppose that in all his years Nanaki had never seen a female of his kind but then finds one post game. Where did she come from and why didn't he know about her? Either way, there's gaps in logic.

With Rocket Town, I liked the idea that it was sabotage rather than mistake that led to fault with the rocket. We know something went wrong, BC adds a 'how and why did it go so wrong' but that doesn't fundamentally alter the story. In fact, I like having Shera seem even less culpable. It's no longer a matter of waiting until the last minute to check something that should have been checked thoroughly way before the launch time, it's checking for sabotage that occurred right before the launch leaving no time to check way before hand without delaying the launch.

Even with Corel, the gist I got from the original game is Shinra suspects the people of Corel are responsible for the reactor blowing up so Scarlet destroys the city. What I got from BC is the reactor blows up due to terrorist action and Shinra still holds Corel responsible and destroys the city. If anything it makes Shinra worse because they knew the parties to blame did not originate in Corel.

Either way, Shinra wrongly destroyed Corel and Barret has every reason to hate them. Barret's story isn't dependent on whether the reactor blew up because due to terrorist action or bizzarre accident, it's dependent on Shinra wrongly blaming and punishing Corel. In either case, it happens, and again I see BC as merely filling in a "how and why" of an unexplained event. In this case, "how did the reactor blow up?"
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
the game was good-storyline wise. save for the sephiroth incident, it was pretty ok. the incident was so bad and the fans raged so hard that S/E remade it, and the outcome was the best incident ever made (to me): in crisis core.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
My biggest problem with BC was the general portrayal of the Turks. I thought they were supposed to be elite spies, but it turns out that they're SOLDIER lite...and they're extremely bad at it.

Mission 1: Protect Reactor. Success. Elite operative Reno and player are completely at the mercy of AVALANCHE and survive by dumb luck. Also, caught completely by surprise by terrorist attack.

Mission 2: Protect President. Result: President Shot, left completely at the mercy of AVALANCHE leaders again.

Mission 3: Prevent cannon from being fired. Bailed out by Sephiroth.

Mission 4: Recruit for SOLDIER. Two elite operatives corner the most vulnerable of the AVALANCHE leadership. Both of them together fail to kill, capture, or deal him any lasting harm.

Mission 5: Protect data disc. AVALANCHE obtains data disc.

Mission 6: In which Reno is nosy.

Mission 7: Infiltrate AVALANCHE base undetected. Detected.

Mission 8: Escort column of soldiers. Separated from column, column slaughtered. Rescue missing SOLDIERs. SOLDIERs killed. Base evacuated before it can be destroyed.

Mission 9: Protect Junon. Tseng does first rate work here, diguisingf himself and discovering the enemy objective. The others wander aimlessly until the end, where for some reason killing a Raven in the airport saves the day. Success

Mission 10: Save Hojo. Bailed out by Sephiroth, once again nonchalantly handled by AVALANCHE leaders

Mission 11: Protect girl from avalanche. Girl brought to AVALANCHE. Player survives due to girl begging for life

Mission 12: Investigate Nibelheim reactor. Fail to do so. Stop Sephiroth. Fail to do so.

Mission 13: Spring clean Shinra manor. Success.

Mission 14: Destroy AVALANCHE base. Success. AVALANCHE predicted and were counting on this, howver.

Mission 15: Protect Tiny Bronco. Success. Prevent sabotage of launch. Fail.

Mission 16: Protect Corel reactor. Corel reactor destroyed. Protect Rufus. Success

Mission 17: Escape caves. Knocked out for 3 years.

Mission 18: Kidnap Red. Success

Mission 19: Apprehend Zack. Refuse. Fuhito gains materia, Turks all fugitives.

Missio 20: Find materia. pickpocketed by Raven.

Mission 21: Find materia

Mission 22: Rescue Veld/Elena. Success. Prevent Fuhito from gaing support materia. Fail

Mission 23:Stop Fuhito from summoning Zirconiade. Fuhito summons Zirconiade. Is killed by Shears.

Mission 24: Save the world. Success.

Pretty patchy record, no?
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
Mission 13: Spring clean Shinra manor. Success.

I'm like dying laughing. Dude, you're seriously hilarious, though you forgot successfully rescuing a little girl's cat from a tree.

However, one of the things I liked about BC is that you don't win the boss battles. Now, I haven't played many games, but in my experience generally, you as the player defeat every threat you come up against. You get into a boss battle, you win, and you move on to the next challenge because the princess if in another castle or you need to find take some next step in your journey, next goal, but all the while the formula is get to the boss fight, beat the boss, move on while becoming ever more powerful.

I like that in terms of story telling BC gives you antagonists who are a legitimate threat.You get to the boss fight, and they knock beat you at every turn. Yes, this does create some deus ex machina (Sephiroth) or dumb luck where it enemy lets you go instead of shooting you in the head (it's called "double tap" AVALANCHE). I think it could have been better handled, give us better reasons how the player manages to get by with their life in some instances, but I didn't mind that the Turks weren't super competent.

I liked that the threat posed by AVALANCHE was legitimately threatening. That the Turks are out classed and the plot can be summed up as "And this it got worse". I liked that in this game you actually have a game mechanic that encourages you to run for the sake of time rather than getting into fights. You aren't a power house that just mows through everything in your path, you are human and have weaknesses. That's interesting.

The game is less level grind and be powerful, and more play through a story that as a story is compelling on many levels.
 
Clement Rage wrote:

"Mission 24: Save the world. Success."

iIf at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

You're dead right (and very funny with it; really it's a wonder the Turks weren't disbanded for being useless) - but I have to agree with Cam: I think that's the exact reason they appeal to me. They're just ordinary people up against forces that far outweigh their own power, but they never give up. Cam beautifully summed up everything I like about it, so I won't say any more except to highlight her point about how the game mechanics encourage you to sneak around enemies for the sake of savng time, which I;d hadn't noticed till she pointed it out but which is actually pretty clever.
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
I love that mechanic. What bothers me in a lot of video games is that you're encouraged to do side things and level grind (which can be fun enough), but since I'm very task focused I tend to get annoyed. (me playing Crisis Core: I don't want to explore Sector 8 or volunteer for missions, I want to go to Banora with Tseng and get on with the story. This is also probably the reason I can't beat the first boss and I shall probably have to go back and do some missions to level up). I like that in BC, at least what I can gather from play throughs, you get a lot of timed missions where even if you're high level enough to beat your enemies (as the people doing the play throughs are) you're still encouraged to do the mission efficiently and quickly rather than looking for a fight. I think that's brilliant and in many ways adds a level of realism. There's actual urgency in the game.

I also like the game is more story based. We get things like Rude's romance with Chelsea which is very episodic and more like something from a TV show than a video game, and that's great. This isn't just another spy game where you do missions and beat every foe because you're James Bond or elite assassin person, it's a story that you get to play through. The story matters more than just being powerful and killing things, where as with a lot of games, even ones with fantastic story, a bit part of the game is going around killing things for hours so you can get better at killing things. Here you learn as you go, are encouraged to play smart (avoid your enemies, solve this maze), and your character is just a struggling human being rather than a super powerful hero.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Now, I haven't played many games, but in my experience generally, you as the player defeat every threat you come up against. You get into a boss battle, you win, and you move on to the next challenge because the princess if in another castle or you need to find take some next step in your journey, next goal, but all the while the formula is get to the boss fight, beat the boss, move on while becoming ever more powerful.

I can think of at least a dozen games that involve losing at least one boss fight without even pausing for thought, and I'm not particularly knowledgable about gaming. You lose five bossfights in FF9 alone. Similarly, if you want a game that avoids conflict and does it convincingly, play some Metal Gear.

Now, a lot of games have scenes where the protagonist is at the antagonists mercy but survives. It usually happens for one of these reasons.

1. Protagonist is insignificant as a threat

2. Protagonist required to further evil plans

3. Cruel mercy... a fate worse than death.

4.This is a kids show, we can't kill anyone.

5. An interruption of some kind.

None of these apply to most of the scenes in BC. While they can't harm Shears, the Turks continue to be spared even after they've thwarted several of AVALANCHE's plans and are fairly clearly the main obstacle to achieving their goals. AVALANCHE's plans don't require live Turks. Cruel mercy doesn't apply except in mission 2, when Fuhito elects not to kill the Prez(and still has no reason not to kill the Turks) it's not a game where people are allowed to die, and the only credible interruption is in mission 3. So most of these survivals involved...the script.

They're just ordinary people up against forces that far outweigh their own power, but they never give up.

But... that description encompasses the original game cast much better than the Turks. Barret is a pissed off coal miner who picked up a gun. Tifa is not special, neither is Cid, Red, Yuffie. The only special guy on the team is Cloud, and he's not that special. He's Mako enhanced, sure, but so is every other SOLDIER, and that doesn't make them world beaters. Cloud wins because of his drive, not because of his enhancements. and he beat Sephiroth the first time as a random kid in a tiny village with no enhancements at all. He's an ordinary kid, with a stubborn streak. Oh, and Vincent the optional side character. Aerith is special, but not in an especially combat capable way.

The Turks, on the other hand, are implied to have been trained their entire lives from birthto deal with people like AVALANCHE. Also, they give up a bunch of times in the OG when they decide 'Screw this, I'm outta here' fighting AVALANCHE.

And they NEVER admit their failures! AVALANCHE are subsequently bothered by their failures, the innocents that died because of them. Cloud is upset that his actions in bringing about Meteorfall and wants to redeem himself. He doesn't decide 'I'M THE KING OF THE WOOORRLD!' after Meteorfall, he sets up a delivery service and gets depressed. And he views himself as a failure because of the people he couldn't protect.

The Turks, however, consistently portray themselves as badasses no matter how badly they fuck up and who pays the price (They keep saying things like 'We're the Turks' in a way that implies 'we're professional badasses, buddy') They're bothered by Heidegger using them as mere diversions (the way they themselves used the Shinra soldiers in Mission 3 and 14).

I don't want to explore Sector 8 or volunteer for missions

So don't. My first playthrough of FF7, I escaped from a lot of battles, which caused some problems on certain bosses, but I was still able to finish the game.
 
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The Turks, on the other hand, are implied to have been trained their entire lives from birthto deal with people like AVALANCHE. Also, they give up a bunch of times in the OG when they decide 'Screw this, I'm outta here' fighting AVALANCHE.

And they NEVER admit their failures! AVALANCHE are subsequently bothered by their failures, the innocents that died because of them. Cloud is upset that his actions in bringing about Meteorfall and wants to redeem himself. He doesn't decide 'I'M THE KING OF THE WOOORRLD!' after Meteorfall, he sets up a delivery service and gets depressed. And he views himself as a failure because of the people he couldn't protect.

The Turks, however, consistently portray themselves as badasses no matter how badly they fuck up and who pays the price (They keep saying things like 'We're the Turks' in a way that implies 'we're professional badasses, buddy') They're bothered by Heidegger using them as mere diversions (the way they themselves used the Shinra soldiers in Mission 3 and 14).

[/B]

Ha ha, I know. That's what makes them so endearing. "By retreating today, we remain victorious!" Let's just say their view of their own importance isn't entirely commensurate with reality. But whose is?

And I love the original cast of FFVII, don't get me wrong. I adore Tifa and Barret. (Vincent not so much). But somehow I don't get inspired to write stories about them.

I'm not disagreeing with any of what you say, Clement. It's just that I like them the way they are.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
But... that description encompasses the original game cast much better than the Turks. Barret is a pissed off coal miner who picked up a gun. Tifa is not special, neither is Cid, Red, Yuffie. The only special guy on the team is Cloud, and he's not that special. He's Mako enhanced, sure, but so is every other SOLDIER, and that doesn't make them world beaters. Cloud wins because of his drive, not because of his enhancements. and he beat Sephiroth the first time as a random kid in a tiny village with no enhancements at all. He's an ordinary kid, with a stubborn streak. Oh, and Vincent the optional side character. Aerith is special, but not in an especially combat capable way.

The Turks, on the other hand, are implied to have been trained their entire lives from birthto deal with people like AVALANCHE. Also, they give up a bunch of times in the OG when they decide 'Screw this, I'm outta here' fighting AVALANCHE.

What a fascinating viewpoint. I never thought of it that way.
 

Novus

Pro Adventurer
A few years back I attempted to watch this, because I thought all FF fans had to. Quit after the first youtube 'episode'.
Funny how hardly anyone from the biggest ff7 site hasn't either.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
That he did. Good times. :monster:

As far as I know, Shademp, S and G, and myself are the only ones who have hated ourselves enough to subject our souls to the entire thing.
 
How wrong you are!

A few months ago Cameo streamed the whole thing over a series of weekends and a bunch of us watched it together. It was great fun. Cameo is an astute analyst and pointed out something I'd failed to notice: the Turks are not primarily warriors and it's not their job to "kill all enemies"; they have a mission to complete, which is usually gathering information or fetching something, and if they can complete it by sneaking round the enemy, that's okay.

I think I know this game better than most people on these boards, having watched every episode at least three times, and while I can't speak for the gameplay, the story itself becomes less ridiculous the better you get to know it.
 
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Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
But... that description encompasses the original game cast much better than the Turks. Barret is a pissed off coal miner who picked up a gun. Tifa is not special, neither is Cid, Red, Yuffie. The only special guy on the team is Cloud, and he's not that special. He's Mako enhanced, sure, but so is every other SOLDIER, and that doesn't make them world beaters. Cloud wins because of his drive, not because of his enhancements. and he beat Sephiroth the first time as a random kid in a tiny village with no enhancements at all. He's an ordinary kid, with a stubborn streak. Oh, and Vincent the optional side character. Aerith is special, but not in an especially combat capable way.

Red XIII is very special.

The Turks, on the other hand, are implied to have been trained their entire lives from birthto deal with people like AVALANCHE. Also, they give up a bunch of times in the OG when they decide 'Screw this, I'm outta here' fighting AVALANCHE.

No, Cissnei is stated to have been with Shinra her entire life, that's about it. Most of the others were recruited of the street after AVALANCHE situation started.
 
I can forgive a game for being stupid. I enjoy Dirge of Cerberus because the moments when it feels like a fanfiction make me laugh; it's such an over-the-top, laughable experience that I can't help but love it. I can forgive some key themes of FFVII being poorly handled or outright damaged by Advent Children and Crisis Core.

But Before Crisis is the physical manifestation of boredom. A game, or story, being boring is A LOT worse in my head, than any corruption of past themes or contradictions in the lore.

The monotone, sleep-inducing music in Before Crisis is the main contributor of this. Listening to the music makes ten minutes feel like an hour, while trying your best to stay awake during that time.

There are small things, across the experience, that I have gripes with. For example, there is NO DEATH ANIMATION. The enemies just vanish into non-existence. Not even a moment where they blink momentarily in and out...they just vanish. There is no sound effect for their defeat either. On top of that, there is no victory tune.

The list goes on about stuff that the game lacks. Each character only has one single profile pic shown in dialogue boxes; it does not change according to the character's emotions. There are also no emotive sprite animations to make up for it either. Only the text express what the characters are feeling, which would be fine if this was a book. Instead I'm forced to watch what I usually perceived as a very boring, non-moving image, while the "book story" unravelled.

There are also sheer displays of laziness, which I don't think has anything to do with the technical limitations of ye olde 2004 cell phone. In chapter 8, two icicles block Player Turk's path.
5cvleYR.png

...They "block" her path. They. BLOCK. HER. PATH. The game tells us that she can't move until she has dodged all the falling icicles, and those in the ground next to her magically vanish. How difficult would it have been to adapt the graphics so it looked like her entire path was covered? You could have increased the size of the icicles that get stuck in the ground and then instead made a game of her needing to destroy an icicle to clear her path.

The same thing happens in Chapter 14, when Yuffie pushes down a statue to block the path of AVALANCHE. See 3:56-4:12 in this video. The statue isn't blocking the full path. The AVALANCHE members could easy jump over the statue either way. This ridiculous scenario could have been made better if they just increased the size of the statues. But both the graphics and the game design are lazy here.

In Chapter 22, Player Turk ascends through Shinra HQ (65th floor up to 68th) so that he/she can get a helicopter. All the rooms...are empty. There is no furniture ANYWHERE. They don't try in the least to make these floors look like what they were in the original game. The only thing you fight on your way is the monster "Sample:H0512", which we're supposed to believe has been released in groups across all the floors. These gameplay elements are so lazily put in, without even an attempt at making sense, that the intermissions between the story segments feel all the more pointless.

I had traces of excitement when new Turk members were introduced, but that excitement never paid off because for 99,9% of the time, the only playable Turk you get to see is the one that you are, indeed, playing as. I was curious to learn about the quirks and styles of these other Turks, but the only way to know their characters is to play through Before Crisis over a dozen times. This is a huge waste. There should have been scenarios where Turk X will appear if you are playing Turk Y. If you are playing as Turk X, then maybe Turk Y or Turk Z will appear instead. Nope. You don't get any of this, except for in the very final chapter.


If it is true that there could be no victory tunes, death animations, additional character profiles, expressive character animations etc all because of limited space and processing capabilities, that does not make my judgment any lighter. Either the presentation should have been optimized to offer good 'game feel' or it should not have been made as a mobile phone game in the first place.


I can say, without hyperbole, that watching all the chapters of Before Crisis was one of the most agonizingly boring things I have done in my life. I am not exaggerating for the sake comedic effect, or to get thanks for being a "loud hater" (which is not my intention). From the bottom of my heart...Before Crisis, the cell phone game, is the worst that the Compilation has ever offered us. If you are going to learn about Before Crisis, just read chapter summaries or the game script. Don't feel compelled to watch the videos.
 
Can't disagree with any of that (except about it being the most agonisingly boring game ever. For me, that honour goes to Dokepon Kingdom). Although IMO the game script doesn't always make sense unless you see it in context. (or rather, makes somewhat more sense when you see it in context).

It's okay, Shademp, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to change your opinion of this game (I'll leave that to Cam, who does a far better job of defending it than I could). I can't really speak to the gameplay anyway, and I'll take your word for it that many of its shortcomings were due to laziness rather than technical limitations. It's just that I've grown fond of this game - or rather, story, since I have never and will never play it. That's all.
 
Nor would I try to convince you, LicoriceAllsorts, to stop enjoying Before Crisis. It doesn't matter how many points one can list as to why a given piece of media is good or bad. People are still very much allowed to enjoy/dislike it and it's not something anyone can (or should even want to) take away.

One aspect of Before Crisis that I have some enjoyment reserved for, is Elfe. I like her character design and the little we get to see of her personality. Her theme song is nice and the two vocalized versions on the official BC soundtrack are neat compositions too. Hence why I like this video:


The final chapter of Before Crisis was the one where I felt the least bored, thanks to everything in that final area being filled with NEW stuff. The theme for the battle against Zirconiaide was refreshing in the mobile phone version and having heard the theme in that context probably makes me enjoy the CD version even more.
- Desperate Crisis
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
Red XIII is very special.

Well, he's a talking dog like thing yes, but he's not special from a combat perspective. Strong, yes, but I think the point is that there's not much about him that makes him inherently super strong, even though by deed he is (like the rest of the normal characters in the game)
 
One aspect of Before Crisis that I have some enjoyment reserved for, is Elfe. I like her character design and the little we get to see of her personality. Her theme song is nice and the two vocalized versions on the official BC soundtrack are neat compositions too. Hence why I like this video:

That was a treat, thanks. She's like a proto-Lightning.
 

CameoAmalthea

Pro Adventurer
There are also sheer displays of laziness, which I don't think has anything to do with the technical limitations of ye olde 2004 cell phone. In chapter 8, two icicles block Player Turk's path..

Before Crisis:

Good Story? YES

Well made Game: No

While I have mentioned the few neat things (integration of cell's camera feature to allow IRL photos to be used as a game mechanic and GPS to have IRL location impact in game events) they got out of the cell phone format, in general I'll agree it's not great to look at.

Although, if someone can give me an example of a better cell phone game from the era let me know. I remember in 2006 I finished a math final in high school and had nothing to for an hour so I tried downloading a game on my phone to play (I think it was Elder Scrolls). I HATED it and gave up playing it immediately. That doesn't mean Elder Scrolls Oblivion was a bad game, just that the cell phone version wasn't great.

Cell phone games made for flip phones suck, the only thing that works well on such phones are basic games like Tetras, snake, pong...those sorts of very basic things.

As Lic mentioned last winter I did a weakly stream with the ladies from the Turk thread where we watched BC together and commented on it. I don't think I could have gotten through watching it (and I LOVE it) without the group because being able to discuss it/sometimes mocking certain aspects really helped alleviate the boredom. (BC = best watched with a group of people, a lot of talking and possibly a glass of wine).

Honestly, if someone could edit a play through to cut out the combat so we could just watch the story it would be better, because it's boring game play to watch. And I'll admit the lack of cut scenes means a lot of reading/not much to really watch.

That said, BC does have an excellent story if you can wade through watching the game to focus on what happens. Yes, it would be better if more play throughs were available so we could see how different character interact differently, but it's fun seeing Shotgun's personality shine through in the play through we do have. Also, the time you spend with the story, the more you notice all the story aspects that are actually brilliant.

Like rescuing Tifa's cat. At first glance: This is stupid. Why is my character rescuing an overly adorable cat from a tree. I'm a Turk, and I'm literally helping a little girl rescue her cat in this game. WHAT?

Here's why it's brilliant.

http://cameoamalthea.tumblr.com/post/49868064214/bc-turks-and-tifas-cat

Best juxtaposition ever.
 
I'd say Rufus is the definition of an antagonist who is not a villain. There is nothing evil about him, or if there is it is no more than what one finds in most normal people. He's not crazy, either.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
One of my problems with the cat scene is what it does to Tifa.

Now let's be clear, I'm not the guy who always goes berserk at every changed comma from the OG, but this scene is fundamentally changed in a way that diminishes Tifa as a character.

When her mom died, Tifa wandered into the mountains and was nearly killed. In the OG, she doesn't let this stop her from becoming a local official guide, showing genuine courage. Here, she's just too dozy to realise that the cat is in less danger than she is, AND, perfectly remembers a route she's travelled once (even though she's able to adapt when the bridge snaps under Sephiroth and co and give tour guide speeches about the materia cave.) It devalues her as a character.

No, Cissnei is stated to have been with Shinra her entire life, that's about it. Most of the others were recruited of the street after AVALANCHE situation started.

Alright, but most of them were recruited to begin with for being somebody special, wiping out the people who kidnapped their friend or excelling in military school. My point stands. And Red XIII isn't that special combat wise.

he Turks are not primarily warriors and it's not their job to "kill all enemies"; they have a mission to complete, which is usually gathering information or fetching something, and if they can complete it by sneaking round the enemy, that's okay.

Which would be fine if they weren't even worse at that than running around killing people.
 
Clement, I think to some extent you are confusing game mechanics with characterisation. Also you are being a bit hypocritical, because you used to complain that in my fic the Turks were never faced with credible enemies and never screwed up, and yet in BC they do have credible enemies who are cleverer and more powerful than they are, and who need to be this way for the game to avoid ending in the very first episode (Elfe, Fuhito and Shears all successfully eliminated by Turks. Game Over). And now you are blaming the Turks for being incompetent.

It's a bit like wondering how it's possible that Cloud and his companions can defeat Reno on the pillar, fight their way into the Shinra Building, defeat Hojo's thing (Experiment HOS2 or whatever it's called), and then, when success is almost within their grasp, allow themselves to be taken prisoner in the elevator by a couple of Turks armed with nothing but sunglasses and sarcasm. Cloud doesn't even try to fight. How is this possible? He, Barret and Tifa could easily defeat Rude and Tseng, but the next we see them they're being dragged in front of the President with their hands tied behind their backs. Are we to mock them for allowing themselves to be taken prisoner by two Turks? We can't even say that it would be too dangerous to fight 69 floors up in a glass elevator, because Aerith, Barret and Red XIII do precisely that not much later in the game.

Cloud and Co are captured by Turks because the narrative requires them to be inside the Shinra Building at the moment when Jenova/Sephiroth awakens and murders the President. Outside of battle, video game characters' powers and abliities fluctuate in accordance with what the story requires of them at any given moment in the plot. This is a known thing (and especially with Square Enix). It's not unique to Before Crisis and its Turks.

And it's kind of ridiculous to say that the party in FFVII were not special people. They may not have realised they were special (except for Yuffie) but it's obvious they're not ordinary either: Cid was chosen to be their world's first astronaut, Tifa was an exceptionally gifted student of martial arts with years of training behind her, Vincent is an ex-Turk (had to get that one in), Yuffie has been training all her life to be a ninja, Barret has a gun instead of an arm, for god's sake, and he knows how to use it, and Red XIII is the scion of a long line of warriors. I's not like they were just five housewives plucked from their kitchen sinks to save the world, come on.
 
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