Before Crisis is canon but shoddy.

[Clement Rage]

Heheheh... I just wrote a huge post and lost it... I suppose that's as good an omen as any.

TTM, I don't see any huge failures here. This is a games forum, long debates about aspects of a game are par for the course. The worst we can say is that we both wasted our time.

Do you realize this? Regardless of Rufus's motivation, the things you say about endangering the world just do not make any sense whatsoever. At all. You are describing a cackling maniac, but won't acknowledge it.

How does putting himself first in any way make sense of what you claim are attempts to sabotage the effort he has himself been leading to stop Sephiroth's resurrection? How does he benefit from a scenario where the SHM can't be stopped?

I don't feel his options are as binary as that. Cloud is one plan, not the only workable one, as long as he can keep JENOVA out of their hands, he can come up with something else. Two of the SHM were brought to the brink of defeat by one well placed explosive, Cloud is not the only option for defeating them. But withholding information that might best equip Cloud to deal with the threat says that Rufus is prioritising not giving out information that might incriminate him later with the WRO or AVALANCHE over equipping Cloud as best he can. I find his actions inconsistent with someone really afraid of JENOVA puppetry.

Don't confuse how I see the situation, from the point of view of a gameplayer/viwer, with how Rufus sees the situation. I'm not arguing that Cloud should trust Rufus or give him "the benefit of his arc". Cloud will always think Rufus is a self-aggrandising dick and will never trust him. As I keep saying, of course it's easy from my superior vantage point to see what would have been the best course of action, objectively speaking. My point, and I think Tres' point as well (though I cannot speak for him) is that Rufus's actions are understandable and even justifiable, given the fact that he knows much less about Cloud's character development arc than we do.

I don't think I did? I brought up Rufus' past world risking, then you brought up Cloud's, and told me to give Rufus the benefit of his arc when you hadn't mentioned Cloud getting over his too. I didn't think any of those arguments were meant to be in universe.

Long ago, on page six, I said I didn't find Rufus' redemption convincing. I still think his actions as shown equally fit a man that just wants his throne back. I think Case of Shinra is more ambiguous than you're giving it credit, I think it's no coincidence that the Dr dies after both saying he wants JENOVA and saying that he can't provide a cure.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Two of the SHM were brought to the brink of defeat by one well placed explosive ...

Well, if this egregious misunderstanding isn't the perfect note to end on, I don't know what would be ...

 

[Clement Rage]

I still don't think I'm wrong, but I'm sorry you got so annoyed, TTM. I wasn't trying to upset anyone.

Well, if this egregious misunderstanding isn't the perfect note to end on, I don't know what would be ...

This is TLS. There's only one perfect note to end on.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

 

[Tashasaurous]

Uh, what's Gun(Female)'s Limit Break? I've tried looking it up, but nothing has what I'm looking for and I have no idea what it is. See this Turk is the protagonist of my fanfic cross over story "Kingdom Hearts: Before Crisis" but as I'm getting closer to finishing it, I'm having trouble with her limit break, especially since I've never got the chance to play Final Fantasy VII: Before Crisis and that game has shut down permamently last year.

 

[Torrie]

I've been binge-watching Before Crisis on Grimoire Valentine's Youtube channel for the last few days, after having seen some brief episodes or having read about this game and its characters theoretically. Initially, I started watching with some plot research purposes, because Shotgun appears in my fic, so I needed to track down her character development but I quickly got submerged into this fascinating story.

Also, reading all these heated discussions on TLS makes me think that I might either still have very little knowledge of what makes a good narrative (despite constantly learning about it), or have poor analytical skills, or I'm just not a big fan of nit-picking but...

...but I liked Before Crisis. No kidding, I really, really liked Before Crisis.

But all of you make great points (until you stumble into off-topic, but that's inevitable haha), no, seriously, great critical thinking, everyone. The only problem with it that I have is that when someone says that something could objectively be improved or handled better, I genuinely want to know how exactly it could be carried out but can't come up with any solutions myself. It only leads to more frustration, but that's obviously my problem, not yours.

I actually enjoyed the music a lot. And I especially liked its monotony, which Shademp despised so much, as it didn't make certain events too melodramatic. I loved the black suits. I liked the way the old OG backgrounds were utilized. I even thought how nice it would have been to have the OG painted the same way instead of having that polygon insanity. Right, there are no character sprites unlike in FF6 and earlier, which makes the game super serious to the point of solemnity but without it being cringe-worthy, and I enjoyed it too. Yes, it's like watching a book and activating your imagination as an extra asset at the same time. Sure, some dungeons were indeed boring and unnecessary, so I skipped them most of the time. This game shouldn't have been a game, seriously. The suspense at the end of the chapters is top-notch, hell, I even enjoyed the way the scriptwriters went full Charles Dickens on the ending and gave the player some pleasant closure bringing the MIA Turks back to business.

I liked the fact that some characters like Cissnei, Hollander, Shalua had already been introduced in BC before they appeared in the later titles. And the expansion of the already existing characters from the OG. And the variety among the Turks, and the team spirit that they had. What I didn't enjoy, however, is indeed retcons and inconsistencies, which can be deliberately overlooked if we view BC as a standalone title out of the compilation lore. Like, the portrayal of Tifa or Aerith in BC differs a lot from their portrayal in CC, for instance, and I wouldn't put it past the creators that they simply didn't care that much at that point. Not to mention the infamous Nibelheim incident. *dramatic facepalm*

Also, I'm a bit confused about the canonicity of some names. Should Elfe be pronounced as Elf, or EL-fee, or EL-fei? Sears or Shears? Veld or Verdot?

Looking at the Turks now, I don't really think they're too much of anything in terms of the good/evil spectrum. They're talented, but ultimately regular minded people with an extremely amoral job (that I also agree that BC failed to really illustrate) that has them to some pretty fucked up shit for a paycheck.

I didn't find the illustration of the amorality that unsuccessful. There were plenty of situations where the Turks had to evaluate the priorities properly, but basically whatever choice they would make paves the way to failure because of the nature of their job. Tseng's episode and his entire career was a particularly good example of how someone has to grow a callous heart in order to do the assigned job. Verdot basically does the same, but Tseng's plot is more dynamic and thus more illustrative.

TL;DR I've definitely developed a soft spot for Before Crisis and I'm proud of that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I love Before Crisis too, I think it's probably one of the most interesting premised stories, it just is sadly too episodic, and limited by its resources. It needs to tighten it's story and better manage the FFVII main character cameos, but over all it would be a fun as hell story to play and see rehauled into a proper game.

The music's charming in it's old-school goodness too. I really hope Square's new trademark filings point to Before Crisis getting a rebirth because it's literally the only Compilation title to get zero exposure whatsoever beyond Japan. And even it's exposure in Japan has been gone for over a decade. It's clearly relevant to the FFVII Remake so it needs to happen.

 

[cold_spirit]

That's a refreshing perspective @Torrie. Starting to feel like I'm missing out having not invested in the story. Can confirm that the soundtrack is great though. Theme of Elfe, Black Beat, Rebirth, I love Takeharu Ishimoto's work on BC and the Compilation at large.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm still just appalled it never made it off of cellphones. Fucking Kingdom Hearts Coded made it off of phones.

 

[Clement Rage]

Hmm, I wonder what I did to make TTM give up on me (but not enough to go back and check)

BC is an insanely good game in terms of mobile phone games in 2004. The fundamental story is fine, and the AVALANCHE v Turks chapters are the most solid. There's the standard characterisation problems of the Turks of 'if you don't like doing all these scummy things, why not stop?', but that goes beyond this entry.

Apart from that, all you need need to do is cut out some chapters. Cut Wutai. Cut Cosmo Canyon. Cut Rocket Town. Cut the first two Nibelheim chapters, have the Turks just arrive in the aftermath of a burning town. Cut Gongaga. Take Cloud out of the Rayleigh chapter.

Keep Zack and Aeris, maybe Barret. Crisis Core has much more space, but doesn't go as overboard in tying into things.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So just eviscerate Before Crisis.

Got it.

I fail to see what's gained from removing Cloud's BC chapter, especially. That was an integral piece of development on the formation of the pseudo-SOLDIER Ravens, and showcased the hidden potential that existed in Cloud yet prevented him from being able to make it in SOLDIER. He actually was an above average MP, with an innate talent for swordsmanship.

And I really don't know why you want to further exclude Red XIII when he's already barely present in other shit as is. Showcasing how he got captured by Shinra in FFVII is pretty relevant as well.

 

[ForceStealer]

So just eviscerate Before Crisis.

Got it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm imagining going to the doctor and the doctor says,

"I'm sorry but we have to surgically remove and replace... Your whole body, sir."

 

[Clement Rage]

Maybe they were commissioned to make a 24 chapter game, and had to fill the time somehow, I dunno. I can see your perspective, Mako, I tend not to like 'they should have done this' criticisms.

Re Cloud I meant to keep that chapter, but replace him with interchangeable infantryman. It actually improves the story they're going for, because it makes the interchangeable infantry important in general rather than this specific person.

A lot of the cameo chapters add very little beyond the cameo itself. Yuffie doesn't need another reason to hate Shinra, they've already destroyed Wutai once.

Red's chapter has Deneh, which messes with 'the last of my race'.

Rocket Town actually damages Cid's story, as it means Shera was wrong, the damage came from last minute sabotage instead of their different approaches to engineering.

And so on. It's not a bad game, but the story they want to tell doesn't fit on the tech available for mobile phone games in 2004.

Edit: I probably said all this like three pages ago, didn't I?

 

[Odysseus]

My own philosophy with this game is that, until it's made available in some official capacity again, most if its events can be disregarded. In my eyes all this game does is take away from the original, while offering little in return besides needless retcons and nothing characters in the form of the OC Turks for this game. I know it has its fans, but I think there's a reason Befor Crisis was buried.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud's the main character of FFVII, he deserves a cameo, especially since he worked for Shinra. Seeing him around and your playable Turk encountering him is not beyond the realm of possibility.

The whole Deneh thing is important because it explains how the hell he gets babies. Bugenhagen in FFVII even hinted that he wasn't the last of his race when talking to him one last time. Having an explanation and showcase of how Red XIII was captured is also within the realm of possibility. That's not a big deal, and the explanation helps. Red XIII thinking she would never come back again was his own misunderstanding of the Cosmo Canyon ritual due to being a child.

I honestly don't care about Cid's story. It could be scrapped or dramatically reduced. I agree that it's pretty silly.

But I don't think Red XIII's or Cloud's cameos are ones deserving to be axed. They're actually very relevant.

My own philosophy with this game is that, until it's made available in some official capacity again, most if its events can be disregarded. In my eyes all this game does is take away from the original, while offering little in return besides needless retcons and nothing characters in the form of the OC Turks for this game. I know it has its fans, but I think there's a reason Befor Crisis was buried.

It wasn't buried, it was simply not released.

The numerous important points of this game have carried over far beyond what would be considered a non-important game. Cissnei was in BC first. The main headquarters AVALANCHE and everything about them came from this too. Shalua, Shelke, Azul, and Zack's mourning of his two other buddies all come from this. BC is very important, it just... Never god adapted elsewhere. It's a "lost series" but not an unimportant one.

The retcons are dumb but they're honestly not that important. They're inconsistencies akin to picking either Scenario Jill or Chris in Resident Evil. In the end we know the jist of what really happened, what the main details are and what we should go by in canon. The minutiae doesn't effect much going forward and should just be looked at case-by-case. And most of the time, the inconsistency on BC's end just get ignored later on.

Before Crisis is going to continue to be relevant and I'm positive it will eventually get adapted/remade. The Remake sets it up, and those OC Turks will return as well. Their designs are not going to be forgotten about, and I'm willing to bet they're even gonna show up again as optional bosses or important NPCs. Maybe even at the Gold Saucer...

 

[Clement Rage]

Sometimes the best thing to do for a character is not have them cameo. I don't think it's a bad game, its limitations are mostly a result of being a mobile phone game in 2004.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

BC is at it's best when it's showing new scenes about what working for Shinra is like. Stuff like Cloud's Trooper days, like the original AVALANCHE, like Red XIII getting caught, like Azul joining Shinra, like Zack dealing with the loss of SOLDIER friends... All of those work well (more than well even) because they're not events we knew of before. There's nothing to retcon in those scenes.

BC has a lot harder time when it's showing scenes of the Compilation where we already know how they happened. But those scenes being stretched a bit doesn't invalidate all the new scenes that do work.

And honestly, most of BC is new and isn't a retcon at all. Most of the retcons are a variation of "AVALANCHE wants to mess things up for Shinra where ever they can and tons of people get caught in the crossfire". You can take out most of BC's retcons and the entire story of BC still works just as well. BC stands just fine on it's own, which is why a lot of people who like BC's story focus on that and kinda pretend the recons didn't happen.

 

[Clement Rage]

My usual practice is to just ask 'does this cameo add to the story or take away from it?' (Must...not...cite... Star Wars)

The game wants to do cameos for fan service, but doesn't want to spend the necessary time to make them work (I'm not blaming the devs for this, sometimes you really are not paid enough to do too much work)

Tifa had a specific near death experience in the Nibelheim mountains when she was younger, it says something different about her that when she grew up she became the town's top guide to the mountains. It says something different if she has just randomly chased a cat the day before. Also, that means Player Turk knows the way to the reactor and they have no need for a local guide at all.

Yuffie's story is just redundant, she already has a reason to dislike Shinra.

We have Barret in the reactor just before it blows up...so where is Dyne? They can't introduce him because another character is a complication they don't have time for, and some people will have forgotten he exists and get confused. This is one of the better cameos, though, because there's a storyline purpose.

Rocket Town changes Cid and Shera's whole dynamic, it's the pivotal moment in their stories, it goes very differently if the damage to the oxygen tank happened in a terrorist attack the day before rather than their philosophical differences over time.

It is very important to Cloud's story that no one knows who he is. Having big moments prior to Nibelheim reactor doesn't help tell that story, it hurts it.

How Red got captured or why he's not the last doesn't need to be explored, it doesn't add anything to the narrative. Not adding anything isn't a problem by itself, but these cameos hurt the stories of the characters that are cameoing.

And cumulatively, it becomes increasingly implausible that player Turk has encountered all these people with grand destinies at formative moments in their lives...and never tells anyone or brings it up again.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It is very important to Cloud's story that no one knows who he is. Having big moments prior to Nibelheim reactor doesn't help tell that story, it hurts it.

It's important to FFVII's story. Before Crisis isn't FFVII, it's the story of the Turks who worked for Shinra and experienced the conflict between AVALANCHE and Shinra. The whole point of BC isn't to just stay completely constrained by the same storyline beats of the OG, but to show us a new story with a unique perspective. Clearly, showcasing what Cloud was like before we knew him in FFVII is one of those important points. He's on the cover poster art of BC for a reason. Cloud's story in Final Fantasy VII is where it's a mystery, since that all hinges on Cloud's mysterious origin and the whole duplicity of how he portrays himself versus what he really is. BC isn't beholden to that.

You're right that BC tries to do too many cameos, but Cloud's not one of them. He's one of those that matters.

How Red got captured or why he's not the last doesn't need to be explored, it doesn't add anything to the narrative. Not adding anything isn't a problem by itself, but these cameos hurt the stories of the characters that are cameoing.

For someone who just referenced a connection to FFVII's story as being important, I really don't get how you can say knowing how Red XIII got kids and isn't the last of his species, isn't important. It certainly is, and directly ties to FFVII itself. Yes, knowing how Red XIII can somehow have 2 cubs in the ending is memorable. Like, I don't get how you say it doesn't add anything when it functionally answers a question that didn't have an answer, and was hinted at in the game. Yeah, it could stay unanswered with Red XIII looking like an uninformed melodramatic, but it also could easily be answered by showing this main character's backstory that does tie into the Turks. So much of him is never known or expanded on, he ends up like the Freya of FFVII. So, considering his chapter was a down-time chapter where The playable turk was getting back into the swing of things, I fail to see what the problem is in having one of the lesser showcased characters actually get a well deserved spot.

BC is meant to have cameos, and it should. But it shouldn't have all of the main characters of FFVII be cameos. The reason is because it serves as a look into the past of Shinra, and several main characters do have connections to Shinra, so yeah. Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth, Red XIII, Aerith, and Vincent make perfect sense to appear. They have connections that run deep with the company.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

someone who just referenced a connection to FFVII's story as being important, I really don't get how you can say knowing how Red XIII got kids and isn't the last of his species, isn't important. It certainly is, and directly ties to FFVII itself. Yes, knowing how Red XIII can somehow have 2 cubs in the ending is memorable. Like, I don't get how you say it doesn't add anything when it functionally answers a question that didn't have an answer, and was hinted at in the game. Yeah, it could stay unanswered with Red XIII looking like an uninformed melodramatic, but it also could easily be answered by showing this main character's backstory that does tie into the Turks. So much of him is never known or expanded on, he ends up like the Freya of FFVII. So, considering his chapter was a down-time chapter where The playable turk was getting back into the swing of things, I fail to see what the problem is in having one of the lesser showcased characters actually get a well deserved spot.

Because it makes him look like an idiotic drama queen in the main FFVII. For how little expansion the Compilation bothered to give him, rendering him an annoying twat monster in his primary/original appearance is an abject failure.

BC is meant to have cameos, and it should. But it shouldn't have all of the main characters of FFVII be cameos. The reason is because it serves as a look into the past of Shinra, and several main characters do have connections to Shinra, so yeah. Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth, Red XIII, Aerith, and Vincent make perfect sense to appear. They have connections that run deep with the company.

I don't even really count including them as problematic in itself. As you said, it doesn't not make sense for the Turks to show up for these circumstances -- and by the time you've included pretty much everyone anyway, you may as well go whole hog and throw Red, Yuffie, and Cid in there somewhere too.

Where it becomes a problem to me is just the poor implementation at times. When it's bad, it's not just a little bad. The continuity for Red and Barret is unforgivably disastrous, with Red in particular. (And when we're speaking of continuity and BC, we can't ignore the problem with the fight in the Mt. Nibel reactor.)

While linking the old Avalanche to Cid's dream being scuttled is perhaps a step too far to avoid incredulity (at least Avalanche didn't have their fingers in the Nibelheim Incident), it's hardly the worst thing. Likewise dropping the players' Turk onto Aerith's flower bed is a bit cringey, but not as bad as they could have made it be (e.g. had they fallen from the reactor, I'd still be flipping tables).

I mean, on the whole I like BC. I definitely like its story and what it brings to the setting far more than CC's equivalent contributions. I just find it so incredibly hard to forgive the Mt. Nibel reactor confrontation and the disservice done to Red (the misfire with Barret ranks lower in offense than these, but is the icing on the shit cake).

 

[Obsidian Fire]

For me, it's also what is actually going on when the Cameo happens. Cloud's cameo works because... MPs guard Shinra executives. And Cloud was an MP. So that means he guards Shinra executives. Running into Cloud doing a job he would be doing on a regular basis makes sense. Both Cloud and the Turks are running around making sure AVALANCHE isn't getting into what they shouldn't at Shinra. Same thing with Sephrioth and Zack showing up. Armed Shinra employees would know about each other while a terrorist group is trying to bring their employer down.

This is also why Red XIII's cameo works better than the others. We have no idea in the OG how or why he got picked up by Hojo. Just that he did. We also know Red XIII has... really big issues with the idea of cowardice and leaving other people behind due to him not knowing what happened with Seto. So him "proving" to himself that he's better than his dad who just left Cosmo Canyon to it's fate fits what we know of him.

The reason why those cameos work where a lot of the others don't mainly has to do with how we already know the story of why the OG AVALANCHE characters are the way they are from the OG. We don't need a new reason for what happened to make them how they are. But finding out that Cloud is tougher than he looks on the job doesn't change how his OG backstory works. Neither does finding out how Red XIII got captured by Shinra. Or that Zack and the Turks respect each other because they both know they've lost good people to AVALANCHE.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because it makes him look like an idiotic drama queen in the main FFVII. For how little expansion the Compilation bothered to give him, rendering him an annoying twat monster in his primary/original appearance is an abject failure.

The writing leaned too hard into Red XIII being immature and childish. And if I remember correctly, he misunderstood the entire nature of what the ritual was itself.

I mean, on the whole I like BC. I definitely like its story and what it brings to the setting far more than CC's equivalent contributions. I just find it so incredibly hard to forgive the Mt. Nibel reactor confrontation and the disservice done to Red (the misfire with Barret ranks lower in offense than these, but is the icing on the shit cake).

This is what I mean when I say it feels too episodic. The cameos come fast while the writing is loose and feels like it was done by several different people who didn't source check or research the continuity to ensure consistency. It's like an old cartoon that had different writers of the week do different plots and just smushed them together. It's entertaining at times but also really weird and trips over itself.

A remake of BC I think would definitely do these things better because they need to be fixed. They simply felt half assed. Like, Red XIII is immature but they went ham with it lol, but it still was an extremely interesting event in the story.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't care about him being immature. What annoys me crapless is that he knew Dinne was supposed to be in the shrine for just three years, but when we get to Cosmo Canyon in the original game he's woe-is-me-ing that he's the last of his kind.

And then it annoys me that Bugenhagen is seemingly humoring this whiney-ass bitch's bullshit: "It's a wide world and you must go out and see it... You may even find your life's mate. You never know."

Oh, really, you think he might? I hope you sit on one of the golf ball-sized globes in your planetarium by accident, you floating Glo Worm.

And if I remember correctly, he misunderstood the entire nature of what the ritual was itself.

That's never indicated, no.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He was afraid of something in that chapter, though. He was anxious about Dineh/Dinne going into that ritual chamber, and thought he should do it instead of her. I guess I'll have to watch it again but if I remember, he feared for her safety.

Lol, I mean word choice aside, Bugenhagen is telling Dineh is out there waiting for him. Like I said, BC is weird with how it tells things. Its why it needs an overhaul the most to thread things together properly.