Before Crisis is canon but shoddy.

[Ite]

Am I the only one who likes some villians in anything to have a chance to redeem themselves once they realise their wrong doings?

No, you're not alone! I love a good redemption arc, and I think most people do. A very important part of a redemption arc is the initial wrongdoing (or series of wrongdoings) and from what I gather BC shied away or else failed to effectively execute that facet of the Turks?

The FF7 OG didn't really focus enough on the Turks to give them an explicit "redemption arc" but imo it felt like it. I mean, HOO-WEE, were they rotten at the beginning - the Pillar and the slap come to mind. But by the end of the game, I was hoping they'd be okay. It wasn't that they changed really, I just came to understand them a bit more. Contrasted with that "initial wrongdoing" that I mentioned - which FF7 executed very well - and it feels like just as big a change as a heel-face-turn.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Am I the only one who likes some villians in anything to have a chance to redeem themselves once they realise their wrong doings?

No, you're not alone! I love a good redemption arc, and I think most people do. A very important part of a redemption arc is the initial wrongdoing (or series of wrongdoings) and from what I gather BC shied away or else failed to effectively execute that facet of the Turks?

So do I! Thank you for that!

The FF7 OG didn't really focus enough on the Turks to give them an explicit "redemption arc" but imo it felt like it. I mean, HOO-WEE, were they rotten at the beginning - the Pillar and the slap come to mind. But by the end of the game, I was hoping they'd be okay. It wasn't that they changed really, I just came to understand them a bit more. Contrasted with that "initial wrongdoing" that I mentioned - which FF7 executed very well - and it feels like just as big a change as a heel-face-turn.

Yeah, and when you really think about it, Turks being bad in the beginning of the game was really just for show to hide how they were really feeling in their hearts, especially since Reno and Rude went out of their way to aid Cloud and his group to rescue both Yuffie and Elena, and how Tseng made no orders to attack them at the Mines either.

Before Crisis, Advent Children and Crisis Core made me understand them even more as well as understand more of both the background of the main characters and the future of everyone as well, which is two of the main reasons why I love the Compilation as I love the OG.

 

[Clement Rage]

Heheh, this thread, huh? Wow, that's a flash from the past.

I realise I'm an outlier on this, but everything the games tried to do to make me sympathise with the Turks made them look worse to me.

I respected them well enough my first playthrough, but I entirely missed the Wutai subquest. Then I found it, and for me, the scenes that were meant to be sympathetic just made them look significantly more evil than they were.

And the rest of the Compilation continued this trend. BC establishes that when they don't like an order, they're totally able and willing to wriggle out of it whenever they want, so any time they do something evil, that's because they didn't care enough to wriggle out of it.

Re Redemption, I don't really see it. I don't think we've seen them show remorse, regret, or sacrifice anything (they're willing to sacrifice things that belong to other people, but nothing of their own). I don't see anything to indicate that they are working towards redemption or have suffered to work towards it, and post Meteorfall, they pretty much ended up exactly where they wanted to be. They lost nothing, which is almost unique when compared to any other character. I haven't seen anything to indicate that they even want redemption or feel all that guilty, or have put in any work towards atonement.

If you compare to, say, Beatrix, who expresses doubts while under Brahne, and when she turns, acknowledges that it's too late for forgiveness, but tries to atone in what she thinks is a last stand to buy Garnet time to escape. She ends up running Alexandria because there's no one else, and then at the end of the game tries to retire when they don't need her anymore.

I haven't seen the Turks act like they're trying to atone, post Meteorfall, they're still acting for their own interests.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I could find more than one example if I wanted to look for it, but this dialogue from AC Complete should be sufficient to demonstrate that your premise is incorrect:

----
Reno: Who’d a thunk? A lot of Shinra’s people actually returned to work! Now that’s dedication. I’m tellin’ ya, this could be a fresh start!

Rude: Well, those left alive have a lot to atone for.

Reno: Two years already. Seems a lot longer than that. What a nightmare, huh? The world was nearly obliterated, and we were the obliterators. Seriously, though – how are we ever supposed to atone for that?
----

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Note: It's been a long time since I've originally played FFVII (when I was like, 12) and it's been a long time since I've posted in this thread. I can admit to the fact that FFVII's writing doesn't exactly have very much depth, even compared to later titles and especially compared to say, something like Dragon Age or Deus Ex. With that being said it's still a very enjoyable game and and narrative, just don't you know, look too much into it.

With that being said, I think people try to push the Turks too hard into 'good guy/bad guy/VERY GRAY LOOK HOW GRAY I AM' roles like Japanese media is pretty good at doing.

Looking at the Turks now, I don't really think they're too much of anything in terms of the good/evil spectrum. They're talented, but ultimately regular minded people with an extremely amoral job (that I also agree that BC failed to really illustrate) that has them to some pretty fucked up shit for a paycheck. Then the end of the world comes (that they sort of...helped indirectly), and being human, as in, not total monsters, Reno and Rude have a change in perspective and they feel pretty bad about it.

They're not made of the same heroic fiber that AVALANCHE is, nor are they out and out evil villains like Pres. Shinra or Sephiroth, either. The original FFVII did the best job at portraying this, and ultimately the Compilation really muddied the waters on their characterization a bunch. Again, BC didn't help for a lot of reasons, one reason being is that they were punching too far above their weight class via fighting super powered summons and WEAPONS and such, and two, they made AVALANCHE way morally worse than the Turks, which was already pointed out.

I feel that the Compilation really confused the Turks and pretty much the reason why we're having this conversation. The original game really got them right the first time.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Agreed.

@ Tres, fwiw, I think Clem was referring to BC only and not any further character development the Turks might have received elsewhere in the Compilation. In BC, their mantra always is: "I signed up for Shinra, so now I have to see it through no matter what...." which does seem like the motto of people whose defense is, "I was only following orders." BC is not an awful game, but it was a wasted opportunity.

 

[Clement Rage]

How about 'Together we can rebuild Shinra'. They don't seem very reformed to me, what with the whole 'siccing superpowered killers on Cloud while explaining nothing to him.' Even in Case of Shinra, Elena's hanging round out of personal loyalty to Tseng, Rude just can't imagine being anything else, and Reno has something ambiguous that may or may not be regret.

They're the only characters that get their redemption for free.

Part of this is a reaction to the fandom, which sometimes works really really hard to show that they don't have a choice but to do the things they do, while in the canon they never follow orders they don't like. I mean, I actually can't think of an example where they fully followed through on something they didn't want to do without rebelling at least somewhat.

The original FFVII did the best job at portraying this,

I agree... except for the Wutai quest.

 

[Octo]

Yep it was a load of bollocks, and fandom was largely to blame. In the OG there is hardly any screen time or interaction between Rufus and the Turks but y'know, fandom wants them all to be together because they are good looking.

So we have all this sycophantic crap devised about owing Rufus, and the Turks get flanderised. I preferred it when they were a law unto themselves, and I never wanted them to be the goody good guys.

And rebuilding Shinra is also a pile of wank. You don't get to behave as Shinra did and then atone and still get to keep your business. Can you imagine such a thing happening in real life? No in real life they'd get strung up with piano wire.

But I said all this shit before

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I agree... except for the Wutai quest.

If anything that gives them depth and consistency. It was established pretty early that the Turks have no real personal beef with AVALANCHE.

And rebuilding Shinra is also a pile of wank. You don't get to behave as Shinra did and then atone and still get to keep your business. Can you imagine such a thing happening in real life?

Yes you do and yes I can imagine it, because it happens all the time even in real life with real world empires (antagonistic or no) What would happen if various empires throughout history (including the USA), even the aggressive ones,, or not, just disappeared overnight?

Keep in mind I'm not defending Shinra. But at the same time, Shinra almost singlehandedly propelled the world of FFVII into the modern age, and propped up the entire planet's economy, infrastructure, culture, and collective defense for a generation. The world is in a precarious yet realistic position of being better off without Shinra in the long run but absolutely depending on it to function smoothly.

They can eventually rebuild without it, but I don't blame certain people for wanting certain elements of Shinra (namely, civilization) to return without the evil corporation shit attached with it.

 

[Octo]

Well I'm thinking of Shinra as a company not an empire, although granted the lines are blurred. What is to stop people rising up and forcibly taking control of the infrastucture without the people responsible getting to sit on top and continue enjoying their cushy lifestyles? Everyone is meant to just suck that up because there is meant to be something unique about Rufus Shinra that he has to be in charge like some god mode Mary Sue?

Edit: And Mussolini, Gadaffi etc, these fuckers get what is coming to them and arguably those guys did less than Shinra ie. they didn't actually jeopardise the entire planet.

My main issue is with the storytelling and what I believe motivates it, they wanted to maintain Shinra as an entity because they believe that is what the fans wanted, so they have to do some weird mental gymnastics where they get to 'atone' and still have Rufus swanning about like little lord Fauntleroy

 

[Cat Rage Room]

What is to stop people rising up and forcibly taking control of the infrastucture without the people responsible getting to sit on top and continue enjoying their cushy lifestyles? Everyone is meant to just suck that up because there is meant to be something unique about Rufus Shinra that he has to be in charge like some god mode Mary Sue?

Having Shinra back doesn't mean Rufus Shinra sitting on his ivory tower, eating grapes, though. It doesn't have to mean Rufus coming back to run the company at all. I do think Rufus is a capable and competent enough leader to truly reform (at least, enough) to get the world moving in a better direction, but either way, certain elements of Shinra reforming doesn't have to mean things being exactly as they were.

But Shinra DID prop up almost the entirety of Gaia. I think it's important to separate the idealistic from the pragmatic.

Edit: And Mussolini, Gadaffi etc, these fuckers get what is coming to them and arguably those guys did less than Shinra ie. they didn't actually jeopardise the entire planet.

Saddam Hussien absolutely got what was coming to him, and after he died, in a lot of ways shit got a lot worse for the people under him (and the region as a whole) as a direct result of his death. Shit's complicated like that, and I think a lot of times we forget that, even in our stories.

 

[Octo]

The infrastructure is there, the people -even people who already are employed by Shinra - could say right well this is ours now. I would think after experiencing near total destruction people would have reached the limit of what they are willing to put up with and grow a backbone.

I talk about Rufus and the Turks because that is what was being brought up, some sort of atonement on their parts, but I don't think its true atonement if they get to keep their positions, cos it wasn't like some mistake like an industrial accident, it was greed and they made life shitty for people long before that.

I just dont think it makes for a good story is all, and it all boils down to them not having the balls to keep a popular character - Rufus- dead like he was supposed to be

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The infrastructure is there, the people -even people who already are employed by Shinra - could say right well this is ours now.

They could! And it looks like they are; organizations like the WRO are sort of proof of that. But look at it this way; is there any real functional difference between the WRO and a hypothetical 'Not Evil Shinra'? I'd say not much. Shinra brought organization, economy, structure, and culture. Any sort of cohesive organization that brings those things that disappears overnight either 1. Comes up again in a different form or a different name (basically what happened in FFVII) 2. Everyone lives in abject misery until they get their shit together

I understand what you're saying, but it's very idealistic and not really rooted in...anything throughout human history.

I would think after experiencing near total destruction people would have reached the limit of what they are willing to put up with and grow a backbone.

Shinra returning does not mean taking shit.

I talk about Rufus and the Turks because that is what was being brought up, some sort of atonement on their parts, but I don't think its true atonement if they get to keep their positions, cos it wasn't like some mistake like an industrial accident, it was greed and they made life shitty for people long before that.

How do you know their intentions?

I just dont think it makes for a good story is all, and it all boils down to them not having the balls to keep a popular character - Rufus- dead like he was supposed to be

I perhaps can agree with that.

 

[Octo]

I understand what you're saying, but it's very idealistic and not really rooted in...anything throughout human history.

Fair enough, although dictators have been strung up for less. Sure things go to shit, things have gone to shit. I just think it makes a crappy story. Like if in Star Wars they blow up the Death Star and then Darth Vader and the Emperor come back and are like nooo we're reeeeeeeaaaaaalllllly sorry guise! That aint a satisfactory conclusion to me.

How do you know their intentions?

I know Rufus was quite happy to rule through fear prior to meterorfall. So the way I see it, he has had an 'oh shit' moment because the entire planet nearly got destroyed but he still wants to cling to power, otherwise all that weird manipulative shit he does in AC makes little sense- if he genuinely wanted to help and had pure motives. Had meteorfall not happened would he have had some revelation about not being a piece of shit? I doubt it.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Fair enough, although dictators have been strung up for less. Sure things go to shit, things have gone to shit. I just think it makes a crappy story. Like if in Star Wars they blow up the Death Star and then Darth Vader and the Emperor come back and are like nooo we're reeeeeeeaaaaaalllllly sorry guise! That aint a satisfactory conclusion to me.

There's degrees to this, though, Octo. While I wouldn't buy the Emperor seeking forgiveness (he really was pure evil), Darth Vader did seek absolvement for his crimes and to a degree he did redeem himself. But if he did survive, it would be perfectly realistic for him to slowly seek and (possibly, indeed not everyone gets it) find true remorse and redemption. I think you're looking at good/evil as a stark binary, and I don't think it's the right way to go.

With that being said, I'm glad that you brought up Star Wars before I did; there's a lot of EU stories about all of the chaos and collapse that resulted from the Empire's defeat.

I know Rufus was quite happy to rule through fear prior to meterorfall. So the way I see it, he has had an 'oh shit' moment because the entire planet nearly got destroyed but he still wants to cling to power, otherwise all that weird manipulative shit he does in AC makes little sense- if he genuinely wanted to help and had pure motives. Had meteorfall not happened would he have had some revelation about not being a piece of shit? I doubt it.

You can absolutely be ambitious and not be an evil villain, and want to help, or at least just be amoral and make your money without wanting to actively screw people over. If anything, some expressions of altruism require power. The idea that ambition and power are intrinsically 'evil' feelings is bullshit (I'm very ambitious, especially in real life, but I don't think I'm evil. Am I evil guys?), and while Rufus has a precedent and a track history to haunt and for people to rightly judge him for it, one could feel remorseful for how shit went down from your actions and still be ambitious.

For example, in the military, I was very ambitious and I wanted power, and I got promoted enough times into being a non commissioned officer to get it. Was it because I was evil or I wanted to lord over people? No. I just knew that in the infrastructure and organization I was in, being lower ranked and powerless not only personally sucked, but I couldn't effect any positive change (for myself or others) from being the equivalent of a Private. For me to be able to make things better for myself or anyone else, power and ambition was required. Now, as a civilian in the business world, that still rings true.

 

[Octo]

I never said ambition and power were intrinsically evil? Rufus is supposedly trying to 'atone' but his actions in AC show that he cares more about clinging to power. Maybe he's a little bit sorry? But not much.

And re: good/evil as a binary. Not at all, I wouldn't like the Turks otherwise, I don't think they are pure evil, I don't even think Rufus is pure evil. I'm just not willing to swallow this whole atonement thing when in universe his motives are not pure and out of universe the whole thing has been cooked up to allow the character a resurrection.

With that being said, I'm glad that you brought up Star Wars before I did; there's a lot of EU stories about all of the chaos and collapse that resulted from the Empire's defeat.

Of course but, I mean what is that saying really? Sometimes shit gets worse before it gets better right? Nobody would argue that the Empire should have stayed around (although they did have cool ships and uniforms) Although this is getting off onto a wider tangent that I don't really have the time to discuss, I dont feel like anyone would argue that an essentially fascist dictatorship should just be allowed to continue because they make the space freighters run on time

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I never said ambition and power were intrinsically evil? Rufus is supposedly trying to 'atone' but his actions in AC show that he cares more about clinging to power. Maybe he's a little bit sorry? But not much.

Forgive me; I'm sort of projecting on you my universal response for a sentiment I see a lot of; "YOU SEE, RUFUS STILL WANTS POWER AND HE'S AMBITIOUS! HE'S STILL A BAD GUY" I see a lot in the fandom.

But still, even if that's not what you're saying, I still interpret it differently; Rufus sees himself as a capable manager who's good at what he does, and doesn't want to give it up. You bring up 'clinging to power' as a bad thing, and in the context of what Rufus did and who he was, it is a bit of a black mark, but not entirely.

I think that Rufus good and well knows that the era of the Shinra company and family ruling Gaia is over. But that doesn't mean that he has to live in a sewer, either. I don't blame him for wanting to return to a position he's good at and where he's accustomed. It's what he does with that power that'll define him, and with that being said, I don't get the impression that he's only 'a little bit sorry'.

To me, someone only being a 'little bit sorry but not really' for their role in almost ending the world would be approaching comically pure evil, and I just don't see that from Rufus, and I never did, even in the original game back in FFVII. He's a guy that's good at running shit, and that's what he wants to do, whether it's good, bad, or neutral. I think through the WRO, he sees an opportunity to both run shit, 'be Rufus', and perhaps do a little good for once in his life. Does that have to run mutually exclusive with one another?

I'm just not willing to swallow this whole atonement thing when in universe his motives are not pure and out of universe the whole thing has been cooked up to allow the character a resurrection.

I think someone can seek atonement and not have entirely pure motives at the same time. Out of universe, as far as SE's motivation, I totally agree with you, though.

Of course but, I mean what is that saying really? Sometimes shit gets worse before it gets better right? Nobody would argue that the Empire should have stayed around (although they did have cool ships and uniforms) Although this is getting off onto a wider tangent that I don't really have the time to discuss, I dont feel like anyone would argue that an essentially fascist dictatorship should just be allowed to continue because they make the space freighters run on time

I bring that up to address the earlier argument a few posts ago that more or less read to me 'Why would ANYONE want Shinra back'? Because Shinra made shit work. I'm not even sure comparing it to the Empire is a good example, because at least in the Star Wars universe, the Empire didn't invent civilization.

Shinra more or less did, and is either directly or indirectly responsible for almost everything that anyone enjoys that was made by man (the original game even lampshades this a few times). I'm NOT defending Shinra, but I am just stating how it is, straight up.

I can understand if a few people were lowkey thinking "damn I kinda miss Shinra minus all of the evil shit"

 

[Octo]

Forgive me; I'm sort of projecting on you my universal response for a sentiment I see a lot of; "YOU SEE, RUFUS STILL WANTS POWER AND HE'S AMBITIOUS! HE'S STILL A BAD GUY" I see a lot in the fandom.

no worries

But still, even if that's not what you're saying, I still interpret it differently; Rufus sees himself as a capable manager who's good at what he does, and doesn't want to give it up. You bring up 'clinging to power' as a bad thing, and in the context of what Rufus did and who he was, it is a bit of a black mark, but not entirely.

I think that Rufus good and well knows that the era of the Shinra company and family ruling Gaia is over. But that doesn't mean that he has to live in a sewer, either. I don't blame him for wanting to return to a position he's good at and where he's accustomed. It's what he does with that power that'll define him, and with that being said, I don't get the impression that he's only 'a little bit sorry'.

To me, someone only being a 'little bit sorry but not really' for their role in almost ending the world would be approaching comically pure evil, and I just don't see that from Rufus, and I never did, even in the original game back in FFVII. He's a guy that's good at running shit, and that's what he wants to do, whether it's good, bad, or neutral. I think through the WRO, he sees an opportunity to both run shit, 'be Rufus', and perhaps do a little good for once in his life. Does that have to run mutually exclusive with one another?

Nah I dont think he has to live in a sewer, I would imagine he has a load of personal wealth anyway. As for the rest, he was born into power, so whether that makes him inherently good at running shit - bearing in mind that 'ruling through fear' is like the easiest way of running shit, you dont have to please people you just have to crack skulls and crush dissenters or whatever, so its more out of a sense of entitlement than anything else. In terms of being a benevolent ruler he's an unknown quantity.

I'm just not willing to swallow this whole atonement thing when in universe his motives are not pure and out of universe the whole thing has been cooked up to allow the character a resurrection.

I think someone can seek atonement and not have entirely pure motives at the same time. [/quote] Sure, but I think it crosses a line if it's going to put people in danger.

Out of universe, as far as SE's motivation, I totally agree with you, though.

Yep

Basically FFVII has a lot of good ideas but the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Nah I dont think he has to live in a sewer, I would imagine he has a load of personal wealth anyway. As for the rest, he was born into power, so whether that makes him inherently good at running shit - bearing in mind that 'ruling through fear' is like the easiest way of running shit, you dont have to please people you just have to crack skulls and crush dissenters or whatever, so its more out of a sense of entitlement than anything else. In terms of being a benevolent ruler he's an unknown quantity.

Of course, and it's entirely fair to use his track record as a predictor of future actions, but I also think it's only fair to account the EARTH SHATTERING FORMATIVE EXPERIENCE of seeing the world about to end before your eyes and being partially responsible. Rufus is at a crossroads right now between 'good' and 'bad', and maybe he never goes down the road and just stays at 'rich opportunist', but I don't think that means he's bad by default.

If anything, and I stress again, I believe that someone with Rufus' crimes who DOES get a second chance but ISN'T sorry about it to an appreciable degree probably is evil, and I don't think that's Rufus. While they may never be 'good', I truly believe based on what we've seen that Meteorfall fundamentally changed Rufus.

Or maybe not! More on that below.

Sure, but I think it crosses a line if it's going to put people in danger.

I entirely agree, but the problem with attaching this to Rufus is that we don't know yet. The only results we've seen out of post FFVII Rufus is his funding of WRO, which is a 'good' thing with 'possibly shady' motives. It's entirely possible that in a future Compilation entry, Rufus could go back to his old tricks like a drug, but it's also entirely possible that being partially responsible for bringing the world to its knees sparked some real change in a man that could grow to something more, even if he grows into an old man and dies and never touches heroism.

It absolutely crosses a line if Rufus does harm, but we just don't know yet.

 

[Octo]

But IIRC - and probably Tres will be able to tell me I'm totally wrong - its a while since I saw ACC but doesnt Kadaj attack Cloud because of Rufus or something?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I can understand if a few people were lowkey thinking "damn I kinda miss Shinra minus all of the evil shit"

Yes. You would be surprised how often older people in Africa told me they missed the colonial administration - or rather, some of the more efficient aspects of it. Now of course the colonial administrations were responsible to a greater or lesser degree, directly or indirectly, for a lot of the shit that befell those countries after independence, but they also built their railways, roads, schools, hospitals etc... The situation with Shinra is fairly similar, I think.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

An even more recent example, I just heard this on NPR on Tuesday: Venezuelan President Announces Plan to Rewrite Constitution

This is being done entirely for the purpose of giving more power to the Venezuelan presidential administration -- in a country that has gone from being richer than all its neighbors to an absolute shithole teetering on the edge of complete implosion and revolution. And yet: those who have benefited more from this crumbling administration, even if they're suffering now, are still right there (at a political meeting being held on a basketball court) cheering, doing the wave (I'm not exaggerating) and calling on their fellow citizens to be supportive too.

But IIRC - and probably Tres will be able to tell me I'm totally wrong - its a while since I saw ACC but doesnt Kadaj attack Cloud because of Rufus or something?

Rufus told him that Cloud had Jenova's remains, sure. Difficult to hold that against him, though, considering the consequences for the world if Kadaj lifted that white sheet, that he thought two of his closest/only friends/subordinates (Tseng and Elena) were already dead, and given that Rufus knew Cloud had a better shot at killing Kadaj and his brothers than any of them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

@ above post - often, when a country is in a crisis, people look for a strong leader who seems to have answers, and are often willing to surrender some of their democracy in return for what they see as security.

 

[Clement Rage]

If anything that gives them depth and consistency. It was established pretty early that the Turks have no real personal beef with AVALANCHE.

It also establishes that they're pretty much dicks. First, vacationing in the heartland of a subjugated enemy. Second, bullying and belittling Elena. Third, being extremely insulting and dismissive to a soldier asking them for help. Given the rivalry, he/she wouldn't be asking if help wasn't badly needed, but they're willing to watch colleagues die rather than give up a few hours of vacation time. It comes across as even worse in the context of BC.

Also, Reno does hold a grudge over them making a fool of him in Sector 7.

How do you know their intentions?

If Rufus was sincere in his good intentions, the first thing he would have done would have been to hand over JENOVA's head to Cloud or Reeve and say 'hide this somewhere I can't find it.'

Also this:

Kadaj: You don't seem all that sorry.

Sorry? Why, I've never had this much fun.

(while watching Edge be destroyed, no less.) He straight up says he's not sorry at all, guys. And manoevers things so that Cloud is the primary target of superpowered killers without telling him. That doesn't scream remorse to me.

Rufus told him that Cloud had Jenova's remains, sure. Difficult to hold that against him, though, considering the consequences for the world if Kadaj lifted that white sheet, that he thought two of his closest/only friends/subordinates (Tseng and Elena) were already dead, and given that Rufus knew Cloud had a better shot at killing Kadaj and his brothers than any of them.

Difficult to hold against him? How so? He chose ' send these superpowered killers against my enemies' ahead of 'put it somewhere safer than in my lap', which looks rather a lot like a play for power to me. Without Aeris' intervention, consider that the result would have been the remnants and Cloud all dead, which is a result I think he'd probably have been happy with. If he had sincere intentions, there would have been a warning. Not giving one is inexcusable, no matter how you slice it. He gambled with the fate of the world for his own power. Doesn't look like reform.

As far as Rufus being a skilled manager, he hasn't proven that. He was an actively destabilising force when Shinra was in power (funding AVALANCHE) and Shinra's two big plays under his management, the rocket and the cannon, were the idea of Scarlet and Heidegger.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I guess you can spin anything to look bad if you try. "He says he's not sorry he kept Jenova's remains away from Kadaj, guys. What a villain!" =P

You're also forgetting that Rufus did contact Cloud (through Reno). That's the reason Cloud goes to Healen to begin with.

Speaking of which, why do you think it would have turned out so much better if he had given the box to Cloud at that point? The dude was despondent and uncooperative with the people closest to him at that time, to say nothing of what trying to work with a former enemy would have been like. Tifa had to bless him out just to get him to try rescuing the kids in their care. Oh, and that dragon you mentioned was wrecking Edge? From another box, this time of materia that had been left in Cloud's care -- which he just left laying in plain sight for anyone who might be watching him (like, I don't know, the three guys who had just attacked him) to find.

Not the best showing when it comes to keeping dangerous stuff away from the bad guys.

Maybe Rufus should have at least told him he had the remains. But maybe he would have if their meeting had gone better and he felt like he knew he could count on Cloud. As it was, the location was ultimately kept a secret even from Reno and Rude.

Was that a gamble? Absolutely. You'll have to explain how it was for power, though. Rufus had no intentions of keeping those cells and using them. Hell, he had the scientist who dared even propose such a thing killed in Episode:Shin-Ra, then commented on the matter in The Kids Are Alright: "I am not my father. I will bring an end to it, once and for all."

I'm also curious what you mean by this:

Without Aeris' intervention, consider that the result would have been the remnants and Cloud all dead, which is a result I think he'd probably have been happy with.

How do you figure this would have been the result? Without Aerith, the result would have probably been Cloud dead, Sephiroth revived, and the rest of the world following right behind Cloud. It was thoroughly demonstrated that the Turks didn't have any means of actually killing the SHM, much less Sephiroth himself.
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Meant to reply to this bit from you before, by the way, Octo:

I know Rufus was quite happy to rule through fear prior to meterorfall.

He was, or at least thought he was, and I think that was the purpose behind some of what he went through on a personal level. He found himself the captive of a sadist at one point, and also found himself disgusted by this person. I think he discovered that he wasn't who he thought he was.

He literally goes from talking about ruling through fear to saying (privately, with no one to impress) that they're going to heal the world. That's a stark shift for him to be unchanged.