Buffyverse Discussion (Spoilers)

Lex

Administrator
I've watched it all, it's worth a watch!

Buffy/Angel is the one franchise I sorely miss. The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina almost scratches the itch, but not quite.


waaaah this makes me so nostalgic, can we have a Buffy reunion now please??? :sadpanda:
They did the same thing for Buffy a few years ago? It was EW aswell, had the same format with everyone sitting around discussing the show <3

Sure it's on YouTube somewhere!
 
It lost me at the Fred part. That was quite the incredible stretch IMO. I didn't feel like that concept was used solely to fuel the male characters or not have any impact on the ongoing storylines. It was a highly charged and emotional moment that was vastly different to anything that came before, and gave us this fantastic new character. Sorry, not buying that.

I feel like the writer just wanted to write about Cordelia. Which is fine and RIGHT. There was so much wrong in everything surrounding that. But please, don't stretch things to make a point.
 

Lex

Administrator
I kind of understand where you're coming from but I do think there's a point to be made about them killing off the only remaining female character on the show. I think the way it was handled was fantastic, and Illyria was great - but I also think it's open to criticism in the sense that they turned her into a non-human rather than have a human woman able to survive the fighting. A (female) friend once made a point to me where she was like "yeah it was too much for the girls so they killed them all off" and I don't know if she understood how misogynistic a viewpoint that was.

I don't have a problem with the writing or storytelling of how Fred's death was handled, because it was absolutely gutting in the right way. But I do have an issue with there being no human female main characters left by the time the show ends, particularly from the core cast. If they had brought Cordy back right in season 5 it would be a non-issue.
 

Ergo

Sugar Honey Ice & Tea
AKA
Ergo, V
Gotta say the moment Cordy "left" was the moment angel went to shit.

I'm getting all nostalgic about angel now and really wanna watch the puppet episode again now.
 
I kind of understand where you're coming from but I do think there's a point to be made about them killing off the only remaining female character on the show. I think the way it was handled was fantastic, and Illyria was great - but I also think it's open to criticism in the sense that they turned her into a non-human rather than have a human woman able to survive the fighting. A (female) friend once made a point to me where she was like "yeah it was too much for the girls so they killed them all off" and I don't know if she understood how misogynistic a viewpoint that was.

I don't have a problem with the writing or storytelling of how Fred's death was handled, because it was absolutely gutting in the right way. But I do have an issue with there being no human female main characters left by the time the show ends, particularly from the core cast. If they had brought Cordy back right in season 5 it would be a non-issue.
There was still a female character on the show, she just wasn't human like you mentioned. And Fred, though incredibly smart, would never have survived that final battle. Heck, Gunn and Wesley didn't either (from my poor recollection of the After comic, heck Wes was dying in the final shot). This was too much of a stretch for the article. There was only one other female character on the show, and both the character and the actress was poorly handled in the end, no question, but I'm just not buying this 'Whedon's anti legacy against female characters' bandwagon that a lot of click bait articles want to run with.

Gotta say the moment Cordy "left" was the moment angel went to shit.

I'm getting all nostalgic about angel now and really wanna watch the puppet episode again now.
Losing Cordelia was devastating, but it was the entire Conner storyline and character which ruined it for me. So glad he left lol.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
Gunn was dying and Wes was dead already. If the show had been renewed for another season Amy Acker would still be a regular and we would almost certainly see more Fred, but since it didn't, all these characters (aside from Lorne and Conner) met a violent end at some point.
 

Lex

Administrator
There was still a female character on the show, she just wasn't human like you mentioned. And Fred, though incredibly smart, would never have survived that final battle. Heck, Gunn and Wesley didn't either (from my poor recollection of the After comic, heck Wes was dying in the final shot). This was too much of a stretch for the article. There was only one other female character on the show, and both the character and the actress was poorly handled in the end, no question, but I'm just not buying this 'Whedon's anti legacy against female characters' bandwagon that a lot of click bait articles want to run with.
I don't think this article is an indictment on Joss Whedon, although I will say based on this thread that what happened to Charisma Carpenter specifically doesn't shed a positive light on him.

Like the wider point it is making is that the female characters on the show are essentially disposed of once the "nurture" aspect is seemingly played out (the article says this is about pregnancy which I agree is a weak analogy) but I think the point stands. Cordelia was 100% the "mother" of the group, which is a role that Fred filled to an extent when they wrote Cordelia out. The second Illyria takes over Fred, the show completely loses that vibe in the group dynamic because it just becomes a show about a bunch of angry/ depressed dudes and this ancient god trapped in the guise of their companion playing with their emotions. Don't get me wrong, I love Illyria and will say I like what they did with Fred's character (coming through Illyria and such, humanising it). I love Illyria's effect on the group and the group dynamic. But it came at the cost of any female energy in the core cast on the show, which IMO was to its detriment. It's not to say that Joss or the other showrunners set out to be misogynistic, it's just an acknowledgement that the female characters of the series were done dirty and I personally think they all were. Including Darla.

Illyria could have gone into Gunn or some shit, at least that would have given the dude an actual plot. If we stop to think about "why was it Fred" the answer is not exclusive to but definitely includes the fact that she is female. Which, again, would have been less of an issue with Cordy still in the mix. And I will say that I think the Illyria storyline was more impactful because it was Fred - if it had been another character it might not be so interesting but we'll never know.

Gunn was dying and Wes was dead already. If the show had been renewed for another season Amy Acker would still be a regular and we would almost certainly see more Fred, but since it didn't, all these characters (aside from Lorne and Conner) met a violent end at some point.
It's not really about how much Fred we see as much as it is about the choice that was made to replace her character. I do think that a season 6 could have helped (I remember reading that they were going to bring Fred back more through Illyria in Season 6, I imagine it would have been a plotline about how you can't actually erase a human soul/ consciousness).

I have a particular thing about Fred vs. Illyria because the first time I watched the show through I was so deeply depressed and engrossed that I broke down during that episode and then didn't even realise that Amy Acker was still on the show until fake!Fred popped back up again a couple of eps later (I know, it's mad - I must have been fast forwarding through the opening credits).

My tl;dr is that I think the Illyria storyline was fab but I agree with the wider point the article makes about all the female energy being sucked out of the show. I think it's a mild stretch to say that "they all got pregnant then were disposed of" but I can see where that viewpoint is coming from for sure because that's kinda what happened?
 
I see the points that you are trying to defend the article on, but I simply don't agree with the assessments being made here. When news of Joss Whedon's private life with his wife came out, everyone and their dog suddenly began looking back through his work, cherry picking specific moments that something happened to a female character, and blowing it way out of proportion by highlighting it as a testament and evidence that it 'was there and clear all along'.

Though the article doesn't go that far to spell it out, I feel like it has those vibes with the viewpoint it is trying to push here about the role of women, and their storylines, during the show and an almost insidious culture of disposing of them in a certain way. But I just do not buy this statement, and stand by that it is simply not true, and the writer is tearing down the grander narrative, and circumstances, in order to make a poor point. The character of Fred wasn't done dirty. She had a great arc and Illyria was this amazing new unknown thrown into the mix, which only further portrayed Amy's amazing talents whilst also furthering the larger story and also having a lasting impact on other characters.

Yes, that very specific 'mother' aspect was gone once Fred left, but that's not a testament to some insidious and ongoing aspect to stamp down on women and make it a bro show.

I just don't agree with the article on this point. Everything about Cordelia I 100% agree with. The article should have just been about Cordelia and Charisma and we'd be sound. I'd champion that over and over again. But I'm just not buying this manipulation of the Fred scenario to try and further that point.
 
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