Canon or Not Canon?

[Cat Rage Room]

No, I mean, it's canon in regards it actually happened in regards to their universes. Not just canon in the fact that they wrote it. By your definition, Cloud being in KH is canon to FF7. Or Ehrgeiz. It isn't. Dissidia is.

I think the issue here is that people take fictional characters and universes too seriously, and can't accept when the creators do something like this.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

...no...no...my sefiros-san...theres no way i can accept your beauty fighting alongside a baka gaijin such as kefka...what have you done to my beloved sefiros-san square enix...

 

[Mariketsu]

I voted yes because I feel it IS canon. I have read somewhere that the creators stated more would be revealed of Tidus and the estranged relationship between him and Jecht, moreso than what was revealed in the FFX game originally, mainly to tie up loose ends. I feel they probably did this for some others as well and tbh, they're probably able to use abilities they couldn't before BECAUSE it is another world, i.e. that world probably has less or different rules than their own respective worlds did. Overall, it seems to be canon to me, imho.

~ SoS

 

[Makoeyes987]

I haven't played the game yet so I have no specific reasons to doubt it. But KH is written or at least sanctioned by SE and it's not considered canon, either. At least, it IS considered AU.

Yeah, but Kingdom Hearts isn't a "Final Fantasy" nor does it considerably add characterization to the characters of the original FF1 and backstory regarding its simplistic plot. It's not an AU because it's Final Fantasy and it definitely connects to the original Final Fantasy's storyline.

They can do whatever other stories they want with their own characters, but there is no way I am acknowledging it as part of the continuity of FF7 that Cloud has gone on a rescue mission for Mickey Mouse or that he's stood alongside Zidane and battled Kefka. Or whatever the hell happens in those games. It's not the same story. It's AU.

Again, Kingdom Hearts is KH. They're separate stories. Nomura and Kitase have stated repeatedly that KH and FF aren't the same and the characters are different AU versions of themselves. Dissidia however is an FF installment. It takes place in Final Fantasy, and the characters are the FF characters themselves. Big difference. They call it an FF installment. Not really sure why you're adverse to FF characters meeting other FF characters.

 

[Mitch Connor]

I think Ravynne might mean that its not an AU as in it is more like a what if universe. Such as how Marvel does it all the time with its comic books. They have multiple alternate realities which have the same exact characters in the same setting and all that good stuf, but they are parallel (so to speak) universes.

But i myself really wouldn't consider the events in Dissidia an event that happens somewhere in the time line of the Cloud in FF7 and the compilation

 

[Max Payne]

Except it's not like that at all. And those what if books aren't all their own separate universe, they're just exploring the possibilities of what may have happened had certain events went a different way.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think Ravynne might mean that its not an AU as in it is more like a what if universe. Such as how Marvel does it all the time with its comic books. They have multiple alternate realities which have the same exact characters in the same setting and all that good stuf, but they are parallel (so to speak) universes.

Yeah, those aren't separate realities, those are just different routes in the storyline that are self contained stories. And that's not what Dissidia is at all. No where does it present itself as "what if" or different than what we know. It's an expansion.

But i myself really wouldn't consider the events in Dissidia an event that happens somewhere in the time line of the Cloud in FF7 and the compilation

Can't really happen anywhere in the timeline of FFVII since it doesn't take place in FFVII's world or timeline at all. They were pulled from their FF's and then sent back. It's independent of what their stories were. It's a new story in another world. However, Dissidia's story would take place after FF1's storyline.

 

[Max Payne]

The old versions of the What IF books were supposedly alternate realities viewed a narrating Watcher, but they haven't been that way for a while, hence the "not all of them are alternate realities" comment.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I haven't played the game yet so I have no specific reasons to doubt it. But KH is written or at least sanctioned by SE and it's not considered canon, either. At least, it IS considered AU.

They can do whatever other stories they want with their own characters, but there is no way I am acknowledging it as part of the continuity of FF7 that Cloud has gone on a rescue mission for Mickey Mouse or that he's stood alongside Zidane and battled Kefka. Or whatever the hell happens in those games. It's not the same story. It's AU.

The particular points that he made could just as easily apply if it had been.

True of most fanfiction, but does not prove any fanfiction canon.

Yes, but the major point you're missing is that it's an official work where the pasts and prior stories of all the characters taken into account. While he neglected to mention it, it is a major point in favor.

And "canon" just means that the material was written by the creator(s) of the original. It says nothing of whether or not it is AU.

Actually, Canon in this sense means 'part of the overall work, with relation to the other parts.' It is used more in the sense of biblical canon than, say, composer canon.
And what it really means is that Dissidia can be seen as a valid examination of these characters under these circumstances, even if it does wind up they have no conscious memory of it afterwards, save WoL and Garly.
And Shantotto. Because she's Lina F'in Inverse in FF11 form.
And I don't just say that halfassed. Megumi Hayashibara was her voice in JP, and I doubt they weren't aware of Shantotto's similarities when they made they decided to cast Lina Inverse's voice actress for her.

 

[looneymoon]

I don't think we can really take Dissidia as an alternate universe because... it's not. The characters from Dissida are the characters from the Final Fantasy games, put into a different environment. If anything, you can MAYBE say that all the FF worlds are micro-universes located within the grander Final Fantasy universe. Each world doesn't necessarily affect eachother, but they do co-exist within the same reality... if that makes sense. I can't say that last statement is correct as I haven't finished all of Dissidia yet

The difference with Kingdom Hearts is that it's a different reality altogether. The Kingdom Hearts universe has nothing to do with the Final Fantasy universe, and the characters that do appear in KH are simply alternate versions of their FF counterparts.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The Dissidia in which you find yourself, that is reality.
The Final Fantasy you think you remember playing - that is the illusion.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You know, there's something I just found that I'd like to post regarding its canon status and entry as an FF title. It's from the official Kitase blog on Dissidia on 1-UP which can be found here.

DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY is finally available in North America! I hope everyone is enjoying it so far. This is Yoshinori Kitase, Producer on this title.

I had been involved with the FINAL FANTASY series for several years, and before I knew it I somehow became a part of DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY as well! (laugh) When I found out that the young staff members originally from the KINGDOM HEARTS team were making this game, I thought it sounded like a really fun project.

Dissidia means “conflict” or “disagreement” in Latin.

“Gaiden”(side story or spin-off) made the game feel too distant, and we wanted to set the right tone for DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY; it isn’t a numbered title, but has just as much spirit as a main story.

Then, this is what Arakawa, the director said...

As a rule we were extremely careful to treat DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY as a genuine entry in the FINAL FANTASY series. FINAL FANTASY is an RPG series, and we were very aware that transitioning to the action genre would be a risk for the development team and fans alike. But at the same time, being the team that brought the action in KINGDOM HEARTS II to life, they were very eager to take on the challenge. As mentioned above, this game was developed by a very young team; so many staff members were big fans of the FINAL FANTASY series and had grown up playing the games. I think everyone had a lot of fun making DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY, since they were able to bring all of their gaming experience to life.

I don't know how much more clearer it has to be made that Dissidia is not only canon, but canon in terms of a true, Final Fantasy installment. Not a gaiden, spin off, "what if", etc.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

At this point one is left wondering what the term 'canon' actually means. I thought it meant the entirety of the story: the world and the rules by which it operates, the characters, their personalities and back stories, and the plot in all its intricate twists and turns. If this is the correct interpretation, then Dissidia somehow has to fit itself into the bigger story, and not just the story of FFVII but ALL the stories - it has to have a location in time and space that synchronises with the overall development of the 'Endless Crisis'. If it does this (I haven't played it) then I guess I would call it 'canon'.

Who gets to decide what canon is and isn't, anyway?

 

[Makoeyes987]

At this point one is left wondering what the term 'canon' actually means. I thought it meant the entirety of the story: the world and the rules by which it operates, the characters, their personalities and back stories, and the plot in all its intricate twists and turns. If this is the correct interpretation, then Dissidia somehow has to fit itself into the bigger story, and not just the story of FFVII but ALL the stories - it has to have a location in time and space that synchronises with the overall development of the 'Endless Crisis'. If it does this (I haven't played it) then I guess I would call it 'canon'.

Who gets to decide what canon is and isn't, anyway?

Canon has always meant, a body of material that is considered to be genuine or official, that can be directly referenced as, or as if it were, material produced by the original author or creator of a series. It has to have continuity and cohesion with the rest of the material and be apart of the franchise.

And that's what Dissidia has. With every FF.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

it has to have a location in time and space that synchronises with the overall development of the 'Endless Crisis'. If it does this (I haven't played it) then I guess I would call it 'canon'.

The word you're looking for is continuity, and it's what I have a problem with here. Not that FF7 has had flawless continuity, but at exactly what point in time within the FF7 continuity did Cloud and Sephiroth get whisked off to some other world in which all the other FF heroes and villains also exist? Did they get placed back immediately into the FF7 timeline at the same moment at which they left—as in the Back to the Future analogy that someone else mentioned—with no memory whatsoever of the events that took place within Dissidia? Only under these circumstances can I find myself accepting Dissidia as part of the FF7 continuity, and in that case it wouldn't even matter what happened in Dissidia because it had no effect on the behavior of Cloud or Sephiroth afterward. And I have to judge the decision to attempt to include AU—it has to have taken place in an "alternate universe" in the literal sense even if Cloud and Sephiroth were taken to an alternate universe within the FF7 continuity, because the other FF characters and worlds don't exist in the same universe as one another, with exceptions like FF7/12—as an actual plot device as nothing less than stupid.

Who gets to decide what canon is and isn't, anyway?

Typically, the author/creator. Though there are philosophies such as the author/creator's opinion doesn't count and even fanfiction can be canon.

And on the note of fanfiction:

Yes, but the major point you're missing is that it's an official work where the pasts and prior stories of all the characters taken into account. While he neglected to mention it, it is a major point in favor.

The bolded text in itself does not define something as official because I could very easily write a fanfiction in which I take into account the pasts and prior stories of all included characters. In fact any fanfiction that does not do that is not good fanfiction.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The word you're looking for is continuity, and it's what I have a problem with here. Not that FF7 has had flawless continuity, but at exactly what point in time within the FF7 continuity did Cloud and Sephiroth get whisked off to some other world in which all the other FF heroes and villains also exist?

Whenever Chaos decided, "Fuck this shit, I'm returning everything to discord and shattering FFVII's world and taking Sephiroth out of it to fight for me" and Cosmos decided, "Well shit, if he's gonna take Sephiroth, I might as well get Cloud!"

Time and space do not matter to gods. They fashion reality and existence. There is no exact point in time in FFVII's timeline that it happened because in Dissidia, FFVII's entire universe was annihilate and consumed by discord. All that remained of its existence was the Planet's Core. All we know is that it was at some point after FFVII, and before AC.

Did they get placed back immediately into the FF7 timeline at the same moment at which they left—as in the Back to the Future analogy that someone else mentioned—with no memory whatsoever of the events that took place within Dissidia? Only under these circumstances can I find myself accepting Dissidia as part of the FF7 continuity, and in that case it wouldn't even matter what happened in Dissidia because it had no effect on the behavior of Cloud or Sephiroth afterward.

That's exactly what happened. That's what Dissidia's storyline and ending is all about. When Chaos dies, the discord is gone, and everything is reverted back to normal, hence the crystals return each character back to the world. What they remember or not is up to interpretation.

And I have to judge the decision to attempt to include AU—it has to have taken place in an "alternate universe" in the literal sense even if Cloud and Sephiroth were taken to an alternate universe within the FF7 continuity, because the other FF characters and worlds don't exist in the same universe as one another, with exceptions like FF7/12—as an actual plot device as nothing less than stupid.

Each Final Fantasy takes place in separate universe and dimension. However, each world of Final Fantasy is connected by the Interdimensional Rift from FFV. That's the tunnel that connects them. Yeah, Dissidia is an "alternate universe" from FFVII's universe. But the characters are from their own, originating worlds and dimensions. There's nothing stating that these are anything but the true-blue FF characters. Kitase even stated that he didn't want this title to be considered a gaiden or spin-off at all, for Christ's sake. He's literally saying its as official and true as it gets.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Once again, refer to the example I posted before, its the same as any other set omnipotent (keyword, omniscient) deities taking the warriors of their choosing from multiple universes and putting them together in a cosmic slap fight and making sure they don't remember it afterwards. Silly? Sure, I think so. Unforgivably stupid? Nah, not so much. Ravynne, like I said before, you're taking it entirely too seriously. Fictional universes far older and more concrete than the FF universe(s) has done this before.

 

[Alex Strife]

When you finish FFI, the epilogue states that nobody knows that the Warriors of Light did, because destroying the Cycle meant that the Cycle never existed.

SO, in Dissidia the Cycle gets destroyed. It doesn't matter if it's canon or not. Dissidia never existed. Wait, what's Dissida?

 

[Makoeyes987]

When you finish FFI, the epilogue states that nobody knows that the Warriors of Light did, because destroying the Cycle meant that the Cycle never existed.

SO, in Dissidia the Cycle gets destroyed. It doesn't matter if it's canon or not. Dissidia never existed. Wait, what's Dissida?

Yeah, except the cycle really didn't break, now did it? That's the whole funny thing about a time loop enacted by a god.

 

[Alex Strife]

Damned secret epilogue scene!

 

[Ryushikaze]

And on the note of fanfiction:


The bolded text in itself does not define something as official because I could very easily write a fanfiction in which I take into account the pasts and prior stories of all included characters. In fact any fanfiction that does not do that is not good fanfiction.

...
...
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Rav. I am going to say this once. DO -NOT- TAKE WORDS IN A CLAUSE OUT OF THE CLAUSE AND ACT LIKE THEY ARE THE WHOLE OF IT.

When you neglect to include the key words 'an official work ' THEN YES, it's not distinguished from fucking fanfiction. BUT YOU SEE, THE KEY WORDS 'an official work' ARE THERE and do distinguish it from fanfiction.

Capische?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I would think that if this took place, it took place before World of Ruin, because Kefka's powers are clearly not Godlike. So this makes me think this takes place a bit before FF6.

Fanfiction idea: this was some sort of training simulation Gestahl designed for Terra and Kefka, Terra is still in her world with a Slave Crown.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I would think that if this took place, it took place before World of Ruin, because Kefka's powers are clearly not Godlike. So this makes me think this takes place a bit before FF6.

Fanfiction idea: this was some sort of training simulation Gestahl designed for Terra and Kefka, Terra is still in her world with a Slave Crown.

Did you complete FFVI? Kefka's entire mind set and EX Appearance is based off of how he was at the final battle. Most of what he says and does is all based on how he was during the final battle.

The "Light of Destruction" was his own special way of smiting the planet when he became the God of Magic in FFVI.

 

[Dark and Divine]

"Light of Destruction"?

What happened to "Light of Judgement"?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I've watched too much YGO GX

Yes, it's Light of Judgment. My mistake.