Character Battle QF1: Cloud vs Celes

[Roger]

I'm sorry to but in, but I just thought to add my two cents if you don't mind.

Not at all.

I read that scene quite differently to be honest. He doesn't seem to be just shifting through his memories because then I doubt they'd be as focused as they are. He's thinking of what's important to him and, yes, I'd have expected Zack to make the list at the very least.

Well yeah, off course. Friggin' Reno made the list.

I don't think though that just because he gets an exchange with Zack in that sequence means that Zack is all that's important to him because the others wouldn't have been there then. Those didn't seem to be implied to be random flashes, but a response to Sephiroth's question. But, not to undermine the issue, Zack is also important to Cloud and always will be. That's not something that I'd have liked to see sidelined.

I thought Cloud said Zack because Zack started talking to him, rather than Cloud answering Sephiroth's question.

Look, I know that the writers aren't actually saying Zack's most important to Cloud. But having Cloud's mind go to Zack for help as a response to Sephiroth making him think of what is most important still sends a message, and heavily takes away the message the original scene was sending, being chopped into two and a few minutes of dialogue being put in between and all. The scene was a good momwent for Cloud, they didnt need to go to extremes to fix and make it about Zack.

 

[penandpaper]

Not at all.

Thank you.

Look, I know that the writers aren't actually saying Zack's most important to Cloud. But having Cloud's mind go to Zack for help as a response to Sephiroth making him think of what is most important still sends a message, and heavily takes away the message the original scene was sending, being chopped into two and a few minutes of dialogue being put in between and all.

This we may have to agree to disagree on because I didn't think that it did take away from the meaning of the scene and I liked what it added, but that really doesn't mean anything. It's no more then my opinion after all and, let's be honest, nobody cares about my opinion.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts on the matter, so thank you.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Voted for Cloud, because he's Cloud ffs. Do I need a better reason?

Celes is awesome though and I blame no one who has voted for her.

 

[Dana Scully]

sadly i didn't played VI (

) so i vote for the cloud

Not to pick on you in particular 4nn4, but I have a feeling that this will be the case with pretty much every poll putting an ff7 character against someone from another game.

 

[wander]

Well yeah, the site is called The Lifestream rather than The Final Fantasy Franchise Fraternity.
[wow, how cool does that sound?]

If you want a valid contest, stipulate that people who don't know both characters probably shouldn't vote.

And ban 4nn4-chan. An example must be made.

 

[Flintlock]

Not to pick on you in particular 4nn4, but I have a feeling that this will be the case with pretty much every poll putting an ff7 character against someone from another game.

Seems that way, unfortunately. At least we have three match-ups to look forward to: Kain vs Vivi (quarter-final), Aerith vs Tifa (possible semi-final) and Cloud vs Aerith/Tifa (possible final).

If you want a valid contest, stipulate that people who don't know both characters probably shouldn't vote.

That would be completely unenforceable. If someone wants to abstain from voting because they don't know both, then they can, but they shouldn't feel obliged to.

 

[wander]

That would be completely unenforceable. If someone wants to abstain from voting because they don't know both, then they can, but they shouldn't feel obliged to.

If you want a valid contest, stipulate that people who don't know both characters probably shouldn't vote.

probably shouldn't vote

probably shouldn't

and who gives a shit anyway, it's just a game character. I was just sayin don't be complainin when you don't discourage that sort of thing.

 

[Ghost X]

Now now, I played FFVI, and still voted for Cloud. It is completely possible for this scenario to occur .

 

[ForceStealer]

Look, I know that the writers aren't actually saying Zack's most important to Cloud. But having Cloud's mind go to Zack for help as a response to Sephiroth making him think of what is most important still sends a message, and heavily takes away the message the original scene was sending, being chopped into two and a few minutes of dialogue being put in between and all. The scene was a good momwent for Cloud, they didnt need to go to extremes to fix and make it about Zack.

But I don't know think Cloud's mind went to Zack, I think Zack came to Cloud.

 

[Roger]

But I don't know think Cloud's mind went to Zack, I think Zack came to Cloud.

Chicken or the egg.

 

[ForceStealer]

Not really, how could Cloud just summon Zack's spirit by thinking of him? If he could do that wouldn't he just spend all his time chattin it up with Aerith? Did he summon them at the end of the movie too? No, they came to him.

 

[Roger]

Not really, how could Cloud just summon Zack's spirit by thinking of him? If he could do that wouldn't he just spend all his time chattin it up with Aerith? Did he summon them at the end of the movie too? No, they came to him.

Aerith got herself involved a while ago, she only decided to appear to Cloud when Cloud needed her, her specifically, the most. The last thing that Cloud did before getting on his motorbike was have an argument over not being able to let ago of his memories and not being capable of saving. That wasn't a coincidence. Same thing happened with Zack.

 

[Mantichorus]

Celes.

Reason A: I like underdogs.

Seriously though, let's start with the Opera scene. Better, pulling the double headed coin trick years before we'd even heard of Dante Sparda.

...Eh, I just have an embracing fondness for the VI cast, and they don't get enough love.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Celes deserves a lot better than to be losing by seven votes

 

[ForceStealer]

Now...I love Celes and I think the Opera scene is really impressive and the story-within-a-story-within-a-story element to it is a lot of fun.

That said, and I realize this is gonna be unpopular, does it really do anything for her character? The double-headed coin trick that Manti brings up, yeah, that's cool and I think says a lot more for her character. Also her time on the island with Cid in the world of Ruin says a LOT about her character.
But what does the Opera do? It's more fun than anything, it's a flashy way to introduce Setzer and some laughs involving Ultros.

I don't mean to diminish the opera, it is beautiful and all that...but apart from the fact that Celes has to sing...how much does it really relate to her?

 

[AvecAloes]

I have to agree with Force here. Having recently played through the opera scene again, I can say that I thought it was neat, but honestly when considering who to vote for in this pole, the opera didn't come up at all as a reason to vote for Celes. Many other elements did, but I personally didn't feel the opera really added to Celes, other than maybe to say that she can, I dunno, sing. Like Force said, I'm sure this is a crazy unpopular opinion, but...please don't hate!

 

[Roger]

other than maybe to say that she can, I dunno, sing.

Hey, hey! We also found out that she cleans up nicely in a white dress!

 

[Zee]

The only real mark I have against him is how Advent Children Complete changed his scene before defeating Sephiroth.

Sephiroth: Tell me what you cherish most.
Cloud: There isn't a thing I don't cherish Zack and as Zack's living legacy, there isn't a thing I don't cherish.

did they really do this

wow what an incredibly fucking stupid change

Not only purpose, but in a scene that was about everyone, they blatnatly changed in to Cloud drawing strength from Zack's presence.

yeah in a movie about how everyone has basically become cloud's family and the line being about how he doesn't value anyone over anyone else just

wow no fuck you SE

 

[Tifabelle]

Zee, don't listen to it. They did no such thing.

 

[Zee]

ok good

i have never seen ACC but it's sad that i don't put these things past SE anymore


anyway voting cloud because i am attracted to characters with mental issues

 

[Lord Noctis]

CLoud, all the way. Good though CEles may be she is not on CLoud's level for me.

One of FFVIIs best elemnts was strnegth of CLoud's story. Every aspect of his story worked together perfectly to create a deep and interesting character who despite his flaws and weaknesses was to do things nobody else could.

All the revelations throughout disc 2 leave you questioning everything about him, and then shows you the truth in one of the most pwoerful sequences of any FF.

In the end we travel with CLoud throughout most of his life. From his childhood all the way to the present. We've been with him at his weakest and strongest, seen him cry and seen him smile.

Celes is great, one the best characters in FF. But imo CLoud is just better.

 

[Roger]

Zee, don't listen to it. They did no such thing.

I was paraphrasing a little, but just a tiny little.

Sephiroth: Tell me what you cherish most, give the pleasure of taking it away away.
*Cloud shifts through his memories. Screen goes white*
Cloud: Zack.
*Zack & Cloud conversation.*
Cloud: I AM [Zack's] living legacy! I pity you, blabla...

I mean everyone here already watched Advent Children normal, so already know the line it isn't suppose to be taken as him speaking in specific capacity of Zack's legacy when he tells Sephiroth what he cherises but come on, you can't put a random outtawhere Zack appearance between the question "what do you care about most" and the answer and pretend it doesn't change anything.

 

[Celes Chere]

In response to how the whole Opera thing fits with Celes? I'm always love the scene, and the song. So I know all of the lyrics and I always gathered something from. I always felt like this was the romantic side of her, the more sensitive side, a part of her that she keeps hidden from view most of the time. I feel like the words were meant to directly relate to her and Locke... but that could just be me.

I mean I could be reading way too far into this, but the words say that Maria is always waiting - that someone came into her life and gently touched her heart, and went far away... and that's exactly what Locke did during a portion of the game. So yeah ^^;
Especially if you watch the ending scene, it shows Celes in Maria's dress and as she is holding Locke's bandanna staring off into the distance she is back to the normal looking Celes. Always took that to mean two sides of the same coin.

 

[ForceStealer]

I think the words apply more to Locke than they do to Celes. She's not deciding between lovers, he's the one trying to move on from his last one. But I'm not sure it was really supposed to apply to either of them, and Celes kind of got thrown into it, I never got that it was her sensitive side. I think that comes out more on the Solitary Island.

And minato, Cloud says "Zack" AFTER Zack speaks, he's responding to Zack's appearence and speech. He doesn't say "zack" and then Zack shows up and gives him his pep talk. Also, him saying "I am your living legacy" is a response to Zack's question if he remembered. It's part of their conversation, he doesn't say it aloud to Sephiroth. Zack showed up because Cloud was about to be killed, not necause of Sepiroth's question.

 

[Roger]

And minato, Cloud says "Zack" AFTER Zack speaks, he's responding to Zack's appearence and speech. He doesn't say "zack" and then Zack shows up and gives him his pep talk. Also, him saying "I am your living legacy" is a response to Zack's question if he remembered. It's part of their conversation, he doesn't say it aloud to Sephiroth.

It's the fact that this is where he draws strength from instead is my problem. Don't matter if Sephiroth actually heard him.

Zack showed up because Cloud was about to be killed, not necause of Sepiroth's question.

Where the hell were you during all my "Sephiroth was too looking to kill" debates? Never heard this brought up before.

And yeah, not because of Sephiroth's question. Unlike in AC, reminding Cloud of the things he cherishes wasn't enough to get him to save himself in ACC. He needed Zack.