City-wide Great Gospel?

[robotwarui]

In the FFVII:ACC plot analysis and FAQ, Squall_of_Seed says:

Once Sephiroth was out of the picture, Aerith unleashed the city-
wide Great Gospel seen at the end of the film.

City-wide?

What about Wutai or the rest of the world? What happened to them?

In OTWTAS: Case of Yuffie, there are people in Wutai with the geostigma.
Also when Cloud's phone is sinking in the water, one of the messages is from Yuffie where she says (I'm paraphrasing): strange thing, a lot of kids in Wutai got sick...

What really happened?

 

[Tifabelle]

People in Dirge of Cerberus still had geostigma. We're particularly shown Kalm which is the next town over. I imagine they would have to travel to Midgar to be healed. Or have the water taken to them. Which Yuffie is certainly capable of doing.

 

[robotwarui]

People in Dirge of Cerberus still had geostigma. We're particularly shown Kalm which is the next town over. I imagine they would have to travel to Midgar to be healed. Or have the water taken to them. Which Yuffie is certainly capable of doing.

Thank you,
I thought that might be the case.
I didn't know all the details from DoC.

 

[ForceStealer]

Actually, that's not true. No one had geostigma anymore because Sephiroth's will (which caused Jenova cells to become malicious) was gone. What DG's helmets point out are people with Jenova cells. I know it says Geostigma - and those people definitely HAD Geostigma, they might even still carry the marks, but it would no longer be affecting them.

 

[Tifabelle]

?? But even after Sephiroth's will was gone, people still had geostigma. Like Denzel. Until they were healed by the water.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well the mark was still there, but it wouldn't have caused him pain or pussed up anymore and would probably eventually heal. It was Sephiroth causing Jenova cells to attack the body (after all, people had Jenova cells in them for some time before this started). So once he was dead, those cells would stop attacking.

 

[robotwarui]

Actually, that's not true. No one had geostigma anymore because Sephiroth's will (which caused Jenova cells to become malicious) was gone. What DG's helmets point out are people with Jenova cells. I know it says Geostigma - and those people definitely HAD Geostigma, they might even still carry the marks, but it would no longer be affecting them.

Would that mean that
since the lack of Sephiroth's will killed the cause,
that the Great Gospel rainwater
really only took away the icky leftover from the symptoms?

Like the rainwater was just for cosmetics?

Sorry to be annoying but I don't know or remember much from Dirge of Cerebus.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well the explanation for that part has been cause for debate around here. But I thought - and I think its the consensus is that Great Gospel rainwater actually purges the Jenova cells from your body - therefore you wouldn't have the disease with or without Sephiroth's will. AND yes it gets rid of the marks as well of course.

And you're not being annoying

 

[robotwarui]

Well the explanation for that part has been cause for debate around here. But I thought - and I think its the consensus is that Great Gospel rainwater actually purges the Jenova cells from your body - therefore you wouldn't have the disease with or without Sephiroth's will. AND yes it gets rid of the marks as well of course.

And you're not being annoying

1. That makes sense. I like that.

2. Thanks. I forgot, this is what forums are for

 

[DrakeClawfang]

What about Wutai or the rest of the world? What happened to them?

Wutai in particular, Aerith lets the bastards rot. Any nation that can produce a creature like Yuffie must be eradicated.

 

[Sigbru]

Well the explanation for that part has been cause for debate around here. But I thought - and I think its the consensus is that Great Gospel rainwater actually purges the Jenova cells from your body - therefore you wouldn't have the disease with or without Sephiroth's will. AND yes it gets rid of the marks as well of course.

Wouldn't that make Cloud lose his SOLDIER super strength and stuff?


I like to think Reeve took monopoly on Aerith's miracle water and began to sell it to other towns for absurd prices

 

[Ryushikaze]

It would only make him lose his strength if the Jenova are actively involved in keeping him uber, which is unlikely.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think its the consensus is that Great Gospel rainwater actually purges the Jenova cells from your body

Wouldn't that make Cloud lose his SOLDIER super strength and stuff?

Short Answer: No, it wouldn't

Long Answer:
Jenova's most important ability (to the Shin-Ra scientists) is her ability to make "copies" of herself out of living things by "coping" parts of her DNA over their DNA. This is done with her cells (J-cells). Sometime back in the past she looses the ability to do this. (I personally think it's when she was sealed by the Cetra.) It appears that J-cells are still able to overwrite DNA when they are mixed with mako, but Jenova is not controlling them. Instead, J-cells do this because it is what they are programed to do.

This is essentially what happened with the S Project, G Project, and the SOLDIER organization; the J-cells overwrote people's normal DNA to make mutated human cells. It is the mutations, rather than the J-cells that give Angeal and Genesis their own "copying" abilities and give Sephiroth and the rest of SOLDIER their physical prowess. It goes without saying that the mako also increases their raw abilities.

There is a large amount of evidence that the more J-cells and mako a person is exposed to, the more of their human DNA is overwritten with Jenova's DNA. This would explain why Sephiroth and Cloud are at a much higher level then the rest of SOLDIER. They have the most J-cells and the most mako exposure.

Normally, J-cells don't do more than overwrite DNA because Jenova herself can not control them. Without someone's will behind them, they are neutral. Once the Nibelheim Incedent takes place, this is not the case. Sometime between then and the start of FFVII, Sephiroth takes control of both his mutated human cells (S-cells) and the J-cells. For just about all SOLDIERs, except Cloud, this is not a big deal because (comparatively) they have hardly any J-cells for him to control them with. They also don't have amnesia. Cloud, on the other hand, has J-cell amounts that are in the same league as Sephiroth's and he has a large amount of S-cells as well. He also has amnesia that Sephiroth is all too willing to use to his own advantage. All of this is why Sephiroth can control Cloud in FFVII.

As it has been stated, Geostigma occurs when the body overextends itself because it is fighting off J-cells. It is significant that the way to contract Geostigma is to get a dose of a J-cells/mako mixture. This sets up the whole J-cells overwriting human DNA thing again, except this time, Sephiroth has control over how the human DNA is overwritten. There is also a lot less mako involved, but that might/might not be significant.

All that said, what Aerith is doing is getting rid of the J-cells. What she cannot get rid of is all the Jenova DNA the J-cells have "copied over" the human DNA. It is also highly unlikely she got rid of Clouds S-cells because those are really mutated human cells. In other words, at the end of ACC, Cloud does not have any J-cells in him, but he does have all the traits the J-cells copied over into his own cells as well as any traits he gets from the S-cells.

 

[Dashell]

Wutai in particular, Aerith lets the bastards rot. Any nation that can produce a creature like Yuffie must be eradicated.

Don't make me kill you.

 

[ForceStealer]

I had always guessed that it was the Mako shower that improved your abilities (logically it should make you better at magic, for instance) and Jenova, for the most part, gave you the hard-as-shit-to-kill quality. But it was just that, a guess.

Regardless, its much to Cloud's credit for still being able to beat Sephiroth without the aid of Jenova cells. Of course, he's been exposed to more Mako throughout his life than a freaking Reactor.

 

[Tifabelle]

Hmm. I think that what Obisidian wrote makes a lot of sense and seems to be correct.

The only thing that may be wrong is what you said, Force. SOLDIER is enhanced with mako. I didn't think they had any J cells injected into them. Only Seph, Gen, & Angeal were exceptions to this. Cloud only had J & S cells as a result of being Hojo's experiment. So Zack started with only mako enhancements. And because of his mako enhancements was more immune to the S & J cell problems?

Or do I have that wrong? I'm trying to find those notes you can read in Crisis Core after Zack breaks out but I can't find them. iirc they said why Zack was immune to the experiments.


EDIT: Alright I found them. But all Zack's says is that he had "Strong tolerance to Jenova cells due to SOLDIER conditioning".

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@ForceStealer--The way I see it, mako is the source of all life on the Planet. Therefore it makes you stronger in body, magic ect. It also does not discriminate who it gives this life to; it just does, that's its nature. I think this includes Jenova as well because the Cetra seal her within rock where she can't get to the Lifestream.

Most of the SOLDIER attributes could be attributed to both mako and J-cells and the two probably work together to give them those abilities. The exception, of course, is Angeal and Genesis' copy ability with G-cells, Sephiroth's ability to call a reunion of those with S-cells and all three of their wings. Those can only come from J-cells.

@Tifabelle--SOLDIERs are both enhanced mako and injected with J-cells. It's right in the OG after Tifa gets Cloud's real memories back.

Cloud
I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER.
Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult.
It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER.
You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy.
Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......
For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER.
It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion.

From what I can tell, normal SOLDIERs, even 1st Classes, haven't been exposed to anywhere near the amount of mako and J-cells Cloud and Sephiroth have.

I forget where it says this in the game exactly, but the reason why Zack was not affected by the S-cells and J-cells Hojo exposes him to is because of the initial J-cells he got when he first became a SOLDIER. Oh the irony...

EDIT: it^^ should read "the initial mako he was exposed to when he first because a SOLDIER."

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I thought it would be interesting to throw into the discussion here the description from Case of Shinra of how Rufus contracted Geostigma. Trapped, with five other people, in an underground cave by yet another greedy and ambitious ex-Shinra doctor, he tries to organise an escape when the caves flood. All the other people have Geostigma, but he clearly does not, yet. They're all floating in the water when this happens:

"He felt as if someone had called out to him but there was no one around that could have had the strength left to do so. He looked around the water, his attention heightened and thought he saw something moving. A black shape slowly made its way towards Rufus. He couldn't make out whether it was the black ooze coming from the patients.
The shape moved as if it was alive. Frightened, Rufus started to splash the water in an effort to force it away. The waves Rufus created had no effect on it and it closed in. Soon, he found his white suit dyed in black. It was so dirty it could no longer be described as white but he had kept it on knowing that he will need it when he managed to escape. He looked at his sleeve which was now dyed in black and thought, This is the end.
The black ooze crept its way up Rufus' neck towards his face. He knew it was trying to get into his mouth but he held it shut firmly. It tried his nose next. He covered his nose with his hand. He wasn't going to be able to breathe now but he would rather suffocate than let the ooze win. However, the ooze soon made its way into his ears and with a cry, Rufus lost consciousness."

from Xcomp's translation.

 

[Masamune]

I thought it would be interesting to throw into the discussion here the description from Case of Shinra of how Rufus contracted Geostigma. Trapped, with five other people, in an underground cave by yet another greedy and ambitious ex-Shinra doctor, he tries to organise an escape when the caves flood. All the other people have Geostigma, but he clearly does not, yet. They're all floating in the water when this happens:

"He felt as if someone had called out to him but there was no one around that could have had the strength left to do so. He looked around the water, his attention heightened and thought he saw something moving. A black shape slowly made its way towards Rufus. He couldn't make out whether it was the black ooze coming from the patients.
The shape moved as if it was alive. Frightened, Rufus started to splash the water in an effort to force it away. The waves Rufus created had no effect on it and it closed in. Soon, he found his white suit dyed in black. It was so dirty it could no longer be described as white but he had kept it on knowing that he will need it when he managed to escape. He looked at his sleeve which was now dyed in black and thought, This is the end.
The black ooze crept its way up Rufus' neck towards his face. He knew it was trying to get into his mouth but he held it shut firmly. It tried his nose next. He covered his nose with his hand. He wasn't going to be able to breathe now but he would rather suffocate than let the ooze win. However, the ooze soon made its way into his ears and with a cry, Rufus lost consciousness."

from Xcomp's translation.

Laaaame.

He should have originally had Jenova cells. Hence his miraculous survival.
(and presence at the Reunion )

 

[ForceStealer]

I forget where it says this in the game exactly, but the reason why Zack was not affected by the S-cells and J-cells Hojo exposes him to is because of the initial J-cells he got when he first became a SOLDIER. Oh the irony...

I don't think he was unaffected BECAUSE of his Jenova cells, but rather because he's headstrong enough not allow his mind to become muddled. Hojo should have known that when he was able to handle his first dose, a second dose wouoldn't do anything. It was more stupidity on Hojo's part.

Also, and I know you know this, I'm just clarifying, the reason Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal are different is because of the way they all received their Jenova cells - in utero. Jenova cells literally developed with them and became much more a part of them than in the case of SOLDIERs or the Sephiroth Copy Project in which Jenova cells were merely injected into the bloodstream.

 

[Octo]

The black ooze crept its way up Rufus' neck towards his face. He knew it was trying to get into his mouth but he held it shut firmly. It tried his nose next. He covered his nose with his hand. He wasn't going to be able to breathe now but he would rather suffocate than let the ooze win. However, the ooze soon made its way into his ears and with a cry, Rufus lost consciousness."

from Xcomp's translation.

His ear eh?......well, it could have been worse, knowing how much the Japanese like tentacles....

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@ForceStealer--My bad, it should be mako in that paragraph, not J-cells as to why Zack did not have amnesia via mako poisoning.

About Sephiroth, Angeal, and Genesis' J-cells. It's a little more complicated then that. According to Hollader:

Jenova cells were injected into that woman Gillian. Her cells [G-cells] were then directly injected into the fetus known as Genesis. But Genesis was a failure---I would never accept something like that. Although Angeal---You received her cells directly. You are perfect.

I took this to mean that Genesis did not get any J-cells or mako until he made SOLDIER. Angeal inherited G-cells and some J-cells from Gillian, but unlike Sephiroth's case, Hollader wasn't giving him more than he would inherit naturally. He wouldn't get the bulk of his J-cells until he made SOLDIER. In Sephroth's case, Hojo was injecting him with mako and J-cells the entire time Lucrecia was pregnant with him. But yeah, all three of them have been living with Jenova's DNA in them for their entire lives, just different DNA.

@LicoriceAllsorts--I thought the black water was like the black water Kadaj make in ACC only instead of Kadaj's will that turned the water black, it was Sephiroth's will. Another explanation is that the cave could be like Mideel and there is a place the Lifestream comes out to the surface underwater. Only in this case, it is Sphiroth's tainted Lifestream.

 

[ForceStealer]

I never got the impression that Genesis received Jenova cells again later. Just that both he and Angeal received their cells "second-hand" if you will, which led to the degradation.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think they did though. It's been stated that when people are accepted into SOLDIER they are exposed to both mako and J-cells. If Genesis and Angeal were not considered failures (not showing Jenova-like traits), Shin-Ra might not have wanted to mess with them. Since they are considered failures Shin-Ra gave them mako and J-cells like everybody else. It was only after they both started doing things, like sprouting wings, that Shin-Ra put 2 and 2 together and realized that the G-cells actually did do something to them.

 

[Tifabelle]

Also, and I know you know this, I'm just clarifying, the reason Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal are different is because of the way they all received their Jenova cells - in utero. Jenova cells literally developed with them and became much more a part of them than in the case of SOLDIERs or the Sephiroth Copy Project in which Jenova cells were merely injected into the bloodstream.

Yes I was aware of all that. So WTF am I talking about? I don't even freakin' know anymore.

I've gotten lost in this conversation. SOLDIER are enhanced with mako & J cells. Check. Now I don't understand all this business of Aerith's rain getting rid of J cells but not the DNA being changed? I'm confused.

As far as Genesis & Angeal being considered failures, that wouldn't be until degredation started, right? So that would be around the time of Crisis Core. So there wouldn't be a need to inject them further. Unless something else made them failures.