City-wide Great Gospel?

[ForceStealer]

Aeris didn't die with any blood either, remember. But I would assume Lucrecia tried hard enough that would kill a normal person, it didn't work, and so she gave up. Given that Gillian was actually involved in the Jenova Project, maybe she knew some other way.

After seeing Sephiroth's success, Hojo initiates SOLDIER whereby members are showered with mako and injected with Jenova cells?

Yes.

Genesis & Angeal join SOLDIER, but aren't put through the SOLDIER process?

Well I'm sure they were showered with Mako, but they already had Jenova cells (sorta), so why give them more.

Fast-forward 25-ish years. Zack joins SOLDIER, goes through the SOLDIER process, and finds himself under Angeal's guidance.

Yep, not sure why Hojo thought giving him more Mako and more cells would do anything, but he's Hojo. He's not the best scientist.

Genesis is injured. Sephiroth can't help, why exactly? Because he has S cells? Because a few months later Hollander realizes the deterioration process and Genesis learns the origins of his birth. Genesis suspects that Gillian can stop deterioration, so she kills herself. Now was she a scientist too? It seems that way.

Yeah I'm sure it has to do with S-cell stuff, given what they did to that Genesis copy. At the time, I assumed Hollander - having known the conditions of both experiments, didn't want to contaminate his experiment with Hojo's.
But in light of the CC Ultimania, yeah, S-Cell stuff.

Gillian kills herself because...I don't actually remember, its been awhile. She didn't wanna hep Genesis or felt guilty for what he had become or something.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Jenova's most important ability (to the Shin-Ra scientists) is her ability to make "copies" of herself out of living things by "coping" parts of her DNA over their DNA. This is done with her cells (J-cells).

I don't remember anything ever saying this. Do you have a source?

Ilfana
It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers.
Showing us spectres of their past.
That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came.
He first approached as a friend, deceived them, and finally...... gave them the virus.
The Cetra were attacked by the virus and went mad... transforming into monsters.

This is where I first got the idea that Jenova can change other people's DNA as well as his/her own. It also seemed to me that she had some measure of control over what the virus did. Also, in Chapter 6 of CC it's confirmed that:

Angeal
It is possible to inject my cells into other people---
Hollander
Bidirectional Clones---It means that you've received Jenova's power.

I was trying to think of a plausible way this could work and the DNA copying idea was the only one I could think of that seemed plausible.

Sometime back in the past she looses the ability to do this. (I personally think it's when she was sealed by the Cetra.)

You are right, this is not supported by canon. On the other hand, it isn't dissproven either. I came to this conclusion when I was trying to figure out why Jenova didn't put a virus into Gast when he first excavated her (he must have touched her sometime) and why she didn't try a little harder to break out of the glass tube she's been floating in for 20-25 years. As it's been said time and time again that Sephiroth took over her will and not the other way around, that means that her "mind" is still alive. It's just that she can't control her body. I figured something big (like her being sealed by the Cetra and Planet) had to have happened to Jenova for her to loose control of her cells like that.

The hard part about this is balancing out the "fantasy" part of the FFVII world, which has no explanation, with the "science" part, which can be explained. Maybe I should start putting up warnings when I speculate about ideas that are neither proven or disproven by canon...

From where are you getting that Cloud has more JENOVA cells or mako exposure than members of SOLDIER? We've only ever been told that he had the basic SOLDIER procedure used on him.

He didn't get any more cells than anyone who was in SOLDIER. The Ultimania Omega for VII even says (pg. 213) that the procedure wasn't any different than the procedure used with SOLDIERs,

I honestly didn't know this and I forget if this is mentioned anywhere in the actual games. I will keep this in mind. (Starts grumbling about the fact that I can't read the entire Ulimania Omega because I cannot read Japanese or any other language that isn't English...)

Mako is unnecessary to the contraction of Geostigma. Neither Rufus nor Denzel had any contact with it when they received JENOVA's cells.

I looked back though canon and yeah, mako isn't necessary. I guess that means that the black water somehow had J-cells in it.

Genesis & Angeal join SOLDIER, but aren't put through the SOLDIER process?

Well I'm sure they were showered with Mako, but they already had Jenova cells (sorta), so why give them more.

I think they would give them J-cells because they had already written Genesis and Angeal off as failures. It wasn't like they (Shin-Ra) had any reason to think that they were any different from anyone else trying to get into SOLDIER at this point.

he's Hojo. He's not the best scientist.

Nothing could be more true about most of the scientists in FFVII. In fact, the only one who could be considered a 'good' scientist is Gast; he tries to put a stop to the Jenova Project when he realizes that the theory it is based on (Jenova is a Cetra) is wrong. Everyone else keeps doing it once they find out. You would think they would at least apply the Scientific Method...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Genesis suspects that Gillian can stop deterioration, so she kills herself. Now was she a scientist too? It seems that way.

The Q&A from the CC Ultimania says she was:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/340/crisis-core-ultimania-scenario-qa/

Aeris didn't die with any blood either, remember.

Presumably because it would have either looked goofy given the graphics of the time, or the developers didn't want to make the scene too messy.

There's no way a wound like that wouldn't bleed, though.

This is where I first got the idea that Jenova can change other people's DNA as well as his/her own.

It was just the last couple sentences from you I had quoted that I was inquiring about: "Sometime back in the past she looses the ability to do this. (I personally think it's when she was sealed by the Cetra.)"

You are right, this is not supported by canon. On the other hand, it isn't dissproven either. I came to this conclusion when I was trying to figure out why Jenova didn't put a virus into Gast when he first excavated her (he must have touched her sometime) and why she didn't try a little harder to break out of the glass tube she's been floating in for 20-25 years. As it's been said time and time again that Sephiroth took over her will and not the other way around, that means that her "mind" is still alive. It's just that she can't control her body. I figured something big (like her being sealed by the Cetra and Planet) had to have happened to Jenova for her to loose control of her cells like that.

It didn't lose its powers, it was just comatose. Pg. 210 of the Ultimania Omega says that the Cetra put the creature into a deep sleep underground.

Maybe I should start putting up warnings when I speculate about ideas that are

neither proven or disproven by canon...

Most definitely. Otherwise, confusion will ensue.

 

[ForceStealer]

Presumably because it would have either looked goofy given the graphics of the time, or the developers didn't want to make the scene too messy.

There's no way a wound like that wouldn't bleed, though.

I know, my point was just that the lack of blood in in-game graphics doesn't really mean anything in regards to how she killed herself.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It didn't lose its powers, it was just comatose. Pg. 210 of the Ultimania Omega says that the Cetra put the creature into a deep sleep underground.

For all practical purposes I have not read the Ultimania Omega. If there are facts in there that are not in the original game or if it carifies certain aspects of it, I will not know about them. That said, thank you for using actuall evedence to point out the weak points in my theory, and not your own opinion. I appreciate it.

As it is, I don't see a very big difference between Jenova being comatose and Jenova's mind existing inside her body somewhere, but with no control of her body. Incedently, the OG only says that the Cetra confined Jenova, not what Jenova's condition is.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

For all practical purposes I have not read the Ultimania Omega. If there are facts in there that are not in the original game or if it carifies certain aspects of it, I will not know about them.

Why not?!

It's one of the very in-depth and fantastic translations that we have linked on the Front Page! It's also really useful for discussion around here, since most people (at least the older members) are fairly familiar with it.


X

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I've read all of those, but they only go up to page 101. Ariadne is talking about information on pg. 210 and 213. As the Ultimania is around 500 pages, I've only read about 1/5 of it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Why not?!

It's one of the very in-depth and fantastic translations that we have linked on the Front Page! It's also really useful for discussion around here, since most people (at least the older members) are fairly familiar with it.


X

Errr, we don't have much on the UO, actually.

The UO's the one that dropped in 05. We have translations for the U10, which dropped in 07.

Totally different animals.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^That explains a lot.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Errr, we don't have much on the UO, actually.

The UO's the one that dropped in 05. We have translations for the U10, which dropped in 07.

Totally different animals.

... Does this mean that we have an obvious project that Hito hasn't been requested to work on....?

If so, how the hell did we drop the ball on that?!? Does the U10 cover any of the same points, or re-clarify anything that the UO got wrong? It seems like we need to have someone work on getting it translated for us, because I'm fairly certain that I own ALL of them, and if we need scans, I can get them to be translated... (I really oughta make a list of all the FFVII-related shit I own, so you guys can ask for things like this if we need it in the future).


(Big apologies about slightly de-railing the discussion here guys)


X

 

[Ryushikaze]

... Does this mean that we have an obvious project that Hito hasn't been requested to work on....?

If so, how the hell did we drop the ball on that?!? Does the U10 cover any of the same points, or re-clarify anything that the UO got wrong? It seems like we need to have someone work on getting it translated for us, because I'm fairly certain that I own ALL of them, and if we need scans, I can get them to be translated... (I really oughta make a list of all the FFVII-related shit I own, so you guys can ask for things like this if we need it in the future).


(Big apologies about slightly de-railing the discussion here guys)


X

It's some interesting stuff, but rather a lot of it is stuff that we do know already, and quite a lot of the book is basically going through the events of the game and telling us the most pointless things.
Which is not to say a partial translation is not worthwhile, but there's a lot of filler, and a lot of the information in it is redundant.