City-wide Great Gospel?

[ForceStealer]

I'm not positive Jenova cells DO change your DNA, I'm not sure if Obsidian was saying what he thinks or speaking from a a source. I've heard the theory before...I think its half right. Sephiroth's DNA was absolutely altered, as apparent by the physical traits he actually shares with Jenova. But he received the cells at such an early stage of life that that might be the explanation.

In the case of Gillian (and thus Genesis and Angeal), they specifically mention "gene mapping," that is, grafting Jenova DNA onto hers. So I think its safe to assume that everyone with wings have had an affect on their actual DNA. SOLDIERs I don't think so. Nothing physically changes about them, they just become more difficult to kill, basically.

But Cloud does get the cat-eyes occasionally in ACC, so I might be wrong. To be honest I've been a little foggy on all this since we there started being a difference between S-Cells and J-Cells. I used to think the Sephiroth Copy project just involved Hojo shoving Jenova cells into the mentally shattered survivors of the Nibelheim Incident just to see if they would turn out like Sephiroth and, failing that, if they would proceed towards the Reunion.
But now that S-Cells are different...even playing Crisis Core I thought Genesis thinking they were different was simply him grasping at straws and they were just J-cells. But the Crisis Core complete guide disproved that.

 

[Tifabelle]

So where does this "Geostigma is healed after Sephiroth is gone, but Aerith's rain gets rid of the J cells" come in? Because it made sense to me for a moment, but that moment has passed.

 

[ForceStealer]

lol, well it's not so much "healed" after he's dead as "it doesn't hurt any more."

As I said Sephiroth was commanding the Jenova cells in people (that became dispersed due to the prevalence of Jenova cells in the Lifestream when it came to stop Meteor) to begin attacking the body. As Vincent explains the stigma is the body's overreaction to the attack. Aerith's rain destroys Jenova's cells, hence why Cloud loses it while Sephiroth is still around. And Great Gospel always healed damage, so it also heals the black puss-filled wounds.

Once Sephiroth is killed however, his command to the Jenova cells ceases and they again become dormant. Aerith's healing would still be needed to immediately cleanse the wounds however (and get rid of the cells). So people in Kalm or Wutai would still have Jenova cells and the marks until those naturally healed, but the Jenova cells would no longer be attacking them so they wouldn't be in pain/dying.

 

[Tifabelle]

You know everything made sense to me before this thread came into existence. Then it took everything I knew and slaughtered it. Now I'm back to the beginning again. Or something. Maybe I'm a little smarter, but it's so hard to tell.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Now I don't understand all this business of Aerith's rain getting rid of J cells but not the DNA being changed?

Seperating non-human cells from a body made up of human cells is nowhere near as difficult as separating non-human DNA from human DNA. In this case, identifying the non-human DNA would be easy, as Jenova is an alien. The hard part would be getting rid of it. The only way I could see you getting rid of her DNA is if there was a cell with the same copying abilities as a J-cell, only the DNA it would be copying would be human DNA and it would have to be "smart" enough to know to only copy over the Jenova DNA mixed in with the human DNA.

As far as Genesis & Angeal being considered failures, that wouldn't be until degredation started, right? So that would be around the time of Crisis Core. So there wouldn't be a need to inject them further. Unless something else made them failures.

Most of the answers to your questions about Angeal's and Genesis' childhood and the G Project can be found here:

Crisis Core Ultimania Scenario Q&A

It was done with the creators so it's canon. I reference it all the time.

Once Sephiroth is killed however, his command to the Jenova cells ceases and they again become dormant. Aerith's healing would still be needed to immediately cleanse the wounds however (and get rid of the cells). So people in Kalm or Wutai would still have Jenova cells and the marks until those naturally healed, but the Jenova cells would no longer be attacking them so they wouldn't be in pain/dying.

This is why I made a distinction between J-cells when no one is controlling them, and when Jenova or Sephiroth is controlling them.

I'm not positive Jenova cells DO change your DNA, I'm not sure if Obsidian was saying what he thinks or speaking from a a source.

I came up with the J-cells changing human DNA idea from the following definition from the Crisis Core Ultimania.

G-Type SOLDIER

Those created by Project G, and used to refers to Angeal and Genesis (in a broader sense, it also includes Hollander, who had applied the same treatment to himself during the game).

The Copy ability they possess is the influence of Jenova’s own abilities to convert its target into a monster by implanting it with a virus it generates within its own body, and to mimic the form of people the target knows through reading their memories and emotions. However, as the Jenova cells are not fixed in their bodies, a G-Type SOLDIER will succumb to degradation symptoms as time passes.

The fact that a virus is used implied that the target's DNA was being altered. However, instead of changing the cell so that it makes more viruses, the DNA from Jenova changes the target into a monster, which is her desired result. It is interesting that Jenova uses a virus for this purpose when it is stated that her own cells can modify her own DNA.

I figured it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that if Jenova's cells can modify Jenova's DNA, they can modify other people's DNA as well.

Obsidian was saying what he thinks

This cracked me up...

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I know our translations I understand Genesis and Angeal, it's this S-cell/J-cell thing that gets me.

S-cells are Sephiroth's cells, (as they have been affected by Jenova from his conception), all right, I get that. But the Sephiroth Copy Project involved using S-cells? How? First off all, where did Hojo get S-cells at that point? Sephiroth was gone. The Sephiroth Copy Project always originally seemed to just be using Jenova cells, and they weren't really copying Sephiroth, Hojo was just giving unstable people Jenova cells.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

But the Sephiroth Copy Project involved using S-cells? How? First off all, where did Hojo get S-cells at that point? Sephiroth was gone. The Sephiroth Copy Project always originally seemed to just be using Jenova cells, and they weren't really copying Sephiroth, Hojo was just giving unstable people Jenova cells.

As Sephiroth grew up in the Shin-Ra labs, I would imagine Hojo had plenty of access to "samples" of S-cells.

In the OG the Sephiroth Copy Project did not use S-cells, but in CC it definitely did. S-cells were the entire reason Genesis went after Zack and Cloud.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah, like I said when I played CC I assumed Genesis was just making shit up at that point because he was getting desperate and grasping at straws.

The Complete guide obviously disproves that theory but, I dunno, still seems odd...

 

[Tifabelle]

Yeah, like I said when I played CC I assumed Genesis was just making shit up at that point because he was getting desperate and grasping at straws.

Nah. He had Hollander with him. At the very least it was Hollander's untested hypothesis. But more likely, they knew what they were doing. But they were searching for "pure S cells" as opposed to...unpure...S cells. So what's the difference there?

I feel this conversation suddenly has taken on a different tone. idk why.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I feel this conversation suddenly has taken on a different tone. idk why.

It's because I made that one really long, detailed post and people started asking me where I got my ideas and how much of my ideas came from canon. It's partially my fault too because the topic is one I'm actually interesting in (unlike the LTD) and because the majority of my ideas are based on facts I have read in canon. I actally like it when you guys do this becasue I end up double-checking everything.

 

[ForceStealer]

Obsidian was saying what he thinks

This cracked me up...

I only just saw this, are you a she and that's what's funny? Or do you think I was belittling you?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I only just saw this, are you a she and that's what's funny? Or do you think I was belittling you?

It was the use of "he" in the sentence that I found funny; I am a she.

 

[ForceStealer]

Okay good

And sorry

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It's okay, it's not like I put it up on my profile or anything.

 

[Tifabelle]

Ok, ok. Let's pretend I'm dumb. If you have the patience, can we take this from the beginning and go step by step?

At the beginning - Gast & Hojo discover Jenova. They think she's an Ancient, blah blah. We know all that. So then starts the Jenova Project apx 30 years prior to FFVII. Jenova Project G is first, being led by Hollander, whereby Jenova's cells are injected into Gillian while she is pregnant with Angeal. Then her cells are injected into fetus Genesis. They were considered failures (not sure why) when they were babies.

Shortly after this (or around the same time), Hojo starts Jenova Project S, where he injects Jenova cells directly into fetus Sephiroth. This also affected Lucrecia. Now she states that she couldn't kill herself (right?) bc of Jenova's cells in her body (which is why she encased herself in mako crystal). But Genesis was able to kill his mother (bc her cells were Gillian's jenova cells, "unpure"). But Gillian could kill herself despite having been injected with Jenova cells?

Is that all correct? Let's start with that before I move on, if you don't mind.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I used to think the Sephiroth Copy project just involved Hojo shoving Jenova cells into the mentally shattered survivors of the Nibelheim Incident just to see if they would turn out like Sephiroth and, failing that, if they would proceed towards the Reunion.

Until CC brought this S-Cell shenanigans out of nowhere, that is what the survivors were said to have received, both in the original game and the Ultimania Omega.

As for the Sephiroth Copy Project, its only purpose was to test the Reunion theory.

Jenova's most important ability (to the Shin-Ra scientists) is her ability to make "copies" of herself out of living things by "coping" parts of her DNA over their DNA. This is done with her cells (J-cells). Sometime back in the past she looses the ability to do this. (I personally think it's when she was sealed by the Cetra.)

I don't remember anything ever saying this. Do you have a source?

There is a large amount of evidence that the more J-cells and mako a person is exposed to, the more of their human DNA is overwritten with Jenova's DNA. This would explain why Sephiroth and Cloud are at a much higher level then the rest of SOLDIER. They have the most J-cells and the most mako exposure.

Normally, J-cells don't do more than overwrite DNA because Jenova herself can not control them. Without someone's will behind them, they are neutral. Once the Nibelheim Incedent takes place, this is not the case. Sometime between then and the start of FFVII, Sephiroth takes control of both his mutated human cells (S-cells) and the J-cells. For just about all SOLDIERs, except Cloud, this is not a big deal because (comparatively) they have hardly any J-cells for him to control them with. They also don't have amnesia. Cloud, on the other hand, has J-cell amounts that are in the same league as Sephiroth's and he has a large amount of S-cells as well.

From where are you getting that Cloud has more JENOVA cells or mako exposure than members of SOLDIER? We've only ever been told that he had the basic SOLDIER procedure used on him. Granted, he's been dumped in the Lifestream enough times that he's probably got the mako junkie angle covered, but not the other.

He especially wouldn't have JENOVA cells on the level of Seph, as you said here, given that all the cells in Seph's entire body are permeated with the alien's genetic material.

If anything, Zack had the most cells and mako of anybody second to Sephiroth given that he went through the SOLDIER program and then Hojo's experiment with the survivors of Nibelheim as well.

As it has been stated, Geostigma occurs when the body overextends itself because it is fighting off J-cells. It is significant that the way to contract Geostigma is to get a dose of a J-cells/mako mixture.

Mako is unnecessary to the contraction of Geostigma. Neither Rufus nor Denzel had any contact with it when they received JENOVA's cells.

In other words, at the end of ACC, Cloud does not have any J-cells in him, but he does have all the traits the J-cells copied over into his own cells ...

This much is true. Any changes the JENOVA cells would have made to Cloud's own cells should remain in place with or without the alien's.

Meat doesn't become less tender when you take the meat tenderizer away.

But Genesis was able to kill his mother (bc her cells were Gillian's jenova cells, "unpure").

Genesis killed his adoptive mother. We don't know anything about his birth mother.

But Gillian could kill herself despite having been injected with Jenova cells?

Why this is the case when Lucrecia couldn't kill herself is entirely unclear.

 

[Tifabelle]

Genesis killed his adoptive mother. We don't know anything about his birth mother.

Does Tseng say something? About him being adopted? I can't remember. Also, was Hollander Genesis' birth father (do we know), because I was not under the impression that he was.

Why this is the case when Lucrecia couldn't kill herself is entirely unclear.

All right. I'll pretend I didn't ask


EDIT: Was the other stuff I said good to go?

 

[ForceStealer]

That is true about Gillian, but Jenova makes you difficult to kill, not impossible. I suppose if she just had stronger determination (And no magic crystal in which to seal herself) she could do it. You'd think it would be awfully gory though, given what it took to kill Zack

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Does Tseng say something? About him being adopted? I can't remember.

It's in that plot Q&A from the Crisis Core Ultimania.

Also, was Hollander Genesis' birth father (do we know), because I was not under the impression that he was.

Yes.

EDIT: Was the other stuff I said good to go?

Other than the "Gast and Hojo" part, yes. It was just Gast.

 

[Tifabelle]

Hrm. Now that I think on it, Sephiroth is killed. But yet Lucrecia couldn't do it. Maybe you're right, she didn't try very hard. Although Gillian didn't seem to have to try to hard. I don't remember seeing any blood

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, yeah, of course it shouldn't be impossible. In Seph's case, though, the guy was blown apart and his very spirit beaten down by Cloud before it got dragged off into the Lifestream, so he's kind of a special case for a lot of reasons anyway.

One really has to wonder what Gillian did since her body appeared entirely intact and she had no obvious wounds. Lucrecia must not have tried anything more lethal than holding her breath.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

From where are you getting that Cloud has more JENOVA cells or mako exposure than members of SOLDIER? We've only ever been told that he had the basic SOLDIER procedure used on him. Granted, he's been dumped in the Lifestream enough times that he's probably got the mako junkie angle covered, but not the other.

He especially wouldn't have JENOVA cells on the level of Seph, as you said here, given that all the cells in Seph's entire body are permeated with the alien's genetic material.

If anything, Zack had the most cells and mako of anybody second to Sephiroth given that he went through the SOLDIER program and then Hojo's experiment with the survivors of Nibelheim as well.

I was under the impression, which might be mistaken, that Cloud had significant quantities of cells put into his body during his years in the lab in Nibelheim - the same amount as Zack.

Mako is unnecessary to the contraction of Geostigma. Neither Rufus nor Denzel had any contact with it when they received JENOVA's cells.

Case of Shinra would seem to support this:
""...Amongst the ones with post-symptoms of the disease, we have seen many who appears to be stained with black water. I believe they have either submerged or drank the water themselves without knowing it. It is water after all. When you think of it like that then they could have absorbed it from anywhere."
"What do you mean when you say if you think of it like that?" Rufus asked, curious in the doctor's choice of words.
"The pain and fever the patients experience is proof that their bodies are fighting a foreign substance. Compared to other illnesses, it is perhaps too much for them to endure. However, the one who brought about this substance is powerful. Nothing can be done to ease their suffering."
"Have you found out the true source of this disease?"
"...They are Sephiroth's genes, you could say they are Jenova's genes in a way - No, you should say they are remnants of his genes. It is as I have once told you. They resemble the distinct characteristics that Soldiers had."
Rufus' memory of being surrounded by black water suddenly came to mind again and his body froze at the sound of Sephiroth's name."

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I was under the impression, which might be mistaken, that Cloud had significant quantities of cells put into his body during his years in the lab in Nibelheim - the same amount as Zack.

He didn't get any more cells than anyone who was in SOLDIER. The Ultimania Omega for VII even says (pg. 213) that the procedure wasn't any different than the procedure used with SOLDIERs, except that people selected to be in SOLDIER were chosen from a prime group that had demonstrated the mental strength to go unaffected by the process. Those used in the Sephiroth Copy Project were not selectively chosen at all, and it was instead hoped that their minds would be too fragile to resist any negative effects.

Case of Shinra would seem to support this: ...

It doesn't say anything about mako there.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It doesn't say anything about mako there.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant it supported the point that they didn't have to be in contact with the mako; they contracted it from remnant infected water.

 

[Tifabelle]

Ok. Next step for anyone who cares to follow, lol.


After seeing Sephiroth's success, Hojo initiates SOLDIER whereby members are showered with mako and injected with Jenova cells?

Genesis & Angeal join SOLDIER, but aren't put through the SOLDIER process?

Fast-forward 25-ish years. Zack joins SOLDIER, goes through the SOLDIER process, and finds himself under Angeal's guidance.

Genesis is injured. Sephiroth can't help, why exactly? Because he has S cells? Because a few months later Hollander realizes the detereoration process and Genesis learns the origins of his birth. Genesis suspects that Gillian can stop deterioration, so she kills herself. Now was she a scientist too? It seems that way.