Cloud vs Sephiroth

[Dark and Divine]

First of all, welcome to the forums!

Nice post!

But to answer your question...

It's really an annoying question. How can Cloud be above his teammates if he's slower than one, and how can Sephiroth be the best if he's not either?

Because it's not just about speed.

It's also about strength, raw power, endurance, stamina, etc.

Chaos Vincent and Omega Weiss, while powerful, never depicted the kind of power Sephiroth has.

For starters, none of them has a spirit/will so powerful that allows them to surpass death and hold back Holy like Sephiroth has.

As for physical strength, Chaos Vincent and Omega Weiss may be almost on par with Sephiroth.

But in terms of raw, magical power, Sephiroth is leagues above both of them.

Sephiroth gained an immense magical power after absorbing the knowledge held in the Lifestream for five years while regenerating his body.

After his death in the Northen Crater, through Geostigma, Sephiroth was able to corrupt a large amount of Lifestream and bend it to his will, creating, in a sense, his own Lifestream and achieving, to an extent, what he wanted to achieve in FFVII.

And we had glimpses of Sephiroth's formidable power when he covered the sky with the Negative Lifestream with a mere wave of his hand or when he brought down the top of Shinra's building with little to no exertion.

Chaos Vincent and Omega Weiss were nowhere near of the same feats.

That's why Sephiroth is the strongest being in the FFVII universe, because of his physical prowess, his immense magical power and his indomminable spirit, even though he may not be the fastest.

Same thing for Cloud, it's because his balance between power, speed and such that he's the strongest member of Avalanche overall.

 

[Bad]

Thank you . I tried to make an interesting, although unfortunately long post. Sometimes that just can't be helped.

That's some really good insight on my question. Completely possible as well. I suppose I took the "above all" to mean in every regard, and I can't help but still feel that way, since it just seems that is how it should be. Not that it necessarily is and it is logical that it need not be, now that you point it out as you did. But, yes, I can see how the total package is pertaining to more than just speed. I guess that slipped my mind as I was focusing on one part of the whole.

Now that I think of it though. Wasn't Sephiroth doing the Chaos/Omega Vanishing & teliporting thing way back in Crisis Core Nibelheim? Before he became what he did at the end of FF7 and then the even stronger AC version. That makes me think it's all relative and stylized presentation is to blame for the confusion that made me post the question.

I reread the ultimania and it says this for Cloud's Omnislash: When the limit is reached, his sword is imbued with fighting spirit from the heart for just a moment. In the blink of an eye, 14 hits of damage are dealt one after another…. Cloud then dramatically leaps into the air and brings his sword down for the final slash.

Cloud used Omnislash on Sephiroth as I pointed out in my previous post. It doesn't look like this scene was slowed down, rather it appeared to be happening in real time- for the fight as a whole anyway- , but seeing as how the strike happens in the blink of an eye and Sephiroth fends it off accordingly with out any flashy effects-I take that to imply that they are in fact moving at high speeds all the time. That even though the onslaught from Cloud seemed kinda slow, it would actually have been very fast to an observer. Anyone have a comment on this?

I'm probably analyzing it more than it is meant to be. I doubt Square really cares about my plight.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Holy crap, that's...the most well written and elaborated post I've seen a new member make here, ever.

I like you.

You thoroughly expounded my sentiments and their logical conclusions, wonderfully. I pretty much agree with everything. Interesting point about Sephiroth's attack where he repeatedly stabbed Cloud again and again. It more than likely isn't Octoslash and I counted the same number of hits.

Omnislash V1 takes place in a split second? I think it's stated in the ultimania under the description? Feedback please, if you would be so kind. If it does, that was an incredibly slowed down second. It's nothing compared to V6 though, what with complete bisections, spirit copies and instantaneous speed.

It's actually described as taking place in the "blink of an eye" which is just metaphor for being incredibly fast. That's said in Cloud's 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile.

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/348/cloud-strife-character-profile-p36-41/

It's clearly not a literal second or blink of an eye, but still extremely fast. I too found the fact Sephiroth had learned from his previous failure amazing and a good showcase of how this version of Sephiroth is "stronger" and "better" this time around. Omnislash V.6 however, is truly sick. The fact Cloud lights up like a mako powered Christmas tree only reinforces the point of how strong he is. Since you brought up DC, what's also interesting is that he demonstrated an ability akin to the DG Tsviets, in terms of making copies with his spirit energy. Shelke was able to preform this ability in the DC Multiplayer mode when she went into her Colorless Mode and had an ample supply of outside mako energy. Rosso was also able to do the same thing too. Very, interesting.

I try not to think too much of DC, to be honest due to its insane and over the top presentation. What I go by is the consistent creator commentary that's been said post DC that says Sephiroth is the strongest SOLDIER of them all, and stands above the rest. DG SOLDIER is another, secret division of SOLDIER so I take that statement as further reinforcement that barring Weiss merged with Omega, Sephiroth is still the premier and strongest member of the organization.

I do think its merely a factor of presentation and not meant to be seen as fact. Sephiroth is still higher and above them. Loz is certainly not faster than Sephiroth, and in a DMW scene in CC we see Sephiroth move at speed akin to Loz, that is so fast, Zack can't even see him. And in that instant he slays a platoon of Genesis Copies.

So yeah, its a matter of presentation and we see Sephiroth having the same inhuman speed as the others.

Anyways, great post. And wonderful discussion. ^^

 

[ForceStealer]

Regardless of quality of storytelling and stylistic presentation, it fun to think about if there were humans in the real world that actually possessed that much power unto themselves. Just imagine possessing so much power that it actually manifested as physical light around you, lol.

Also interesting, while Sephiroth has all of this immense power at his finger tips at almost all times, Cloud's power is potentially greater than Sephiroths, but he has significantly less control over it. Not that it controls him a la Chaos, but that he has to be in a very specific emotional state to tap into his true strength. What do you think in-universe reason for that would be? (I know the real-world reason, but that's boring )

Yes Cloud's power was diminished due to his low confidence throughout the first half of AC, but by the Bahamut fight he is more or less back to normal, but he obviously can't use a move like Omnislash (even the regular one) at will. Why not, when Sephiroth can pretty much use any power or move he wants, whenever he wants?

The rest of Cloud's limits seem to be more or less accessible at will. He used Blade Beam exactly when he wanted to, and Finishing Touch. Especially in the case of Finishing Touch, when he was having absolutely no problems with the battle and was the easy winner, he was able to tab into his spiritual energies. But he can't charge them THAT high at will.

Again, I know this, as in all other mediums, is to give the hero underdog status. But what about IN the universe, is that jsut yet another part of what makes Sephiroth so formidable, that he has access to his full potential at all times?

Just musing, sorry.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Well, I think it has largely to do with the fact that Sephiroth doesn't even think like everyone else, so it's a different thought process and he's mentally not really on the same plane. Or some shit like that, I think I read it somewhere. Unless I made it up and someone can correct me

Cloud is strong, but Cloud is still human. Not only physically, but mentally, whereas Sephiroth has crossed that line. So, in universe, I would assume that is why he is so dangerous.

It seems Sephiroth has access to some sort of 'spirit energy' at all times and is able not only to access it, but bend it to his will (invade and conquer), whereas Cloud can only access it in small doses (limit breaks) and it's largely a last-ditch attempt which I doubt he has much controll over.

Sephiroth is still the premier and strongest member of the organization.

THIS.

 

[Dashell]

So yeah Bad comes in here and makes the best post in this entire thread just like that

Good job on that. That's a really good explanation of what happened. And you're right about how both Sephiroth and Cloud got stronger. Also, as you kinda said, if Sephiroth comes back again, I think he has no choice but to decapitate Cloud to defeat him.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Which would make absolutely no sense, because the story would essentially fold in on itself

That's why Sephiroth coming back would be ridiculous. The escalation of violence would reach ridiculous levels. That, and Sephiroth's presence and the past confrontations/story would be cheapened since they'd be essentially rendered moot. Not much to say about the "final confrontation" when it isn't final.

 

[Dashell]

Didn't some... important guy that works at Square say "he isn't done yet." in response to someone asking if Sephiroth would return? I remember reading that somewhere... god knows where though.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Unless you mean Sephiroth's VA who was just talking about what he felt regarding his "I will never be a memory" line.

 

[Dashell]

No, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Nothin new here.

Anyways... I don't remember where I read it. I'd look for it but knowing me it was something I dreamed.

EDIT:
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sephiroth

Morikawa also noted that, with Sephiroth's on-screen presence, he knew his final lines had to be done properly, and with input from the director, gave Sephiroth's iconic final words a sense that "he's not done yet".

That's probably what I read.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yup, that's what I meant.

But that hardly assures we'll see him again.

 

[Dashell]

Right, I take that back, I just read it on a site as "*name that sounds important* says he's not done yet." I wasn't aware that it was the VA. My bad.

But hey you never know... hey check out the end of FFVII, maybe Sephiroth comes back and his "shining future" is that ... Shinra is destroyed and everything is covered in green again. ..

Okay that was dumb Que, what the hell?


Also I demand that a mod changes Bad's name to Good

 

[ForceStealer]

Even if they do mean he's not done yet, that could just mean he'll have future influence from beyond rather than physically returning for teh epic one moar showdownz!!11!

I'd prefer neither, but the former would be better. If they mention him, or some how show the influence he's had on the world, that would be more than enough. Or maybe even have people fearing Sephiroth's return since he's done it twice before, and foreshadowing a return, but he never does

 

[Bad]

Thank you, everyone, for your support and praise.
Thanks Mako and Quexinos.~

You thoroughly expounded my sentiments and their logical conclusions, wonderfully. I pretty much agree with everything.

I think we are of like mind.

Continuation to the compilation is inevitable as I see it. Genesis's awakening will certainly have some significance to a future title, however; Sephiroth making a return again would cheapen the build up and epic nature of ACC. It settled many things and allowed for Cloud's character growth and the dissolution of his fears, worries and doubts. It marked a period of self-realization and acceptance in Cloud.

If he has any future mention in the compilation, it really should not be in the form of a second physical manifestation.

"I will.... never be a memory"

I feel this is that dreaded hubris he possesses more than anything and that Cloud's moving on from the past strengthens the finality of their confrontation. Sephiroth is meant to remain in his memories.

It makes one wonder if it is possible though.

He refuses to be completely dissipated in to the Lifestream. And as long as a fragment of his core remains-which he builds on thoughts of Cloud- he seems able to maintain his individuality. He even seems confident that Cloud will always be able to bring him back regardless. But...

Even if there’s something lacking, it doesn’t matter. Cloud will make me complete.

I take that to imply he means Cloud will complete his own memories and knowledge of himself rather than pull him back to the real world. I may be wrong, feel free to correct me.

The lack of Jenova seems critical against the likelihood of another rebirth.

And the world is undergoing a time of reconstructing and rebirth. Like Aerith says, the world's surface must be healed for the Lifestream to be healed. Cloud and Avalanche are working on the surface while the other Avalanche member is working in the Lifestream. It's a matter of time before any influence he has is gone all together. Even if he is swimming through the Lifestream thinking about what could have been with Cloud...

What good will it really do? Cloud moved on and won't answer his calls.
And the world is moving on too.

He might be able to make some spirit copies like Kadaj and gang again, but even that possibility is thinning as his mark on the world and the fear and hatred of people is being purified.

To sum it up, it seems unlikely we will see him returning in much the same way as he has. If he does... it will really just be a rehash of ACC. His method of rebirth has already be explored.

From the most imprortant viewpoint however, more Sephiroth means more money. So we will see.



In Lifestream Black & White

As long as Cloud remembers me, I can continue to exist. Within the Lifestream, and on the surface. Even if my spirit disseminates, even if just one fragment of a memory courses around the planet, in the end I can count on Cloud’s consciousness to bring me back

As my servants are looking for Mother, if they come across someone who knows me, then from that spirit I can learn of who I once was. And with Mother’s further assistance, I can become fully real. Even if there’s something lacking, it doesn’t matter. Cloud will make me complete.

 

[Dashell]

Even if he is swimming through the Lifestream thinking about what could have been with Cloud...

nah, I won't...

From the most imprortant viewpoint however, more Sephiroth means more money. So we will see.

And that's the key, which unfortunately, negates everything you just said
I know they said it'd never happen but just in case like a bunch of people get fired at Square or something huge happens, I hope they never have Sephiroth pull a Shadow. Square is able to make money with out Seph though, so I don't see it happening. But ... I always wondered...

*Seph and Cloud fight then suddenly*
Sephiroth: Oh crap I wasn't supposed to destroy the world, I was supposed to SAVE it! My bad!
*Seph runs off*
Cloud: What the...?


and just to put things on the level, Shadow was originally supposed to remain dead in the Sonic world but there were a lot of shifts and changes within Sonic team and they ended up bringing him back. As I said though, Square seems smarter than that.

 

[ForceStealer]

And that's the key, which unfortunately, negates everything you just said
I know they said it'd never happen but just in case like a bunch of people get fired at Square or something huge happens, I hope they never have Sephiroth pull a Shadow. Square is able to make money with out Seph though, so I don't see it happening.

Story weaknesses have already angered some FF7 fans, beating the Sephiroth horse a third time could very well alienate the rest of them, therefore Sephiroth doesn't necessarily mean instant gains.

Besides, if that's all they were concerned about they'd just remake the freaking game because that would make them more money than ANYTHING else they could come up with.

They have the Kingdom Hearts series and even Itadaki Street to continue to market Sephiroth, there is no need to compromise FF7's story to bring him back again.

Is it a total impossibility, of course not. But while the Compilation may not be the pinnacle of continuity, I would like to think it is several orders of magnitude higher than Sonic's

 

[Dashell]

OH yeah Kingdom Hearts... sweet! Love KH...

And I guess Sephiroth will just have to remain in the Compilation in spirit

 

[Makoeyes987]

If Sephiroth and Cloud became the Mario and Bowser of FFVII, I'd die inside.

 

[Dashell]

... then who'd be the Luigi?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Vincent Valentine, of course

 

[Dashell]

The Princess would be Tifa I guess. Yoshi - Nanaki, and Toad - Cait Sith. Barret is the crazy religious guy who goes insane in the end =D

 

[Makoeyes987]

LMAO wha? The crazy religious guy? Who is that?

 

[Dashell]

I was quoting Simpsons. I probably did it wrong.

 

[Munatik]

I object to Red being Yoshi. He can't lay eggs, for one, and hitting him on the back of the head in order to force feed him all kinds of garbage is just cruel. Cloud abuse is fine, but I draw the line at animal abuse.

And the religious guy--Kamek?

 

[Dashell]

har har posting in semi old thread.

Okay so me and a friend were talking about this and, well Mako especially, there's something ... somewhere... that I forgot that says that Zack and Aerith only appear in Cloud's mind and it only takes a second and all that. He thinks Zack stopped time like I did (TBH I still think without Zack we'd have a dead Cloud ) Can someone show me where that is? I want to show it to my friend here...

also
Xian84932: and Zack? He's got this 'la dee da' voice like he's telling cloud what to do in school.
Quexinos: Zack: So what if it's hopeless? IF it were me I wouldn't give up. ... now go sit in the corner, no recess for you
Cloud

fun stuff.