Cloud's last line

[Turk]

I am unsure on its meaning... Denzel basically ask whose grave it is when he arrives in front of Zack's "grave", and Cloud answers it's whee a Hero began his Journey.

Is he speaking of himself? Or is it about Zack, in relation with things like death being just another journey or stuff like that? Because it seems pretty out of character for Cloud to call himself a hero...

 

[Midnyte92]

At first I Thought it was himself he was refering to but the more I think about it I start to think he was talking about Zack, but he could be talking about himself, not really sure

 

[A]

He's speaking of himself - that's where Cloud started off his 'journey,' and although it seemed kind of OOC for Cloud to do that, it's kind of a good thing, because Cloud finally recognizes himself as a hero, not someone who, "can't save anyone - my friends, my family - nobody."

Though, I'm pretty sure after the credits when the sword is shown in the church, that's also in dedication for both Zack and Aerith, and how those two are tied together.

 

[Midnyte92]

That makes sense

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud is Zack's living legacy.

Zack wanted Cloud to carry on his pride and dreams, and become a hero. It was there he inherited those things, and thus began his heroic journey.

So yes, he is talking about himself because he's finally accepting his responsibility as a hero. He's finally realized that he can protect those close to him as a hero and not feel inadequate. He's honoring the mantle he inherited from Zack. The mantle of a hero.

 

[Munatik]

I don't see why it has to be absolutely one or the other, or why he couldn't mean both. Even though the language is exclusive (singular hero), there is the fact that Cloud promised to live out Zack's memory and be the living proof of his existence, and in this way, Zack and Cloud are one person (take that however you want, Clackers and Clackettes ).

Then again, Square loves to be ambiguous, and I for one appreciate that.

Spoiler

I fondly remember those intense debates over whether the Planet ended up wiping out humankind because of the way they ended FFVII.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How the hell is FFVII's ending a spoiler here?

And I never thought there was much to debate, seeing as how we hear the laughter of children in the end, and I remember Kitase talking about how people were living in peace with nature in one of his interviews regarding FFVII.

Regarding the line, I don't think you could say Zack's journey as a hero started on the place he died, since...that's where his journey ended. He would've said this is where a hero's journey ended, not begun. I mean, metaphorically Zack's journey as a hero begun since Cloud took up the sword and carried the dream of being a hero for Zack, but Cloud also became a hero himself as well. So it applies to him. He started off in his own fractured way, of becoming the hero he was meant to be, thanks to Zack and his promise.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Also - I don't think it comes of as being as arrogant in Japanese as it sounds in English...

But yes, it's Cloud finally accepting that he is a Hero. He's not just the Identity Crisis compiled memories or Zack / Jenova cells, or someone incapable of saving those people he cares for, and he really understands who he is as a person, and believes in himself. I think that's the general emotion / point that ACC's supposed to show in his character development.


X

 

[Munatik]

How the hell is FFVII's ending a spoiler here?

Hell if I know. But I'm slowly realizing these days that FFVII is an old game, and some youngsters have been getting on board the bandwagon because of AC and CC and everything else in the Compilation besides the actual source material.

But yeah, I dunno why I chose to be a dick about spoiling Aerith's death for those people (LOLOL), but not for the ending. Oh well, it's just one click for them.

And I never thought there was much to debate, seeing as how we hear the laughter of children in the end, and I remember Kitase talking about how people were living in peace with nature in one of his interviews regarding FFVII.

Aye, that was my side of things. I believed humans got their shit together after the catastrophe, and the laughter was really hard to argue with. Nonetheless, I did think it would be interesting if humans went extinct for what they did. Kinda pricked my conscience.

I mean, metaphorically Zack's journey as a hero begun since Cloud took up the sword and carried the dream of being a hero for Zack, but Cloud also became a hero himself as well.

^This is mostly what I'm getting at. Though Zack was an idol for Cloud, he was killed before he could really be a hero, I think. Or at least be a hero for himself. Remember that before they got to Midgar, Zack expressed how much he looked forward to being his own boss as a mercenary--or more exactly, a man who could do everything. But because of his death, Cloud was asked and compelled to continue that new chapter in his life. Though "Cloud" at that point becomes a twisted Zack facade thanks to Jenova (more spoilers, whoops), Cloud does resolve that so that he can be his own hero, and one appropriate for Zack as well.

 

[annacamille]

I was also a little bit confused about that line myself. A and Mako's explanations make sense - thanks!

@FFVII spoilers: I have a friend who is stopped playing FFVII at around the first disk. I asked him if Aerith has died yet and he's like "No.. I'm on the first disk. That happens wayyy later!"
I didn't spoil it for him though xD

 

[BWAngel]

This is mostly what I'm getting at. Though Zack was an idol for Cloud, he was killed before he could really be a hero, I think. Or at least be a hero for himself. Remember that before they got to Midgar, Zack expressed how much he looked forward to being his own boss as a mercenary--or more exactly, a man who could do everything. But because of his death, Cloud was asked and compelled to continue that new chapter in his life. Though "Cloud" at that point becomes a twisted Zack facade thanks to Jenova (more spoilers, whoops), Cloud does resolve that so that he can be his own hero, and one appropriate for Zack as well.

But in Crisis Core, he asks the player don't you think I died a hero, or something along those lines? Anyway, after I just finished watching it, I think that he was talking about both of them. Or, he could be talking about Denzel. I mean it seems highly unlikely, but still I have to throw it out there and see how badly it gets shot.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud's line is about him and about Zack. "I promised I'd live out both our lives." The hero is Cloud, but Cloud himself is also the heroic legacy of Zack.

Cloud is recognizing his own achievements, but he is also recognizing the shoulders of the giants who came before him, as the saying goes.

In essence, what I think is the point of the scene is that it's not a grave- even though it is where Zack died- it's a place where Zack's deeds gave rise to the hero that is Cloud. It's a celebration of Zack's actions and accomplishments, instead of mourning or marking of his death.
It's sort of an echo of the remembering him and Aerith without being weighed down by their loss.

 

[BWAngel]

Cloud's line is about him and about Zack. "I promised I'd live out both our lives." The hero is Cloud, but Cloud himself is also the heroic legacy of Zack.

Cloud is recognizing his own achievements, but he is also recognizing the shoulders of the giants who came before him, as the saying goes.

In essence, what I think is the point of the scene is that it's not a grave- even though it is where Zack died- it's a place where Zack's deeds gave rise to the hero that is Cloud. It's a celebration of Zack's actions and accomplishments, instead of mourning or marking of his death.
It's sort of an echo of the remembering him and Aerith without being weighed down by their loss.

Couldn't have been said better.

 

[Munatik]

Cloud's line is about him and about Zack. "I promised I'd live out both our lives." The hero is Cloud, but Cloud himself is also the heroic legacy of Zack.

Cloud is recognizing his own achievements, but he is also recognizing the shoulders of the giants who came before him, as the saying goes.

In essence, what I think is the point of the scene is that it's not a grave- even though it is where Zack died- it's a place where Zack's deeds gave rise to the hero that is Cloud. It's a celebration of Zack's actions and accomplishments, instead of mourning or marking of his death.
It's sort of an echo of the remembering him and Aerith without being weighed down by their loss.

Aye. Pretty much this.

 

[Tennyo]

Ryu said it best. I don't think I could possibly say it any better.

Question, though. In English they say, "Living Legacy," but in Japanese they say, "Proof of existence." Do they really essentially mean the same thing or...what? The lines just seem so different.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, they mean the same thing.

A "living legacy" is a "proof of existence," since a legacy is something you leave behind after you depart.

 

[Tetsujin]

I like confident!Cloud tbh.

He better be the main character again someday in another instalment. You know you want it.

 

[BOEG]

I'm all for Cloud being a main character in a future installment, but they need to be really careful about character development.

In AC (More specifically now, ACC) Cloud pretty much finds his closure, and protagonists aren't really interesting unless they face some kind of crisis. We don't need Cloud feeling guilty AGAIN.

And frankly, I don't know if Square is any good at an authentic Cloud who isn't, quite, unsure, and subdued.

 

[Suzaku]

The key to understanding Cloud's line is to think about it in the proper context, which is as an answer to Denzel's question. It's not a grave. Not a memorial, some tribute to signify that Zack was there and that's where his journey ended. The proof of Zack's existence -- the legacy that he left to the world, the mark that shows he was there -- is Cloud.

The spot isn't where Zack died, it's where he lived on through Cloud. Cloud's tribute to Zack wasn't a gravemarker, it was living up to his dying wish and becoming a hero.

 

[BWAngel]

I'm all for Cloud being a main character in a future installment, but they need to be really careful about character development.

In AC (More specifically now, ACC) Cloud pretty much finds his closure, and protagonists aren't really interesting unless they face some kind of crisis. We don't need Cloud feeling guilty AGAIN.

And frankly, I don't know if Square is any good at an authentic Cloud who isn't, quite, unsure, and subdued.

I agree. I think if and when they continue the complilation, Cloud may be the main character, but the story is going to be around someone else (possibly Genesis if the secret ending of DoC was anything to go by).

 

[Tennyo]

The key to understanding Cloud's line is to think about it in the proper context, which is as an answer to Denzel's question. It's not a grave. Not a memorial, some tribute to signify that Zack was there and that's where his journey ended. The proof of Zack's existence -- the legacy that he left to the world, the mark that shows he was there -- is Cloud.

The spot isn't where Zack died, it's where he lived on through Cloud. Cloud's tribute to Zack wasn't a gravemarker, it was living up to his dying wish and becoming a hero.

Which is why he fixes the Buster Sword up in the end and puts it in the church.

But yes, very nicely put. Cloud doesn't need to make a memorial because he IS the memorial.

And I think that a new game starring Cloud again would be great. And I think they could do it with him finally being confident. I mean, he seemed to be in quite a "Let's go get em'!" type mood in DoC. There are a lot of other things that could happen in stead of making Cloud revert back to feeling like he can't do anything.

 

[Masamune]

And frankly, I don't know if Square is any good at an authentic Cloud who isn't, quite, unsure, and subdued.

As I've argued before, they could have thrown Cloud into conflict without castrating him and turning him into a mopey emo. He wasn't like that in the original game, and SE tried to justify it as the Cloud we're accustomed with. However, the bottom line is that the success of AC/C is built on fanservice - Cloud overcoming adversity to defeat Sephiroth. They targeted that formula and reaped the profits.

Now in the future, I don't anticipate Cloud struggling with his inner-demons all over again, but I do fear SE will maintain Cloud's status quo as the impassive hero. Which is a shame, but life goes on.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You didn't even comment on the line in question of the topic Masamune.

Nor to the change in Cloud's character and portrayal of how he left and came back. It's not the same as it was in AC.

 

[Masamune]

You didn't even comment on the line in question of the topic Masamune.

Nor to the change in Cloud's character and portrayal of how he left and came back. It's not the same as it was in AC.

It's obvious Cloud realizes what's worth fighting for come the end of both AC & ACC, but that doesn't mean we're gonna meet the Cloud from FFVII. I think that character has long gone and been replaced by SE's new interpretation.

Also, I still had to endure all the sullen looks to the ground and ellipses, but the research for a cure was an improvement. I still would have preferred less of the aforementioned, and Cloud to have kept his distance whilst looking for a cure.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well what about him admitting and saying he started his journey as a hero there and no longer seeing his past as something to be saddened by, but to embrace?

And I figured you'd like that tweak on why he left. Him having a more...active role in trying to help rather than just being depressed and wallowing in his fear and feelings of failure.

And what about his convo with Marlene?