Cloud's Memories: Lifestream, Jenova, or Heard a Story?

[Eerie]

And if Cloud had access to Tifa's memory through Jenova, this fact probably invalidates the accepted resolution of the Lifestream scene. Indeed, there is no longer any evidence that each carries authentic memories of the past relationship.

I was rereading old threads when suddenly

OMG the memory that proves that Cloud IS Cloud is the day Tifa fell in Mount Nibel, which she cannot remember herself so Jenova cannot copy that answer. This is why it's been hinted at *twice* in part 1 and once in ToTP, because it is the most important memory as far as proving that Cloud is Cloud of Nibelheim.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

If Tifa's own memories are to unquestionably validate the memory that pseudo-Cloud offers then I feel that they must be fully present in her and therefore potentially copyable at the time of their meeting.
If Cloud's memories fill in the blanks in Tifa's version then that memory proves nothing at all.
In fact, I absolutely dispute the authenticity of this memory, too many things are interfering with its acceptance.
Not to mention that TOTP-Tifa may now be presenting an impostor's version.

 

[ForceStealer]

What?

 

[Eerie]

The hell are you on, you've been clearly reading too much crap from anti-Tifa people (yes it's the kind of shit they spout and not the crap I expect to see in TLS). This is, prior to the Nibelheim incident, the only memory that she doesn't have. The only one Cloud himself can give an answer to, not Jenova or anyone else.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

anti-Tifa...
But, how would a memory she doesn't have help prove the integrity of Cloud's? Because they're supposed to confront their memories for that purpose, right? If Cloud offers the memory of an event and Tifa also remembers it then this would prove that Cloud is Cloud. But if Tifa is technicallly unable to remember, how do we conclude?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Go play FFVII.

 

[JBedford]

The game's logic is hard to grasp (not helped by translation), but Tifa tries to get Cloud to recall a "memory" (思い出) "locked deep within [his] heart", which surely couldn't be fake (unlike a "memory" (記憶) which can be mistaken or change).

If Cloud by himself recalls a memory and then Tifa "remembers" it, it proves Cloud's childhood memories are his own and so he can't be fake.

 

[KindOfBlue]

anti-Tifa...
But, how would a memory she doesn't have help prove the integrity of Cloud's? Because they're supposed to confront their memories for that purpose, right? If Cloud offers the memory of an event and Tifa also remembers it then this would prove that Cloud is Cloud. But if Tifa is technicallly unable to remember, how do we conclude?

Of course Tifa remembers the day her mother died, she even recognizes it once Cloud recalls that memory, it’s just some of the details are unclear mainly with her ignorance of Cloud’s feelings at the time

 

[Eerie]

@S.L.Kerrigan maybe you don't realise it, but this is exactly what Tifa haters claim because they try to make her role non existant, to reduce her heroine role to nothingness. So yeah, basically "antis".

At some point I think we have to step back and look at the bigger picture which is: what are the devs storytelling. If your theory goes against what the devs have been saying for years, maybe it's not a good theory and you should drop it. They aren't real people, these characters have been created with a certain backstory with the purpose of telling something in the main story, especially this point which is a turning point.

Tifa is not an unreliable narrator; Sephiroth uses it at his advantage in Northern Crater because Cloud himself hid from her, so she didn't know he was there. Once she was stabbed of course she couldn't see anything else, or whatever she saw got lost in fuzzy memories.

In the same fashion, she remembers going to Mount Nibel, but she doesn't remember once she fell, and she feels that the story other people have been feeding her is wrong, because it doesn't aligne with her knowledge of Cloud. This is the reason why in ToTP she thinks that when she'll meet up with Cloud again, she must ask him about that - but well, Cloud being in the state he is and talking about stuff he shouldn't know, she doesn't. She knows that only Cloud can give her the explanation of what happened that day.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

The game's logic is hard to grasp (not helped by translation), but Tifa tries to get Cloud to recall a "memory" (思い出) "locked deep within [his] heart", which surely couldn't be fake (unlike a "memory" (記憶) which can be mistaken or change).

If Cloud by himself recalls a memory and then Tifa "remembers" it, it proves Cloud's childhood memories are his own and so he can't be fake.

I still find it strange that a memory that is supposed to be so profound and unique echoes so strongly with another event: the Nibelheim incident. So much so that in fact the same structures are present: Cloud and Tifa fall from the same bridge, people follow the path of the reactor in a context strongly linked to their mothers (Cloud in particular who has just lost hers).
In a universe in which the developers have taught us that memory is a substance that can be copied and modified by a third party, I can't help but think that what we are shown in this sequence in the Lifestream is in fact a charade.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I still find it strange that a memory that is supposed to be so profound and unique echoes so strongly with another event: the Nibelheim incident. So much so that in fact the same structures are present: Cloud and Tifa fall from the same bridge, people follow the path of the reactor in a context strongly linked to their mothers (Cloud in particular who has just lost hers).
In a universe in which the developers have taught us that memory is a substance that can be copied and modified by a third party, I can't help but think that what we are shown in this sequence in the Lifestream is in fact a charade.

Like I don't even understand your premise here. Are you saying the REAL truth is that Cloud's identity IS a Hojo constructed Sephiroth Copy who carries falsified memories, that PLANTED those memories into Tifa, and everything conveyed in the Lifestream sequence of the game is just an elaborate psychic illusion?

If so, what's the meaning of the entire text of FFVII then? What's communicated by the story in a reading such as this? Why would Sephiroth somehow lose to a fucking literal puppet? Is that what happens with Advent Children? Tifa continued to live with a puppet so deluded it thinks he has a family and connection with someone he never knew? And Tifa still lives a lie?

Do you even understand the narrative you're engaging with here? What are you talking about? Your argument makes zero sense and it's not that you don't understand. You're either doing an elaborate troll or you've somehow never sat down and played the game itself.

The text is clear. If Tifa found a memory within Cloud that was about her that SHE didn't know and didn't COME from her OWN recollection, that would prove he existed and was real.

The fact Cloud DID show up at the Nibelheim Incident 5 years ago, saw Tifa there, actually KILLED Sephiroth AND saved Tifa to fulfill their childhood promise shows he's really Cloud. There's no way he could have mimicked those memories from Tifa because those memories didn't come from Tifa. She never saw Cloud, those were unique memories. So if the fact he proved his own existence and reality and shared that memory with Tifa, shows he's real.

There's no hole or inconsistency here. This is what the text and all subsequent works support and confirm. That's the crux of Cloud's character and development. It is what it is.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I still find it strange that a memory that is supposed to be so profound and unique echoes so strongly with another event: the Nibelheim incident. So much so that in fact the same structures are present: Cloud and Tifa fall from the same bridge, people follow the path of the reactor in a context strongly linked to their mothers (Cloud in particular who has just lost hers).
In a universe in which the developers have taught us that memory is a substance that can be copied and modified by a third party, I can't help but think that what we are shown in this sequence in the Lifestream is in fact a charade.

I think you’re reading way too deep into the parallels, I don’t think anything the devs have ever stated about the Lifestream scene indicates whatever it is that you’re suggesting

 

[Eerie]

I think you are really, really MISSING the GIGANTIC point, like uhhhhhhhhh...

OF COURSE IT'S THE SAME. THAT'S THE POINT!

What Cloud couldn't do when he was 8 years old, he did when he was 16. He came to Tifa's rescue, and even if he was a bit late, his rage of seeing her dying gave him the strength to defeat Sephiroth. That's why Tifa told him "you kept your promise, you came!"

I swear one of these days I'll have to make a whole thread about the Lifestream scene because so many people seem to completely miss the mark with it, I'm totally baffled. There are so many details packed in this scene, but people really *don't think about it* or think it's just one normal scene when... it's not. It's maybe the most important scene in the game and it pains me to see people thinking it's not carefully crafted by the devs to explain about everything.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

Like I don't even understand your premise here. Are you saying the REAL truth is that Cloud's identity IS a Hojo constructed Sephiroth Copy who carries falsified memories, that PLANTED those memories into Tifa, and everything conveyed in the Lifestream sequence of the game is just an elaborate psychic illusion?

Thanks for the opportunity!

The premise is as follows in the current state of my theory:
Life must leave to develop elsewhere, whatever it takes. That is its nature as a cosmic wanderer.

Not so creepy at first sight, is it?
Let me elaborate a bit.

As life has no physical form of its own that would allow it to accomplish its will directly, it uses spiritual energy to influence its creations (Cetras, plants, animals,...) in order to achieve its goal. It can talk to them (in a way that is difficult to explain according to Aerith) because it can manipulate this energy. These creations thus inherit a kind of destiny as they will be subtly guided in a direction defined in advance.

The consequences of what the stream pushes them to do will certainly lead them to refuse the mission as their beloved environment and also their consciousnesses will be swept away (Chaos must precede departure)(theory).
So they should not realise what they are actually doing and if they think that their choices and actions make them heroes it will be easier ("Unattainable dreams are the best kind." Lazard).
In my opinion, the ultimate role of the party will be to trigger the propulsion of the meteor on which the Lifestream will have taken place. (theory)(theory).

Influencing behind the scenes is certainly not an easy task, and it has to be done through memory transfers and manipulation of souvenirs. In particular, it'll have to manage to break Cloud's mind so that he brings the Black Materia, and then repair his mind so that he can resume his place as a hero and continue his mission.
Manipulating memories can be a powerful tool. But inconsistencies are bound to arise, and these inconsistencies may have been staged to give an attentive player the opportunity to see the other side. I think that would be the case with the sequence in the Lifestream but also in some others.

This concept of hidden reality would remind me of Plato's allegory of the cave and Sephiroth's tirade in the Remake:
"Those who look with clouded eyes see nothing but shadows."
"All born are bound to her."
"Should this world be unmade, so too shall her children."

Anyway, this is the framework that is supposed to make sense of my ramblings.
I have no intention of trolling, I'm just trying to acknowledge the work of the developers.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Thanks for the opportunity!

The premise is as follows in the current state of my theory:
Life must leave to develop elsewhere, whatever it takes. That is its nature as a cosmic wanderer.

Not so creepy at first sight, is it?
Let me elaborate a bit.

As life has no physical form of its own that would allow it to accomplish its will directly, it uses spiritual energy to influence its creations (Cetras, plants, animals,...) in order to achieve its goal. It can talk to them (in a way that is difficult to explain according to Aerith) because it can manipulate this energy. These creations thus inherit a kind of destiny as they will be subtly guided in a direction defined in advance.

The consequences of what the stream pushes them to do will certainly lead them to refuse the mission as their beloved environment and also their consciousnesses will be swept away (Chaos must precede departure).
So they should not realise what they are actually doing and if they think that their choices and actions make them heroes it will be easier ("Unattainable dreams are the best kind." Lazard).
In my opinion, the ultimate role of the party will be to trigger the propulsion of the meteor on which the Lifestream will have taken place. (theory).

Influencing behind the scenes is certainly not an easy task, and it has to be done through memory transfers and manipulation of souvenirs. In particular, it'll have to manage to break Cloud's mind so that he brings the Black Materia, and then repair his mind so that he can resume his place as a hero and continue his mission.
Manipulating memories can be a powerful tool. But inconsistencies are bound to arise, and these inconsistencies may have been staged to give an attentive player the opportunity to see the other side. I think that would be the case with the sequence in the Lifestream but also in some others.

This concept of hidden reality would remind me of Plato's allegory of the cave and Sephiroth's tirade in the Remake:
"Those who look with clouded eyes see nothing but shadows."
"All born are bound to her."
"Should this world be unmade, so too shall her children."

Anyway, this is the framework that is supposed to make sense of my ramblings.
I have no intention of trolling, I'm just trying to acknowledge the work of the developers.

I mean, it’s an interesting idea in concept but I don’t think anything the devs have ever said about the Lifestream scene suggests the conclusion you’ve drawn from it

 

[Lestat]

As a theory - fair enough

In reality - nah