Crisis Core....Am I supposed to hate Zack?
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Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Oh? So you ran out of steam before in PMs but now you can talk shit about CC all day?
I see... ヾ(`ヘ´)ﾉﾞ
DIRGE IS SHIT
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
IT'S DIFFERENT WHEN THERE'S MORE PEOPLE WHO DON'T COMPLETELY AGREE WITH ME.
You love her too and you know it.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
They told the story in the least interesting way: making everybody likeable and hiding the unpleasant themes and using cliched shit about monsters and stuff.
Zack changes just a bit but he doesn't mature, not really, during CC. He's the same guy but with a different haircut and sword, and a rank which responsabilities are too much for him to handle buuut let's not explore that, let's have the character live in denial because he's supposed to be upbeat and different from Cloud.
Of course he would go back to HQ; he has a fleeting moment of self-awareness in Nibelheim with all that "SOLDIER is a den of monsters blahblah" but when Cloud changes topic Zack's too happy to drop his intense moment of introspection and he simply refuses to think about it anymore.
He doesn't want to think about it because it makes him feel uneasy and he refuses to deal with unpleasant things. Same reason why he doesn't ask Aerith about Tseng and the Turks and why a totally normal girl would be guarded by them all the time.
I'll be forever disappointed with him for being such a coward. Just in that moment, Zack could have realized that maybe, just maybe, SOLDIER was shit, and he was in deep shit. Fuck, even Sephiroth hinted that Nibelheim might be his last mission and was planning on leaving ShinRa, before he went insane. Zack was so shocked when Sephiroth said that, they go to the reactor and weird shit happens, and what does our hero do later?
Bah, whatever dude, I'm going to bed.
Zack changes just a bit but he doesn't mature, not really, during CC. He's the same guy but with a different haircut and sword, and a rank which responsabilities are too much for him to handle buuut let's not explore that, let's have the character live in denial because he's supposed to be upbeat and different from Cloud.
Of course he would go back to HQ; he has a fleeting moment of self-awareness in Nibelheim with all that "SOLDIER is a den of monsters blahblah" but when Cloud changes topic Zack's too happy to drop his intense moment of introspection and he simply refuses to think about it anymore.
He doesn't want to think about it because it makes him feel uneasy and he refuses to deal with unpleasant things. Same reason why he doesn't ask Aerith about Tseng and the Turks and why a totally normal girl would be guarded by them all the time.
I'll be forever disappointed with him for being such a coward. Just in that moment, Zack could have realized that maybe, just maybe, SOLDIER was shit, and he was in deep shit. Fuck, even Sephiroth hinted that Nibelheim might be his last mission and was planning on leaving ShinRa, before he went insane. Zack was so shocked when Sephiroth said that, they go to the reactor and weird shit happens, and what does our hero do later?
Bah, whatever dude, I'm going to bed.
I'm not ready for a waifu yet.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
You whistleblower.
I wrote that shit once, why should I write it again? I'm lazy, leave me alone.
Torrie
astray ay-ay-ay
I tend to think the same.
I wonder if it's the game's flaw that players may or may not come to this conclusion; it's a matter of chance and giving the characters a deep thought. Do I complain about that? Yes and no. I'm sort of annoyed that there are so many things unshown and unsaid, but on the other hand, there's so much space for interpretation and imagination that it leads to heated discussions and a variety of fanfiction.
Unreal past headcanon! Had Sephiroth died or escaped, Zack would have definitely returned to HQ, but I can easily imagine him taking a long time and using his single brain cell to its full capacity before he would have taken the decision to resign
He probably doesn't because he's positive Aerith doesn't know she's being watched, and he doesn't want to scare her. Zack One-brain-cell Fair at your service.
Even with all that reasoning, I still can't hate him
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I would have liked to see a more mature and cynical Zack, the womanizing Zack full of surface charm whom Aerith described in the OG, a Zack who aspired to be a "hero" because he wanted to be a celebrity and have the money and the fame, a Zack who used to be that naive kid entranced by notions of honour, but who quickly grew out of it once he arrived in Midgar and realised the truth. A Zack who revelled in the physical prowess of being SOLDIER and the adulation of the public, a Zack who fought in the Wutai war and came back racist towards "weak, cowardly" Wutaians.
I would have enjoyed seeing such a man try to redeem himself by dragging Cloud's comatose ass all the way around the planet, especially if Cloud was a grunt he barely knew to talk to before they ended up in adjoining test-tubes.
I would have enjoyed seeing such a man try to redeem himself by dragging Cloud's comatose ass all the way around the planet, especially if Cloud was a grunt he barely knew to talk to before they ended up in adjoining test-tubes.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Wait, are we talking about Shelke? Who doesn't love Shelke?
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I think what can't be overstated with Zack (and, anyone really in the FFVII world) is how pervasive Shinra is. Everyone who tries to get away from them is hunted down. And Zack (and Sephiroth) know that. Because they were the ones sent to hunt down Genesis and Angeal. It's very much a situation where if they "play by the rules" they aren't bothered that much and when they don't "play by the rules" they basically have nowhere to go and what is essentially the government of the entire world gunning for them.
It's a lot less a question of "why doesn't Zack do the morally right thing and leave?" and a lot more "does Zack really want to have Shinra after him?" When they currently have no reason to go after him if he just... stays at Shinra. He's never had a personal beef with them, not like Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth do.
I think, Zack does break in CC... When Angeal forces Zack to kill him. The thing is... the take-away Zack took from that was Angeal's rigid moral code and obsession with honor. But really, who wants to accociate the kind of stuff Genesis and Angeal say Shinra did with the de facto world government? Especially when there isn't a lot of proof for it except for the word of some Soldiers who aren't explaining themselves well?
It's a lot less a question of "why doesn't Zack do the morally right thing and leave?" and a lot more "does Zack really want to have Shinra after him?" When they currently have no reason to go after him if he just... stays at Shinra. He's never had a personal beef with them, not like Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth do.
I think, Zack does break in CC... When Angeal forces Zack to kill him. The thing is... the take-away Zack took from that was Angeal's rigid moral code and obsession with honor. But really, who wants to accociate the kind of stuff Genesis and Angeal say Shinra did with the de facto world government? Especially when there isn't a lot of proof for it except for the word of some Soldiers who aren't explaining themselves well?
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Aerith is actively involved with them, she's not clueless about being watched and Tseng tells Zack this much. Cissnei confirms this dynamic later.
This is yet another instance of Zack refusing to know or care about what he's getting into.
No, not in a million years.
Zack only tried to leave ShinRa because he became the target of his former employer.
He wasn't bothered by the human experimentation. He never cared about killing people as long as he doesn't know them, as mowing down squad after squad of ShinRa troops -like Cloud was- proves without a shadow of doubt.
He's amoral like that, and I'm disappointed at his wasted potential as character, because someone like him needed to be broken, and broken again, in order to be rebuild into a better version of himself.
And then die.
That's how good tragedies are written.
He needed to be broken again. Nibelheim was the perfect place for that but then this gif happened, because Zack couldn't be bothered to do his job. The part when he asked Sephiroth to explain himself made me seethe. He's killing civillians and torching a whole village and you want to know his motives before stopping him? Another great idea Zack, I'm sure Sephiroth had perfectly good reasons to do what he did, let's listen to him and talk, that will make his sanity return and everything will be ok again! Like a Steven Universe episode!
And I guess those charred and stabbed folks don't count since they weren't nearly as important for you.
As it stands, Zack is only a likeable character with a ton of wasted potential. He might be a good guy deep down but without any kind of morals, being nice means nothing. And he never reflects on this so he's just a wasted opportunity.
Zack is actually one of my favorite characters, I wouldn't care about any of this otherwise.
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Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
That's an interesting perspective, because I'm usually always the 'but what about the people behind the masks' person.
I really do think Zack cares about everyone, but he's not as aware of Shinra's dark side as the player, because our screentime is mostly spent protecting people from monsters and terrorist attacks (and not just people he knows, either). When he goes on 'escape from Hojo's lab' missions, it's a dangerous monster, not Ifalna. He goes around doing random favours for everyone he meets. We know who Hojo is, but to Zack he's just a creepy dickish dude who is genuinely helpful, and the people fighting Shinra are Genesis and Hollander, who are homicidal nutcases.
Shinra 'breaks cover' for the first time really at Nibelheim, and that's a big deal...but what to do next is a big question. Leak it? To who, Shinra controls the press. Fight Shinra's military? That's your well meaning friends you're killing, who will think you're just another Genesis. Run? To where?
I do think the giant army of Shinra troops was a mistake. And if you're killing them, why spare Cissnei?
In terms of who we wanted him to be, Zack is supposed to be something different from Cloud, unbreakable instead of shattered, keeping things together instead of a mental wreck, sociable instead of reserved, skilled and strong instead of weak and hesitant (I know that's not actually true but in Cloud's mind). If we set up Cloud's idol as a paper tiger, we lose a lot of that.
I really do think Zack cares about everyone, but he's not as aware of Shinra's dark side as the player, because our screentime is mostly spent protecting people from monsters and terrorist attacks (and not just people he knows, either). When he goes on 'escape from Hojo's lab' missions, it's a dangerous monster, not Ifalna. He goes around doing random favours for everyone he meets. We know who Hojo is, but to Zack he's just a creepy dickish dude who is genuinely helpful, and the people fighting Shinra are Genesis and Hollander, who are homicidal nutcases.
Shinra 'breaks cover' for the first time really at Nibelheim, and that's a big deal...but what to do next is a big question. Leak it? To who, Shinra controls the press. Fight Shinra's military? That's your well meaning friends you're killing, who will think you're just another Genesis. Run? To where?
I do think the giant army of Shinra troops was a mistake. And if you're killing them, why spare Cissnei?
In terms of who we wanted him to be, Zack is supposed to be something different from Cloud, unbreakable instead of shattered, keeping things together instead of a mental wreck, sociable instead of reserved, skilled and strong instead of weak and hesitant (I know that's not actually true but in Cloud's mind). If we set up Cloud's idol as a paper tiger, we lose a lot of that.
Kuja9001
Ooooh Salty!
- AKA
- roxas9001, Krat0s9001, DarkSlayerZero
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Why would he do that? As far as Zack is concerned, nothing is really a problem.
As I said, he simply refused to do his job, didn't contact HQ about his superior's erratic behavior and never contemplated any course of action. He simply watched and waited until all hell broke loose.
He did jack shit because he didn't feel like it.
He warns her to not fight him, and shortly after she lies to Tseng and gives Zack her damn bike to help him escape. That's why he spares her, because she still favors him. She's useful to him and they used to be friends, so I guess that counts too.
I enjoy irony so this is not a problem for me. Cloud admired Sephiroth too, and look what happened.
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Is Zack Cloud's idol? Does he ever say he wants to be Zack in the same way he wants to be Sephiroth? Post mako-coma, he adopts a number of elements of Zack's persona, but it doesn't logically follow from that he must have idolised Zack. Zack just happened to be the person he knew best, and someone who, until the very end, was a strong and capable survivor.
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
In all honesty, I think Square Enix was more concerned with establishing a likable/traditional hero as opposed to one that has a super complex inner world. I think the hypocrisy this creates with this character was not really intended (or maybe just something they really didn't think that hard about).
Crisis Core in general seems to have a lot that it wants to do for its small space. I think a more grounded story that's more dialed back could have given Zack more room to be more than the FF7 universe's version of Goku.
Crisis Core in general seems to have a lot that it wants to do for its small space. I think a more grounded story that's more dialed back could have given Zack more room to be more than the FF7 universe's version of Goku.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Agree. That was their intention but it's like they never realized how it could come across. It doesn't take a genius to see that a story about corporate deceitfulness and betrayal wasn't the best setting for that particular type of character if they didn't want to get into complex themes.
So it simply looks half-assed.
Contractual obligations, man. They're a pain in the ass.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
It's more that Zack is a representation of what Cloud aspired to be.
I feel like it was much earlier than that. Banora and the cover-ups, the experiments on Angeal and Genesis, etc. And unlike most people being fed Shin-Ra's propaganda, Zack was able to actually meet some Wutai warriors and hear straight from them why they weren't cooperating with the company.
If Shin-Ra's cover wasn't broken for Zack until Nibelheim (even after Sephiroth himself referenced the danger in considering resigning), he was just being willfully ignorant.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
He doesn't know that's about to happen, it still seems like Sephy is just a close friend having a breakdown. What's HQ going to do if he calls it in?
She attacks him first, though. In BC, that's a straight up bossfight. If he's willing to kill the troopers, why does the more dangerous hunter get a free pass?
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I would call this a chronic problem with the Compilation in general. If not most of Nomura, Kitase and Nojima's stuff in the FF franchise. They always have crazy big ideas about what they want to do with their plots and the medium of a video game never feels big enough to fit their ideas into. I think it's a big reason FF7 has so much spin-off material to begin with.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
We will never know because Zack didn't care enough about his "friend" to report anything to HQ. His laziness regarding paperwork is canon and everything.
In real life, reporting using the proper channels makes people get phych evaluations and shit.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
He fancies her, that's why.
My problem with Zack isn't so much the character himself but rather how he's somehow singlehandedly responsible for 90% of the lore in FF7. Aerith's hair ribbon? Aerith selling flowes? Tifa's bar? Yuffie becoming a skilled thief? You can thank Zack for all of the above, and more. I'm sure Nojima and co. didn't mean it to be anything more than just some "remember this, remember that" moments but they actually do kind of detract from the lore and characters, especially with Yuffie, who originally trained herself to become a master materia thief but in Crisis Core it was all Zack lol.
As a character he's okay, he's not the deepest FF protagonist but he's likeable enough I guess. Crisis Core had many, MANY other problems besides Zack anyway.
As a character he's okay, he's not the deepest FF protagonist but he's likeable enough I guess. Crisis Core had many, MANY other problems besides Zack anyway.