Crisis Core....Am I supposed to hate Zack?

[ForceStealer]

Yeah, exactly. He's a kid. Take one look at the Cactuar animation and tell me you still take SOLDIER as seriously as you did in FFVII.

Oh come on. Really? It's just supposed to be funny. I think you're taking that a little too seriously.

 

[Sigbru]

I always had the impression SOLDIER's were mostly super powered mooks. Anyone really skillful went to the Turks

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yeah, exactly. He's a kid. Take one look at the Cactuar animation and tell me you still take SOLDIER as seriously as you did in FFVII.

Yes, exactly. He IS a kid, an ambitious, ingenuous, fun-loving friendly kid who wants to be a hero and thinks the way to do it is to become a soldier. The whole point about Crisis Core is Zack's growing disillusionment and growing maturity, the tragedy of dedicating his life to a worthless cause, and then dying just as he manages to break free. The most poignant lines in the whole game are at Nibelheim when he says something to Cloud along the lines of "I never thought about these things for myself. Who's the enemy? Why are we fighting? I never bothered my head with that stuff." You have the set the Cactuar animation off against that.

 

[ForceStealer]

Turks could potentially have more natural skill, given that they're not augmented at all. The requirements for being a SOLDIER were primarily a strong sense of self. Being strong probably helped though

But the 3rd Class SOLDIER's in VII didn't even make me blink. The 2nd and 1sts could with Sword of Doom though. But even then the only time Sword of Doom was a big threat was during the escape from Junon when my party is forced to consist of Yuffie and Cait Sith.

 

[Ite]

Yes, exactly. He IS a kid, an ambitious, ingenuous, fun-loving friendly kid who wants to be a hero and thinks the way to do it is to become a soldier.

So he's that kid in Kalm who is running back and forth 'training' for SOLDIER. I understand that Zack is the same as 90% of the people who try out for SOLDIER with big dreams and green faces, but I think what bothers me is that he got in.

Let's imagine that SOLDIER is the same as the Navy Seals. I don't think someone who has undergone that kind of military training still bounces around when he gets orders, or talks back to his superiors. In CC, people just roll their eyes at him. It's like they were going for the "damnit maverick if you weren't so damn good..." shtick, except Zack isn't a maverick he's a third class, completely replaceable. It makes his cartoon mischief a mockery of the entire SOLDIER program.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

So he's that kid in Kalm who is running back and forth 'training' for SOLDIER. I understand that Zack is the same as 90% of the people who try out for SOLDIER with big dreams and green faces, but I think what bothers me is that he got in.

Let's imagine that SOLDIER is the same as the Navy Seals. I don't think someone who has undergone that kind of military training still bounces around when he gets orders, or talks back to his superiors. In CC, people just roll their eyes at him. It's like they were going for the "damnit maverick if you weren't so damn good..." shtick, except Zack isn't a maverick he's a third class, completely replaceable. It makes his cartoon mischief a mockery of the entire SOLDIER program.

It's Zack's strong sense of self that likely allowed him to adapt so well to the process. This is NOTHING like the Navy SEALS. You're part of a scientific experiment to augment your own skills. Again, it's like saying Genesis should have been kicked out of SOLDIER for carrying around his book of poetry with him everywhere he goes, and quoting lines from it at every available moment. Zack's a HELL of a warrior, so why does it matter what his attitude's like at first, because he learns and he's good at what really matters. There's a reason Zack's sent alongside Sephiroth to Nibelhiem, and sent on all the missions he is.

Also.... He's not a third class.... He's a FIRST Class. One of the VERY few who's as capable as he is, which is WHY he's rocking around with Angeal in the game. The military doesn't have to turn everyone into a combat absorbed douche. That's what Deepground did, and just look how well THAT turned out for ShinRa as a viable military force.

Yes. He's a kid at the beginning of the game, just ready to work to be the best SOLDIER he possibly can, and he's got the talent to be superb. You're STILL completely missing or blatanly ignoring the evolution of his character. Once he finally focuses and stops blindly following orders, and being glamoured by the very prospect of being in SOLDIER, he realizes that he doesn't know what he's fighting for, why, or if he's been on the wrong side the whole time.

Plus - After his visual change and he's forced to kill his own mentor (Angeal), he's not a goof off at all. You're VASTLY over exaggerating his cartoonishness in the entire story with comparisons to some of the early game events and explicitly less serious battle animations.


X

 

[Dana Scully]

Zack clearly demonstrates in CC that he's willing and ready to work his ass off. A work ethic like that would easily power him through Third Class and make people - like Angeal - take notice. Just because he's likeable and has a sense of humour doesn't negate that he's trying his damned hardest to be the very best, which is something I think any First Class SOLDIER (or any Navy SEAL officer) would respect.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Yes, exactly. He IS a kid, an ambitious, ingenuous, fun-loving friendly kid who wants to be a hero and thinks the way to do it is to become a soldier.

So he's that kid in Kalm who is running back and forth 'training' for SOLDIER. I understand that Zack is the same as 90% of the people who try out for SOLDIER with big dreams and green faces, but I think what bothers me is that he got in.

Let's imagine that SOLDIER is the same as the Navy Seals. I don't think someone who has undergone that kind of military training still bounces around when he gets orders, or talks back to his superiors. In CC, people just roll their eyes at him.

If we're going by your standards of who should be in SOLDIER, Sephiroth, Angeal and Genesis shouldn't be in SOLDIER either. In Crisis Core, Sephiroth blatantly goes against orders when he says that he will fail to kill Genesis and Angeal because they are his best friends. Angeal has a sense of honor that both Sephiroth, Genesis and Zack roll their eyes at at least once. I don't think I need to tell you what Sephiroth and Angeal think about Genesis's constant reciting of LOVELESS. So yes, Zack has his quirks, but so do all the other SOLDIER 1st Classes. Zack fits right in.

It's like they were going for the "damnit maverick if you weren't so damn good..." shtick, except Zack isn't a maverick he's a third class, completely replaceable. It makes his cartoon mischief a mockery of the entire SOLDIER program.

This in not an accurate portrayal of Zack's position in SOLDIER. At the beginning of Crisis Core, Zack is a SOLDIER 2nd Class at the age of 15/16. That is impressive, especially when you take into account that Zack left Gongaga to become a SOLDIER when he was 12/13. A year later, he makes 1st Class at the age of 16/17. At this time, the only other 1st Class who is still working for Shin-Ra is Sephiroth. As he is the only 1st Class in SOLDIER at the time, I'd say he's more of a maverick then anything else.

I understand that Zack is the same as 90% of the people who try out for SOLDIER with big dreams and green faces,

The game makes a huge deal about how the qualifications for SOLDIER have entirely to do with having an independent mentality. If you do not have a sense of self, you aren't getting in because you'll lose yourself to mako poisoning and Jenova's influence. In other words, your metal strength is more important then your physical strength. Keep in mind that Cloud, in fact, is part of the same 90% of people that Zack is, only he doesn't have Zack's sense of individuality so he doesn't get in.

The key point of Zack's character that everybody around him, Tseng, Genesis, Angeal, Lazard, Sephiroth, Aerith, Cloud, notice is that he is a one-of-a-kind guy and that there will never be another guy like him.

 

[Wiegraf]

except Zack isn't a maverick he's a third class, completely replaceable. It makes his cartoon mischief a mockery of the entire SOLDIER program.

Zack was NEVER third class in Crisis Core though.

 

[ElusiveFinalFantasy]

Laughs!!! *Get’s up from computer desk and does a little dance*

I have yet to meet someone who didn’t like Zack from the absolute beginning! I mean, I am kind of neutral about Zack. He isn’t my absolute favorite, but I don’t hate him either. I just always thought he was just one of those charismatic characters that everyone adores, but to meet someone (More or less) that finds Zack irritating…just made my day. I am not making fun of you, just saying that it was the best part of my day.

I don’t think it’s that he’s a “Braindead jock” or anything of that sort. I just think he has a very romanticized view of SOLDIER, and the company he is working for. His ultimate goal is to be a hero, and it kind of blind-sided him to the atrocities…I am not sure if that is too strong of a word, but I’ll use it for lack of a better word…that happened within the walls of the company he worked for. He was indeed a child, and acted and thought like a child ((I feel like I am quoting the Bible right now)), and really just only saw the world with child-like wonder.

Also, he had Angeal as a mentor. That could have shaped his opinion of Shinra as well, in the sense that Angeal was portrayed as a very honorable guy (not saying that he wasn’t, just saying for rhetoric sake here.). He had strong opinions of what a true hero was, and he expressed them to Zack, and through that he could have thought that if Angeal thought Shinra was a good place…then it must be.

However, when Genesis rebelled against Shinra, and Angeal more or less went with him, it hit Zack very hard, and I think that was the turning point of his…child-like demeanor. After that I think that he started to realize something was not right, but carried on working with Shinra because he didn’t have all the facts. As far as he knew, and as far as anyone who knew anything let on, Angeal and Genesis just went mad, and abandoned their position and honor as SOLDIER.

As sad as it sounds, and little cold-hearted, I think a lot of his earlier attitude was because life in an army hadn’t hit him yet. He was shielded a lot in the hardships of events that soldiers experience being in an army. Even after all the things he experienced being in SOLDIER, he remained optimistic because that is apart of who he is. He wasn’t going to let what happened to him break him and destroy who he was.

It actually kind of reminds me of the song, “Hero of War” by Rise Against, how the young soldier had a romanticized view of being a soldier, and then as the song progresses he realizes that it isn’t “just metals, and scars,” but it is his job, and his pride as a soldier that keeps him going. Also reminds me of what the soldiers thought about WWI until after they experienced war and drunk themselves to death, and nearly went mad (if they did not). All in all, I think it was because he was a child more or less.

I think it’s a combination of things that makes Zack who he is, early in the game, and I have only mentioned a few. Though, I must say, thanks for putting that out there, Octorawk. I really do mean it when I say your post was the best part of my night. It was a fresh new opinion I had yet to hear of. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Octo]

Wow, Im glad to have been of service

I couldn't get used to the difference between Zack in FFVII (sensible, level headed nice guy) with Zack in CC (gung-ho, cowabunga meathead) That and I'm very suspicious of anyone who sets out to be 'an Hero'

Oh and it also reminded me of the total let down I felt when Sonic the Hedgehog started talking...I digress!

Anyway I've got to go shopping for tiles now, but I shall return!

 

[Rostum]

I personally liked Zach throughout Crisis Core. He had aspects that I admire in people - he was very driven, kind, proud and positive. He doesn't let things get him down easily, no matter how much crap the game threw at him. You also have to love yourself quite a bit to succeed in life, so I can forgive those aspects of him.

I found myself starting to get attached to him by the end of the game, which made the ended something I never anticipated.

 

[Tenyoku]

I absolutely loved Zack in CC. He believed so much in what he did, he trusted Angeal so much - and even when he saw Angeal (maybe) break his own code of being a SOLDIER, Zack didn't retreat in disgrace.
Even from FFVII it seemed he was special - he saved a (not so) catatonic Cloud (like the one from CC), so he must have valued friendship A LOT.
But in CC - he IS truly a hero.

 

[Masamune]

Well, if he's so great, how come he's *dead?*

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^If Aerith's so great, how come she's *dead?*

 

[Elisa Maza]

They are the tragic characters, guys. People who are very good, but left early. That's the point.

 

[Tenyoku]

Well, if he's so great, how come he's *dead?*

Uhm. It's called tragedy (definition 1.a - many people have a wrong definition of it in their heads)... and it's about catharsis (definition 2) for the player.

There's no rule in a tragedy that if someone is the best at something good/nice he will survive. Or that he will be king. Quite the reverse.

As i view CC, the fatal flaw in Zack's way of being was exactly that he was so great - trying to save Cloud, trying to save Genesis, trying to save Angeal, trying to be with Arith despite being constantly watched, trying to get Sephiroth back on the sane track, heck, trying to make EVERYTHING right (I've probaly missed some other stuff).

If he wasn't a hero he wouldn't try anything. Just get on with the orders, drink booze with Kunsel after missions, kill Cloud for trying to interfere with Sephiroth at Nibelheim. Oooh... alternative history.

 

[Masamune]

^^If Aerith's so great, how come she's *dead?*

They are the tragic characters, guys. People who are very good, but left early. That's the point.

Uhm. It's called tragedy (definition 1.a - many people have a wrong definition of it in their heads)... and it's about catharsis (definition 2) for the player.

There's no rule in a tragedy that if someone is the best at something good/nice he will survive. Or that he will be king. Quite the reverse.

As i view CC, the fatal flaw in Zack's way of being was exactly that he was so great - trying to save Cloud, trying to save Genesis, trying to save Angeal, trying to be with Arith despite being constantly watched, trying to get Sephiroth back on the sane track, heck, trying to make EVERYTHING right (I've probaly missed some other stuff).

If he wasn't a hero he wouldn't try anything. Just get on with the orders, drink booze with Kunsel after missions, kill Cloud for trying to interfere with Sephiroth at Nibelheim. Oooh... alternative history.

DERP.

 

[Elisa Maza]

NO U.

 

[obama5493]

But I could never hate Yuffie D:

I don't see how you can hate Zack in the beginning. He's a sweet kid, with big dreams. He's still young, and like Angeal called him, restless. He develops plenty throughout the story, but I never found him irritating before that.

 

[Dashell]

Tiff, quit signing up with dupes and repeating yourself

 

[Celes Chere]

LOL WTF.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If he wasn't a hero he wouldn't try anything. Just get on with the orders, drink booze with Kunsel after missions, kill Cloud for trying to interfere with Sephiroth at Nibelheim. Oooh... alternative history.

One day I'm going to write a fic where Zack is recruited by the Turks instead of SOLDIER and how it all goes downhill for him from there. Not sure he's smart enough for the Turks, though....

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^If Zack was a Turk... well, the Turks would either get nothing done or they would know everything about everybody because of how easily Zack connects to people. But yeah... not good.

 

[Scias]

Well, if he's so great, how come he's *dead?*

^^If Aerith's so great, how come she's *dead?*

They're too pure and good for this corrupt, dark and sinner world Y_Y

And hey, after the sausagefest of emo, angst, brooding and gloom that were DoC and AC/ACC, Zack is really refreshing. How can somebody hate that guy?