DCFFVII Research Thread

[Shademp]

I think I'm safe at this stage from the madness of "arbitrary aesthetic perfection mode". Now is the phase of strategizing, exploring and memorizing which is one of my favorite parts of the Dirge process. All I have to accomplish is paving the way with some decent Extra Mission records so that other people have something to compete against and compare with. Now is the time when it's easiest and most rewarding to play the missions.

With All S Ranks I had a tendency to get obsessed with the gameplay "looking good" and not just "being good". All S Ranks was complicated because you are gauged in over a dozen categories and I felt that I was making something unique that nobody else will ever make again. I am still convinced that nobody ever again will do All S Ranks in the original JP version of Dirge. Ergo why my internalized pressure was stronger: I wanted the final videos to be not just an achievement but AN EVENT. In some recordings I achieved that and in others I very much did not.

In contrast, every video I create for the Extra Missions is by design meant to become obsolete. It may take a few years before some records are challenged solely because of Dirge's lack of popularity (and the limited portion of Dirge fans who will invest in a capture card) but half the purpose of every record I get is that someday it WILL be beaten. I can be as ugly in my gameplay as I want, so long as it's a decently competitive time.

I do not think I am built to speedrun the same mission for days on end or to perform hour-long speedruns though. The process of getting 00:40 in EM03 was very exhausting and took me a couple of hours. Admittedly the first two hours or so were spent testing out alternate strategies before realizing that the initial plan was the most ideal all along. But given that I struggle with patience and delayed gratification, I think I would suffer mentally if I spent days on trying to get a new, hardcore world record in a mission.

Ultimately I'm still more of a researcher and explorer than I am a speedrunner. But they don't call me the God of Dirge for nothing!

 

[ultima786]

I think I'm safe at this stage from the madness of "arbitrary aesthetic perfection mode". Now is the phase of strategizing, exploring and memorizing which is one of my favorite parts of the Dirge process. All I have to accomplish is paving the way with some decent Extra Mission records so that other people have something to compete against and compare with. Now is the time when it's easiest and most rewarding to play the missions.

With All S Ranks I had a tendency to get obsessed with the gameplay "looking good" and not just "being good". All S Ranks was complicated because you are gauged in over a dozen categories and I felt that I was making something unique that nobody else will ever make again. I am still convinced that nobody ever again will do All S Ranks in the original JP version of Dirge. Ergo why my internalized pressure was stronger: I wanted the final videos to be not just an achievement but AN EVENT. In some recordings I achieved that and in others I very much did not.

In contrast, every video I create for the Extra Missions is by design meant to become obsolete. It may take a few years before some records are challenged solely because of Dirge's lack of popularity (and the limited portion of Dirge fans who will invest in a capture card) but half the purpose of every record I get is that someday it WILL be beaten. I can be as ugly in my gameplay as I want, so long as it's a decently competitive time.

I do not think I am built to speedrun the same mission for days on end or to perform hour-long speedruns though. The process of getting 00:40 in EM03 was very exhausting and took me a couple of hours. Admittedly the first two hours or so were spent testing out alternate strategies before realizing that the initial plan was the most ideal all along. But given that I struggle with patience and delayed gratification, I think I would suffer mentally if I spent days on trying to get a new, hardcore world record in a mission.

Ultimately I'm still more of a researcher and explorer than I am a speedrunner. But they don't call me the God of Dirge for nothing!

Your dedication to DoC is so interesting. You seemed to have trouble with the story elements of Remake ... how do you handle the insanity of DoC? Lol

 

[Odysseus]

how do you handle the insanity of DoC?

Okay, I'm not Shademp, and I like the Remake story mostly, but I have been giving some thought to why DoC doesn't bother me the way Crisis Core does because of all the people worried now that Weiss is in the remake. I think it's because the events of Dirge have almost zero bearing on anything in the original game, it is very stand alone in comparison to CC and BC, and even AC. Nothing that happens in Dirge really matters at all outside of its own context, I don't have to act like Gackt was secretly at Niblehiem all along, or that Kalm is inhabited by Shinra employees as a cover-up, or any other number of dumb retcons. Deepground is a laughable concept that stretches the imagination, the Tsviets seem like bad OCs that belong in a totally different universe, but I kinda love that. It's all trying so hard to be cool that it blows up in its own face and becomes really funny instead. It has that big Sonic Adventure 2/ Kingdom Hearts energy where it's trying to be deep and complicated but it all comes off as so cheesy, I find it really endearing. "There was a secret undrground army the whole time" sure okay, that's fine lol, doesn't matter to the original plot anyway. It does retcon why Hojo injects himself with Jenova cells, but this cutscene is the most amazing thing I've seen in my whole life so I don't care

(It'll start at the appropriate one lol)
My one issue with the plot is that it needlessly overcomplicates Lucrecia's relationship with Vincent by introducing Grimoire into the equation, and makes her motivation for getting with Hojo pretty strange. I know they were trying to make her more sympathetic, but it ended up just making her annoying and incompetent to me.

 

[cold_spirit]

I've got a bit of a tangent on Dirge of Cerberus and Crisis Core.

For me, Dirge of Cerberus's most interesting contribution to the lore is Omega. I like how Omega expands the "cycle of souls" concept to the whole universe. It's fitting and reminiscent of Jenova's journey to the planet, which is fun to theorize about. Crisis Core's biggest contribution is Loveless. I like the concept of an unfinished play driving people mad. Like, the mystery is so intriguing that readers become obsessive and eventually self-destructive. However, the execution is... unendearing to say the least. I will admit though, @Obsidian Fire's posts on Loveless in other threads have helped me appreciate it a lot more. I like that the final chapter, penned by Genesis and stamped by the lifestream, is about protecting the planet through sacrifice. It's reminiscent of the Cetra's way of life and reinforces the idea that oneness with the planet is the true "promised land".

Anyway, please post more speed records. I quite enjoy them.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It's definetly interesting how different people read different parts of the Compilation and react to it. Although I do think part of that depends *a lot* on when someone gets into FFVII.

FFVII has always had CC and DoC in it for me. They just... never were not a part of the story of FFVII. So FFVII was always inherently goofy to some extent for me. And that... matched up just fine with FFVIII and FFX who are also by the same group of storytellers. Having everything make sense or be serious was never something FFVII felt like it was trying to do.

 

[cold_spirit]

I first played FFVII in 2005, then found out about Advent Children a few months later. So I feel fortunate to have this pre-Compilation experience, but at the same time was close enough to the Compilation to make it feel like one continuous experience.

I remember thinking the Compilation was so clever back when I only knew the title and premise each entry. It seemed like the perfect compliment to the original game. AC continued the story with Cloud, BC would develop the Turks and the original Avalanche, CC starred Zack and involved the Wutai War, and DC would star Vincent, an optional character in the original game, and heavily feature Yuffie and Cait Sith, the two other under utilized party members. Every lesser developed aspect of the original game was getting its chance to shine.

Bringing this back to Dirge, I was so excited to play as Vincent back then. And that's something that hasn't really changed in 16 years. I'm STILL excited to play as Vincent. I find Dirge's mechanics to be really interesting. I like that you have to choose between leveling up or receiving gil at the end of each mission. I like the archaic objectives the game gives you. I love the gun customization. I still debate with myself whether I should equip Ultima Weapon with the best normal or long barrel, and I don't even have a way to play the game.

 

[Shademp]

Speedrun of Extra Mission #04, Vincent the Mage

After being stuck at 06:18 and then 06:17 for much of the day I was losing hope. Then all of a sudden I got this massive improvement of 41 seconds, leading to a new record of 05:36!

PS2: SCPH-50000 | Game: SLPM-66629

Sight Support: Semi-Automatic

Equipment

W1: Gigant Hydra + Nova L Barrel + Sniper Scope + Manasoul + Fire Materia (Fire Lv1)​

W2: Gigant Hydra + Nova L Barrel + Materia Floater + Manasoul + Fire Materia (Fire Lv2)​

W3: Gigant Hydra + Nova L Barrel + Materia Floater Gamma + Manasoul + Fire Materia (Fire Lv3)​

The gun frame and barrel are specifically chosen to max out my long-range stat. If an enemy is out of range then auto-aim will not lock onto the target. Using fully Automatic sight support ruined my gameplay too often so Semi-Automatic was a good balance between manual- and automatic aim. As always there are still cases where you struggle against the Semi-Automatic lock-on but it's more realistic for this stage than always being on Manual.

In EM04 you are likely to run out of MP numerous times even with Manasoul equipped. Fire Lv1 requires the least amount of MP to be used but it's explosion radius is pretty small, so a balance has to be struck where sometimes it's better to use Fire Lv2 or even Fire Lv3 for more high-impact, large-radius action. The Shrikes (jetpack DG soldiers) will not die from a Fire Lv1 shot if you have an active killchain of zero, so having Fire Lv2 available to one-shot the Shrikes regardless of your killchain is a reassuring thing.

Enemies spawn in a semi-random pattern. There is variance in how long it might take for an enemy of a certain "phase" to appear or even if the game decides to spawn a SOLDIER or a Crimson Hound. The key to completing this mission quickly is thus knowing where the enemy-spawning hot spots are during each phase of the challenge. It was only by being more aware of these patterns that I was able to get a time below 6 minutes.

There are intervals of inevitable pauses where no enemies will spawn for a while, like after the 3rd kill or after the 18th kill. But I do not have all of the patterns and phases fully mapped out in my head, which is why a lot of time is still spent running around aimlessly even though there are definitely enemies "somewhere". I am confident that a time below 5 minutes can be achieved, we just need to gain a bit more knowledge about EM04.

The Dual Horns spawn in a predictable fashion as the mission progress.

1st Dual Horn - Shows up in the north when 20 enemies are gone.​

2nd Dual Horn - Appears in the far south when 50 enemies have been destroyed.​

3rd Dual Horn - Spawns near the map's center when 75 targets have been eradicated.​

Every mission that involves defeating 100 targets can feel overwhelming and tedious. I definitely think that the missions would scare off fewer players if the number of targets had been decreased to 80 or 70. Thankfully some of that initial friction can be more easily overcome as we learn more about how to beat this mission faster and faster.

 

[Shademp]

@ultima786

how do you handle the insanity of DoC? Lol

What Odysseus said does apply to me as well.

Far as lore and cutscenes go, I enjoy Dirge of Cerberus the way one might enjoy the Adam West Batman as this odd yet endearing side-universe. Any wishes I might once have had that DoC was a masterpiece that could stand proudly alongside the original FF7 are long gone. In its place is a research obsession of near perfect exclusivity since nobody else is looking into the game's contents the way that I do. It's like my own Cave of Wonders and there are always more treasures to discover.

FFVII Remake is by leaps and bounds better than Dirge of Cerberus. There were dozens of moments while playing FFVIIR when I was so happy that this game was distinctly NOT Dirge of Cerberus, because the things I wished from a remake of the original game were indeed far removed from the DoC style. No matter how many thousands of hours I spend on Dirge I will never stop being harshly critical of it. It's just that my obsession/hobby doesn't care about the title's actual quality in order to exist.

But as is the nature of a hobby, a person can infuse passion into an object and thus create entertainment. That's what happened with my All S Ranks run and now with my Extra Missions ventures: I am infusing my own passion and creating enjoyment in the game in a way that the game is not well-designed enough to do on its own. Yet it's not ALL smoke and mirrors because clearly there is a lot of fun to be had in the gameplay no matter whether some of the depth is intended or not.

Context really is key for your enjoyment of a franchise and its parts. It just so happens that my context with FFVIIR is different in such a way that I can't play it anymore even if I try. Looking forward to seeing other people enjoy the Yuffie DLC though.

 

[Clement Rage]

*continues being sad*

I don't think there's anything actually wrong with Dirge. None of the logistics in ff7 have ever made any sense, it's way too late to suddenly start caring now.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Odysseus
That is the greatest post in this thread.

EDIT: And you deleted it between the time I started typing this post and the time I submitted it. =(

 

[Odysseus]

I was worried people thought it was stupid ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Fuck them, who cares >=/

 

[Odysseus]

My self-conscious self does lol.

Okay fine have it your way;

*continues being sad*

I don't think there's anything actually wrong with Dirge. None of the logistics in ff7 have ever made any sense, it's way too late to suddenly start caring now.

I think the problem for a lot of people is that, despite it's zaniness at times, the original game is comparatively more mature than Dirge is. Dirge is not a game with much ambition, it isn't really trying to "say" anything the way the original was, it's just a cheesy, edgy game trying to appeal to scene kids because it's 2006 and we're a Teen girl who just got off watching Foamy the squirrel on NewGrounds.com com while signing a bring back Invader Zim petition wearing a Jack Skeleton Hoodie And Happy Tree Friends tube socks Purchased from Hot Topic During an Emily the Strange buy 1 get 1 50 percent off sale Where she discovered Serenity Rose from Slave Labor graphics Comics While her over baring but loving father restricts her from going to the My Chemical Romance slash Limp Bizkit concert With a 5 years older than her boyfriend That constantly IM’s unsourced Stolen Pom And Zi comic art Over 56K Modem American Online trial discs On myspace dot com with a top 8 consisting of Tim Burton, Jack Sparrow, Eminem, Jesus Christ and whatever angsty band is the hip new thing in Disney Adventures Magazine And spends all day filling out What Kingdom Hearts Character are you quizzes Only to complain she didn’t get Riku and Is unable to watch the 2006 MTV Music Awards Because her dead beat older brother is always Hogging the living room TV Playing Tony Hawks Underground on his Halo edition Transparent green Xbox Using a 3rd party Mad Kats air flow controller With a busted analog stick constantly learning to the right Making anti-Semitic remarks on how Eric stole his wicked McTwist over the helicopter in Hawaii footage and Vincent Valentine is the sexiest mother fucker to ever walk this god damned Earth. It has all of the energy of that copypasta I just stole and that's why I love it. it doesn't try to be more than it is, it doesn't try to have some half-hearted "deep" message the way Crisis Core does. I get to play as a silly vampire man and shoot a Karate pants asshole possessed by the digital brain ghost of a crazy scientist and J-Rock is blaring and it's great. Here is a picture that exists:

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Here is a picture that exists

XD

10/10

Ody, your posts crack me up, dude. You got to believe in you a little more.

 

[Clement Rage]

*still being sad*

I also caught your post before it was deleted. Eh, nothing weird there.

I don't see the distinction, though. FF7 doesn't strike me as being overly mature, it's just about whether the fans decide to be forgiving or not.

 

[Odysseus]

The original game has environmentalist themes, and can serve as a critique of uncontrolled industrialism and capitalism. There's also the stuff about unexpected loss and dealing with it, having self-worth and actualization, and the ultimate question of if humanity is good for the planet or not. FF7 isn't the most mature game to ever exist, but there's a lot to dig in to there. I don't think I can say the same about Dirge, personally, but I also don't really think that's to the game's detriment.

 

[Shademp]

The handshake between Nomura and Gackt make me think of the destiny-altering handshakes in the Command & Conquer series. There's just something so era-defining about it. Pretty sure that any time traveller having a list of "massive spacetime hot spots" will have that late-2005 moment as one of the few places/moments in the year 2005 they are able to travel to. XD

...Is that a white wing on Nomura's sleeve? HOLY SHIT THE DEEP MEANINGS OH MY GERD /jk


Making great progression with Extra Mission #11, Collector's Mind. Will continue playing it tomorrow and hopefully confirm that what I discovered today on emulator is true on console as well.

The biggest and most difficult timesave to pull off in the mission is to grab this medal without falling down to the bottom.



When you grab the medal an invisible wall spawns behind you, making it impossible to jump straight back to the platform. Instead you have to traverse some stairs to get all the way back up again. This almost seems like an intentional bad joke by the developers. "LOL you thought you could jump right back in this open space well GUESS AGAIN"

I discovered that it IS possible to get the medal without the invisible wall appearing, thus letting you get back to the platform with a mid-air jump. Couldn't do it consistently on console but with the miracle of save states I found that the solution was deceptively simple. There is a "wall trigger"/"loading zone" that, when touched, will activate the invisible wall and block access back to the platform.



Poorly represented in the edit above due to lack of depth, but the medal exists riiiiiight on the edge of that wall trigger. Doesn't matter what angle you approach from or how high or low your jump is: What matters is that if you jump too far out you can't come back.

With this knowledge I was able to consistently perform the trick on emulator, grabbing the medal and still getting right back on the platform. It's a very precise "grab-and-jump-back" maneuver, with not many pixels to spare before you accidentally touch the loading zone, and the best plan is to make the returning mid-air jump earlier than what feels right. You'll have better odds of getting an instant second chance at the jump that way and you can pin down the precision with minimal time loss.

While Collector's Mind is heavily derived from its multiplayer-counterpart, where you collected Mako Capsules instead of medals, the capsule/medal locations do not all match up. This tricky mid-air medal does not have a corresponding capsule in the original online mission.

Is the cumbersome loading zone in this medal's position a remnant of designs from the online mode or is it an intentional moment of the developers having a laugh at the player's expense? Either scenario seems reasonable.


I am very happy this loading zone was easy and not in the same category as other loading zones that the speedrunning community still don't understand. In the Cait Sith segment, Ch4-2, there is a ladder that the player can skip so long as an invisible wall decides NOT to appear. 50% of the time it's there, 50% of the time it's not and sometimes the player initially face an invisible wall and then the wall disappears while Cait Sith is falling. The community will rejoice if a guaranteed method of performing this ladder skip is ever found.

 

[Clement Rage]

Green Aesops are not particularly uncommon in kids media. Sonic SatAm, Captain Planet, etc. nor are evil corporations as villains. I don't hate FF7, obviously (shit, just revealed my true colours again.), but there's nothing special about how it handles any of this.

 

[Shademp]

Couldn't get the god run while also getting the "ledge return" trick with the mid-air medal. But after two days and well over a hundred tries with this mission I make this video upload to show the fruits of my hard work.

Extra Mission #11, Collector's Mind
In-game time of 03:33.

Sight Support: Automatic

W1: Gigant Hydra + Nova L Barrel + [Empty] + Manasoul + Thunder Materia (Thunder Lv1)​

W2: Gigant Hydra + Nova L Barrel + Materia Floater + Manasoul + Thunder Materia (Thunder Lv2)​

W3: Ultima Weapon + Guard N Barrel + [Empty] + Power Booster Gamma + Cerberus Relief Gamma​

The ledge return really is the big bottleneck of this mission. If you can't get the medal by your third jump you definitely lose time compared to just falling down to the bottom and walking up the stairs. So far I can only perform the ledge return, in less than four jumps, in roughly 1 out of 30 runs.

I think I'm correct about where the loading zone is but that doesn't make it easier to achieve the golden timing and precision so that you catch the medal without triggering the invisible wall. Still trying setups to achieve consistency but nothing is helping as of yet. Feeling defeated but I've objectively become really good at this mission.

First-try ledge return would at this point guarantee a sub-03:30 but I think such a record would be possible even without ledge return. With fewer mistakes, more city-dashing and by spending more time scientifically analysing Vincent's movement a runner could dethrone me with a great margin.

 

[Shademp]

Extra Mission #05, Deep Labyrinth
In-game time of 04:18

WARNING: Loud sound at 04:14 in the YT video!

PS2: SCPH-50000 | Game: SLPM-66629

Sight Support: Manual

Equipment

W1: Bayonet Rifle + Guard N Barrel + [Empty Scope] + Manasoul + Power Cross Gamma​

W2: Blast Machine Gun + Guard N Barrel + Materia Floater Gamma + Manasoul + Thunder Materia (Thunder Lv3)​

W3: Ultima Weapon + Nova L Barrel + Materia Floater Gamma + Manasoul + Fire Materia (Fire Lv3)​

A perfect example of how overpowered the Manasoul is and how a series of scary rooms can be reduced to safe, simple choreography. It can be tricky to one-shot certain groups of enemies but some of the biggest time losses can happen from just not remember whether you turn left or right after a given hallway. I still haven't perfectly memorized which parts are followed by a left turn or a right turn.

You know the thing when you walk into a room and you can't remember why you went in there? Because Deep Labyrinth is a series of rooms leading to corridors leading to rooms leading to more corridors leading to more rooms I easily suffer from not remembering where I'm going. I love this mission but I think the nature of the map just lends the mind to being disoriented and forgetting where you are.


Deep Labyrinth is definitely among my top favorite missions. The difficulty curve definitely spikes here for the newcomer and while I was stuck here for a while in my initial playthrough it is a mission that's satisfying to memorize and so satisfying to clear for the first time. Even now, with Manasoul to make the mission super-easy, I love clearing each room and seeing how far I've come since my first time around.

Though this mission currently takes above 4 minutes to speedrun it definitely doesn't feel that long. Something is always happening and you need to react and be prepared. I reckon also the way that the mission is segmented into smaller rooms make it feel like a treat, especially when compared to something like Vincent the Mage which is just one long onslaught of 100 enemies in a huge open area. In Deep Labyrinth you end up defeating 96 targets and it's quite satisfying to do so since so many enemies just line up in a group for you to insta-kill.

My uploaded video is full of mistakes and imperfections. If I had avoided the biggest mistakes I would have definitely gotten a 04:15. But my nerves are getting shaky and don't wish to pressure myself too hard. With perfected movement and possibly some changed strategies I could see the final mission time getting shaved down to below 4 minutes.

My previous record was 04:20 and I mourn the loss of that wonderful meme record. I need to eventually get a time of 04:09 as that would technically be a 03:69 which would be NICE

 

[Shademp]

Speedrun of Extra Mission #08, Lord of the Jungle.
I got really invested in getting a sub-03:00 and it finally happened! Routing this mission was great fun.

Sight Support: Manual

Equipment

W1: Ultima Weapon + Nova L Barrel + Materia Floater + Manasoul + Thunder Materia (Thunder Lv2)​

W2: Ultima Weapon + Nova L Barrel + Materia Floater Gamma + Manasoul + Thunder Materia (Thunder Lv3)​

W3: Ultima Weapon + Nova L Barrel + [Empty] + Manasoul + Thunder Materia (Thunder Lv1)​

The way this mission goes:
The player spawns in G-6 and have to circle the central area until three groups of Guard Hounds have spawned. The first Gargoyle will appear where the third Guard Hound group pop up. The defeated Gargoyle will drop a cardkey which is used to unlock the next area of your choice where the next Gargoyle will be taken down. Each consecutive Gargoyle will have more HP than the last, regardless of the order in which you defeat these flying foes.

Gargoyle #1: 1200 HP
Gargoyle #2: 2200 HP
Gargoyle #3: 3200 HP
Gargoyle #4: 4200 HP
Gargoyle #5: 5200 HP
Gargoyle #6: 6200 HP
Gargoyle #7: 7200 HP

Depending on the area a Gargoyle may be accompanied by Guard Hounds, Crimson Hounds, Bizarre Bugs or Sahagins. Soon as the Gargoyle is defeated the surrounding enemies instantly die as well. There is a glitch however where if you defeat the Gargoyle *before* the ground enemies have spawned, those last enemies will still spawn and roam about indefinitely. The Gargoyle in the westernmost region will only show up when the Sahagin surrounding the hill have been defeated. The Gargoyle in the northeast point, H-4, only appear after you've picked up the Potoin in the area.

One time I got a glitch where I used a cardkey to reach the D-11 area but no enemy, including the Gargoyle, would spawn! I have video proof of this glitch and it would be neat to learn what causes the glitch to happen. Since I had used up my only cardkey there was no way to progress.

When the 7th Gargoyle is defeated "Stage Level 8" is unlocked and you will find the last Gargoyles in the temple ruins at J-6. There are no more EM barriers to unlock with the use of cardkeys but the 7th Gargoyle will drop a cardkey regardless. XD It humors me that the programmers didn't fix the code so this useless cardkey doesn't show up.

Entering the temple will cause nine Gargoyles to appear and each one has 3500 HP. For this reason I make sure to have a killchain high enough to one-shot all the Gargoyles. Damage charts below apply to all Gargoyles that show up in the mission.

Spoiler: Gargoyle damage charts

Thunder Lv1 + Manasoul
0-chain: 612 dmg
1-chain: 792 dmg
2-chain: 972 dmg
3-chain: 1152 dmg
4-chain: 1333 dmg
5-chain: 1813 dmg
6-chain: 2414 dmg
7-chain: 3014 dmg
8-chain: 3615 dmg
9-chain: 4215 dmg
10-chain: 4816 dmg
11-chain: 5416 dmg
12-chain: 6017 dmg
13-chain: 6617 dmg
14-chain: 7218 dmg

Thunder Lv2 + Manasoul
0-chain: 1469 dmg
1-chain: 1901 dmg
2-chain: 2333 dmg
3-chain: 2765 dmg
4-chain: 3197 dmg
5-chain: 4350 dmg
6-chain: 5790 dmg
7-chain: 7231 dmg

Thunder Lv3 + Manasoul
0-chain: 2446 dmg
1-chain: 3166 dmg
2-chain: 3885 dmg
3-chain: 4605 dmg
4-chain: 5324 dmg
5-chain: 7243 dmg

While the mission route might change in the future this is the path I chose as it seemed the most efficient for me.



You are essentially presented with three choices at the beginning: Either run around clockwise, anti-clockwise or a mix of both. Going south and then changing direction to an anti-clockwise route seemed to actually be the faster way of triggering the first Gargoyle, with the sacrifice that the rest of the mission route became less efficient. That is my assessment for now, at least. Though I doubt the final portion of the mission will ever change: You want the 7th Gargoyle to be the one at H-4 so the distance to the temple ruins is the shortest.


I initially went with Semi-Automatic aim in this mission but it got me into too much trouble: Bullets on Gargoyles would often not register and the damage output on the one Sahagin where I use bullets was too unpredictable. Changed Sight Support back to Manual and that's when I got the 02:58 IGT. It's also possible that glitches with the Semi-Automatic aim is a reason why my Thunder Lv3 shot would not always hit all 9 of the final Gargoyles in the temple ruins.

The game is really struggling with its framerate in so many of these missions because of the huge number of enemies, EM barriers and particle effects. I don't recall the story campaign being this riddled with instances where the game loses frames while rendering and de-rendering objects. Perhaps memory management is more optimized in the story mode chapters.

Cases when the game is busy rendering 3D objects, particle effects etc is where the latency of button inputs increase and you have to hold down a button extra long in order for the input to register. In order to get consistently good results you need to memorize where the game is more likely to eat up your button inputs. The fact that the game is struggling with its own workload *might* also explain why an auto-aim shot on a Gargoyle (using handgun bullets) will sometimes not register.

 

[cold_spirit]

 

[Shademp]

As a gamer who loves being overpowered, Thunder Lv3 + Manasoul is wonderful cheese. I do miss the magic balance from the original JP version where Blizzard was more powerful than Thunder though.



The only case where Blizzard might come in handy for speedrunning the Extra Missions is if I can use it in an "you're already dead" type of scenario: If your slow-moving Blizzard shot is guaranteed to one-hit-kill the enemy, you could just resume dashing towards the end goal of the stage and save time that way. This was a strategy I considered for the 7th Gargoyle in Lord of the Jungle. If I could shoot a Blizzard towards where I knew the Gargoyle was going to be then I could dash towards the EM barrier and already be extra close to the temple ruins by the time the Gargoyle spawned and got hit with the Blizzard shot. In the end this was not a good strategy both because Blizzard was too weak and I needed to ensure a high killchain by killing the hounds in the area as well.

Thunder Lv3 will almost always be the best choice, followed by Fire Lv3 for when enemies are further away and hidden around corners. At 2:39 in the Deep Labyrinth video I use Fire Lv3 to defeat all 4 Epiolnis enemies before they even run out of their hiding spots. Strategies like that are satisfying to figure out when I do my preparations on emulator.


While completing these missions I am typing my new records in an Excel sheet and letting it calculate my total best mission completion time. When I started out, this save file had a total completion time of 5 hours 22 minutes. Now it's down to 4 hours 52 minutes. Not counting Missilebreaker Melee, Missilebreaker Deathmatch and Vincent the Beast because they have a set mission time and internally their "time records" are always set to 0.

This save file does not include *all* my best times throughout the years and my total mission completion time is actually pretty bad because I played many missions safe in the past. Normally the old Dirge player I mention in these contexts is fiel2c, who still has some of the best mission completion times, but an unsung champion of the Extra Missions is DevilHunterXYZ. Almost four years ago he played through all the 46 missions in succession and absolutely smashed it with many of the challenges without actively trying to speedrun. By the time DevilHunterXYZ finished, his total mission completion time was 3 hours 45 minutes 3 seconds. Definitely looking forward to the day when I surpass that total best.

The fact that they got a final IGT of 09:38 on the Cait Versus the World mission is super impressive to me. DevilHunterXYZ does not employ the cheese tactic of standing on the pretty safe mid-level platform. My best record here is a 13:28 on the PAL version and I definitely used the platform tactic taught to me by fiel2c's video. Every time I do a full "out in the open" play in the Cait Versus the World mission I end up dying.

Cait Versus the World is the most frustrating and tedious mission in the entire game for me. Technically it's not "boring" because you spend so much time being scared and at a disadvantage, but at any moment bad enemy RNG can screw you over and cause a KO. But sooner or later I will have to tackle this mission again and I am obligated to beat DevilHunterXYZ's record. A record of 09:38 or slower will NOT suffice!

 

[Shademp]

On my first serious try I instantly got a 08:10 in Cait Versus the World. XD

A lot of time was still spent running around and grabbing healing moogle dolls so I could actually see a final time below 6 minutes happening. The mission is definitely more fun when you play Cait Sith in aggressive mode (and if you have lots of luck while doing so). COME AT ME BRUH! Another positive thing with the Cait Sith missions is that there is no equipment involved so I don't need to defeat Omega Weiss again just to change my starting equipment in the missions.

EDIT: And now on my second try I got a 06:24. This is insane. Getting that sub-06:00 will happen at some point.

EDIT #2: Got a 06:05 on my third try and only used one moogle doll for healing. How am I not constantly dying?!

 

[cold_spirit]

Another positive thing with the Cait Sith missions is that there is no equipment involved so I don't need to defeat Omega Weiss again just to change my starting equipment in the missions.

I was going to ask about this. That's a real pain... When practicing with an emulator, can you change weapons with McDirge to alleviate this issue?

It'd be interesting to decide the optimal three weapons to have for an all extra missions run.