Did AVALANCHE stop using materia or not???

[Masamune]

- If what you say is true, AVALANCHE would have had these principles during FFVII when mako was being siphoned left, right, and centre by Shinra. But they didn't.

- AVALANCHE did jack shit to Bahamut until Cloud got a leg-up and chopped him in-half. They could have held their own with some tasty magicks.

- Vincent chooses to use materia against DoC mooks (despite his skillz and superpoweredevilside) but again, none of AVALANCHE thought to use it against Bahamut? Riiight.

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5547#msg5547 date=1231025033]
How do you know it's going to cost someone their life when they've won all their battles with this symbolic choice thus far, AND have saved one of their comrade's life when they needed to? If they're strong enough to handle it, they've clearly thought of the consequences.[/quote]

Clearly thought about it? Horseshite, it's just mentioned off hand in one of the books. Uh, during AC they were getting their asses handed 99% of the time, and Cloud just barely managed to muster the strength to take down Loz and Yaz man in that tunnel.

They were not doing that good.

Furthermore they did have principles regarding materia in FFVII such as not allowing Shinra to nuke the huge materia to stop Meteor, because it'd be a waste of sacred planet energy that could be utilized in the fight against Sephiroth and then returned to the planet.

That has nothing to do with this current decision man.

And Cloud even says that he believes in not carrying too much materia and giving back the ones they don't use back to the planet.

Got nothing to do with them refusing to use it on some absurd principle they didn't have even when they were eco terrorists and their whole mantra was protection of the planet, and respecting it and all that bs.

You're looking and trying to scrutinize a non-existent inconsistency when it comes down to choice.

Not inconsistency, it's just bullshit.

Fighting involves choices, and if they know what they're doing and can handle it, then its their responsibility.

Yea, and they didn't know they could handle the trouble in AC, and carelessly left the materia hanging around in the church for any hobo to get his hands on. That's real responsible.

When the bogus premise of materia hurting the planet was shot down, you're trying to jump on something else that has absolutely no inconsistency when its just a matter of choice that's been proven to be effective.

Get off this inconsistency bullshit, I'm commenting on how nonsensical it is.

They didn't use materia against Bahamut Tremor. So what? They still kicked its ass and won.

No, Cloud did. Avalanche had little effect on it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They didn't have this particular principle because they needed materia more than they do post FFVII. You're acting like they've stopped using ALL materia under ANY circumstance. They've merely just cut back. They're stronger now and don't need to rely on it.

So what? As a team, they were able to give Cloud the time and boost needed to beat Bahamut. It was a team effort and they won. You have no real premise to criticize their choice in their fight that worked. They have the strength to back up their choice so what's the problem? You just don't like them not using materia.

And again, that's Vincent's personal choice. Not everyone in AVALANCHE thinks the same or views opportunities and fights thes same. Those "mooks" are SOLDIERs who outnumber him like mad and are on a mass genocide quest. He probably felt he could pull out all the stops and use magic as well. It's just how he is.

All your pointing out are the choices they made and why you don't like them. That's hardly proof of any inconsistency, especially when they back up their belief with their strength.

@Dacon

Then if its horseshite, how did they win? They weren't fully fighting as a team against Bhamaut and when they did none of them got injured in AC.

And barely muster the strength? He won, and broke both their weapons while not missing a beat.

And their prevous principles have everything to do with this one because it all stems from the theme of "respecting the planet." They respected the huge materia and its importance. If they truly didn't care like you're saying, then they wouldn't have bothered and just let Shinra do its way. They went OUT of their way to pick fights with Shinra just to save some shiny rocks.

And if you think its bullshit fair enough, but that's hardly any inconsistency (and I use the word "inconsistency" because thats where this discussion started from and was Masamune's point). You just don't like it. People probably think the same thing about Cloud not using the Buster Sword too.

And you're speaking as if you know what the characters think? How do you know they didn't know they could handle it all without materia? If they chose not to use it for AC...and DID handle their fights and win without it...what evidence are you basing the assertion that they didn't know? If anything, it proves they did.

You think its nonsensical, I think it makes perfect sense and is backed up by their bite matching their bark. Cloud wouldn't have beat Bahamut had it not been for his teammates.

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5550#msg5550 date=1231025869]
They didn't have this particular principle because they needed it. You're acting like they've stopped using ALL materia under ANY circumstance. They've merely just cut back. They're stronger now and don't need to rely on it.[/quote]

How are they stronger? They had plenty of problems keeping up with Bahamut, the only one who could be said as being just as strong without Materia is Cloud.

So what? As a team, they were able to give Cloud the time and boost needed to beat Bahamut. It was a team effort and they won. You have no real premise to criticize their choice in their fight that worked.

Choice? They were completely unprepared for the battle, they heard about trouble, and went to help. You make it sound like they made a conscious choice to run into battle without being prepared for the clusterfuck ahead.

They have the strength to back up their choice so what's the problem? You just don't like them not using materia.

Lol, Cloud may have the strength, but the rest of them not so much(maybe vincent).

And again, that's Vincent's personal choice. Not everyone in AVALANCHE thinks the same or views opportunities and fights thes same. Those "mooks" are SOLDIERs who outnumber him like mad and are on a mass genocide quest. He probably felt he could pull out all the stops and use magic as well. It's just how he is.

So, Noruma's statement just doesn't apply to Vincent? Hah.

All your pointing out are the choices they made and why you don't like them. That's hardly proof of any inconsistency, especially when they back up their belief with their strength.

No, choices that are stupid and irresponsible given the trouble they seem to face on a regular basis.

Then if its horseshite, how did they win? They weren't fully fighting as a team against Bhamaut and when they did none of them got injured in AC.

No, a few of them just almost got killed.

And barely muster the strength? He won, and broke both their weapons while not missing a beat.

He got smacked quite a few times by them, which would not have happened if he was at full strength.

And their prevous principles have everything to do with this one because it all stems from the theme of "respecting the planet." They respected the huge materia and its importance.

, then they wouldn't have bothered and just let Shinra do its way. They went OUT of their way to pick fights with Shinra just to save some shiny rocks.

They did not go into a huge fight with shinra over materia simply on principle, it was also about keeping shinra from getting their hands on another considerably powerful weapon and launching a freaking materia nuke over the planet that was guaranteed not to work.

If they truly didn't care like you're saying

No one said they didn't care.

And if you think its bullshit fair enough, but that's hardly any inconsistency. You just don't like it. People probably think the same thing about Cloud not using the Buster Sword too.

Get off this inconsistency bullshit, I'm commenting on how nonsensical it is.

And you're speaking as if you know what the characters think? How do you know they didn't know they could handle it all without materia?

And you're not? How would they know? You really think they're stupid enough to just assume they can take an unknown enemy that has successfully combatted Cloud and terrorized Midgar, without any prior preparation?

If they chose not to use it for AC...and DID handle their fights and win without it...what evidence are you basing the assertion that they didn't know? If anything, it proves they did.

So they just knew they could take this unknown enemy completely unprepared? That's stupid.

And "they" didn't win, Cloud did. He just got a little help from them in one fight, while Cloud defeated most of the antagonists alone and often outnumbered.

You think its nonsensical, I think it makes perfect sense and is backed up by their bite matching their bark.

So, it makes perfect sense to take on a powerful enemy unprepared, with no intelligence on who they were fighting? They got lucky up to the point Cloud's illness was healed.

Much of Avalanche almost died in the battle with Bahamut, and it's a fact Barret would be dead or gravely injured were it not for Cloud.

It's irresponsible.

Cloud wouldn't have beat Bahamut had it not been for his teammates.

Maybe, but only because they aided him in gaining some air when Bahamut went for the kill. They didn't do much as far as actual fighting goes. I also believe he could have won alone were he at full strength and unhindered by disease.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The creators state they're near superhuman and they show skills pretty beyond what they did in FFVII, what with fighting at their level without the aide of any materia.

They did have preparation. They clearly BROUGHT the materia with them aboard the Sierra and met before making it back to Edge. They knew there'd be some kind of fight before hand, hence them meeting up together and rushing in at the time they did. They didn't know it'd be Bahamut but they weren't surprised by the fact they had to fight.

And no...the statement still applies to Vince, because in AC he didn't use materia. But he has his own morals and ideas of when he wants to use materia apparently. Again, choice. They never swore off materia period.

What proof or reasoning are you using to say their choices are stupid and irresponsible? They didn't lose...they didn't get hurt...no one died...They won, and Cloud won against Sephiroth. Explain to me what makes their choice stupid when they've won, and use materia, just not as frequently.

...And who almost got killed? The only one close to being in a pinch was Barret and Cloud made a timely rescue and handled it. When they all got together everything was done and they won. The fact they held out and no one got killed or injured backs my statement up.

Cloud was at full strength and how do you know materia would've helped in the highway fight? You're assuming a hypothetical situation would be better, when the actual scenario that DID happen worked best, and Cloud won. Yeah, Cloud got beat up a bit, so what? It's a fight. It's not like he expected to not get hurt or encounter resistance. When it mattered, he won and made his way to Kadaj and dominated the fight.

What's different about what I'm saying regarding the characters, is that I have their actions and the creator's words to validate my point. Their actions make sense with that premise in mind and they've had no problem with it. They knew they were gonna fight, because they were prepared for it. They didn't swear off materia because they still have it and use it from time to time. They know their own strength in the fights they go in because they win.

I don't think you can pin the victory on just Cloud. It was a team effort because if they weren't there, Cloud wouldn't have been able to land the finishing blow or stop Bahamut from tearing Edge a new asshole. They gave Cloud the time needed to get there, and contrary to what you say, they did hurt Bahamut. He screams several times when Cid plunges his spear in the back of his neck or when Red bites him. When Bahamut's about to take a bite out of Denzel Barret shots him in the face enough to make Bahamut leave. Then he shoots Bahamut with a charged Big Shot that's so large it knocks the beast over and carves him into the concrete. Obviously he was hurt.

You keep saying they were unprepared but the Reunion Files state they met up and prepared aboard the Sierra and they even brought their materia and weapons. That's not actions indicative of them not being prepared. The materia was with them if they needed it.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

You know, to be fair, this whole thing wouldn't be an issue if Nomura wouldn't have said anything about it.

I understand why they don't use Materia within the narrative, but I don't like the way it was written. Given how Materia was presented to be a valuable tool of combat within the Compilation and the original FF7, it would have probably been less messy, and cooler from a narrative point of view for it to be written that 'In addition to Cloud and co being so much stronger in AC, their mastery of Materia have also increased exponentially as well' or something like that.

Imagine Cloud and co being able to wield Fire4-esque spells in the post FF7 narrative because they've gotten just that good. I think that would have been more interesting than what Nomura stated.

That doesn't say materia drains the life of the planet, that just explains that because Cloud and the others have vowed never to use mako again because it hurts the planet, they also decide they aren't going to use materia as well. The main reason I think they don't use materia is not because it "hurts" the planet, but out of symbolism and respect. It's never stated materia hurts the planet.

To be fair, doesn't the paragraph imply that Materia harms the planet? I read the paragraph as saying something like this; "Cloud and co certainly aren't drinking milk anymore, because they're lactose intolerant. That means, they don't eat cheese either."

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think materia is that needed in their fights when they've shown such unique individual skills already. They don't need it to rely on magic or fix combat around it. Their own limit breaks and skills are enough.

Do you know why the creators chose to do that? Because more than likely, they want to illustrate that exact point. Their strength. It's to demonstrate that the characters have gotten so strong they don't need to rely on materia for their fights so much anymore.

If you for some reason or another want MOAR MATERIA in your compilation of FFVII, fine. But calling their choice and strength to back up said choice stupid, when all that's been shown actually substantiates and validates said choice, then that's when I'll go tl;dr on your ass

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5557#msg5557 date=1231027634]
The creators state they're near superhuman and they show skills pretty beyond what they did in FFVII, what with fighting at their level without the aide of any materia[/quote]

Too bad they don't fight like that in the film itself.

They did have preparation. They clearly BROUGHT the materia with them aboard the Sierra and met before making it back to Edge.

No, Yuffie brought materia, AFTER fighting Bahamut if you follow the film itself without knowledge of whatever text released after the film.

They knew there'd be some kind of fight before hand, hence them meeting up together and rushing in at the time they did.

If they had met up before the battle, why show up separately and risk themselves as such? Barret clearly showed up alone, and almost payed for it.

I don't recall it being stated anywhere that they met up before the battle. Prove me wrong, but it's pretty obvious they were worried by Cloud not returning their calls, or Tifa/Marlene called for help.

They didn't know it'd be Bahamut but they weren't surprised by the fact they had to fight.

Knowing there's going to be a fight =/= being properly prepared for said fight.

And no...the statement still applies to Vince, because in AC he didn't use materia. But he has his own morals and ideas of when he wants to use materia apparently. Again, choice. They never swore off materia period.

Vincent clearly didn't use it because he didn't have any. The only person who probably did was Yuffie, because they apparently left the significant amount of it with Cloud.

I'm sorry, Saying you're not going to use Materia out of respect for the planet isn't swearing it off?

What proof or reasoning are you using to say their choices are stupid and irresponsible? They didn't lose...they didn't get hurt...no one died...They won, and Cloud won against Sephiroth. Explain to me what makes their choice stupid when they've won, and use materia, just not as frequently.

So, it's all ok since everything turned out fine?

Ok, it's cool for Timmy there to run with those scissors as long as he doesn't puncture his brain.

What kind of logic is that man?

...And who almost got killed? The only one close to being in a pinch was Barret and Cloud made a timely rescue and handled it.

Bahamut almost takes out Barret twice, Tifa could have easily gotten killed when it confronted her and shot that mega flare, Cid almost got squished on the side of a building while riding bahamut, and Yuffie almost got blasted by a mega flare.

They escaped each of those situations narrowly.

When they all got together everything was done and they won. The fact they held out and no one got killed or injured backs my statement up.

No, when Cloud showed up everything turned out ok. Just because a situation resolves itself in a satisfactory manner does not excuse the irresponsibility of the people involved in the situation in question.

Cloud was at full strength and how do you know materia would've helped in the highway fight? You're assuming a hypothetical situation would be better, when the actual scenario that DID happen worked best, and Cloud won.

I already said Cloud was capable of fighting well without materia, so wtf man.

Yeah, Cloud got beat up a bit, so what? It's a fight. It's not like he expected to not get hurt or encounter resistance. When it mattered, he won and made his way to Kadaj and dominated the fight.

It's still a fact that he's hindered by his illness in the battle. He completely dominated Kadaj and had no problem fighting a full powered Sephiroth on equal grounds once he was rejuvenated.

He clearly was being distressed by his sickness during his previous encounters.

What's different about what I'm saying regarding the characters, is that I have their actions and the creator's words to validate my point.

Tell me where the creators say it's ok for them to go into battle unprepared, and that it's ok because no one died in the end.

They knew they were gonna fight, because they were prepared for it.

No, they weren't. They clearly did not anticipate a confrontation with a high level summon monster and the revival of Sephiroth, so assumed they could win with their natural skills alone.

They didn't swear off materia because they still have it and use it from time to time. They know their own strength in the fights they go in because they win.

I'm sorry, but saying you won't use materia out of respect for the planet isn't swearing it off?

I don't think you can pin the victory on just Cloud. It was a team effort because if they weren't there, Cloud wouldn't have been able to land the finishing blow or stop Bahamut from tearing Edge a new asshole.

Yet Cloud was the only one to cause significant surface damage to the beast.

They gave Cloud the time needed to get there, and contrary to what you say, they did hurt Bahamut. He screams several times when Cid plunges his spear in the back of his neck or when Red bites him.

Do you yelp when an insect bites you? And I say again, Cloud was the only one to cause significant surface damage to the beast. Avalanche played their part, but not as important a part as Cloud's.

You keep saying they were unprepared but the Reunion Files state they met up and prepared aboard the Sierra and they even brought their materia and weapons. That's not actions indicative of them not being prepared. The materia was with them if they needed it.

So they just didn't use it when confronted with a life or death situation? Even more nonsensical. Also, what page does it say this on? I'll admit defeat on that one.

 

[Shademp]

Consider this: Yuffie didn't take the time to get the Materia.
The way it seems she and Cid were on the ship (potentially Vincent too, but Barret, Red XIII and Cait Sith seems to have been on the ground). When they saw Bahamut SIN attacking maybe the Materia was on the other side of the ship; Yuffie had to choose. Go off to battle immediately and distract Bahamut from hurting anyone, or take time to get the Materia and risk people being hurt in the meantime.
As for Barret and RedXIII, they haven't been in any serious battles since the Jenova War and so they don't carry around Materia. Yuffie probably collected it for herself.

That is one possibility. The statement that they don't use Materia needlessly could still apply in this scenario.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I don't think materia is that needed in their fights when they've shown such unique individual skills already. They don't need it to rely on magic or fix combat around it. Their own limit breaks and skills are enough.

Do you know why the creators chose to do that? Because more than likely, they want to illustrate that exact point. Their strength. It's to demonstrate that the characters have gotten so strong they don't need to rely on materia for their fights so much anymore.

Yeah but to me, from a narrative point of view that's pretty boring. I've seen, read, and played a LOT of fantasy and fictional narratives, and this is one of the only one's where its written that the characters are too powerful to use magic. In most narratives I read, the use of magic grows in power along with the wielder.

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Shademp link=topic=242.msg5575#msg5575 date=1231029391]

That is one possibility. The statement that they don't use Materia needlessly could still apply in this scenario.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but a situation where monsters are attacking a city, and civilians are wounded is not one where materia is not needed?

The whole ordeal could have easily been dealt with had they used the simplest of spells, haste, cure, and a few defense buffs would have been enough.

Yeah but to me, from a narrative point of view that's pretty boring. I've seen, read, and played a LOT of fantasy and fictional narratives, and this is one of the only one's where its written that the characters are too powerful to use magic. In most narratives I read, the use of magic grows in power along with the wielder.

I don't even buy that they were too powerful to use magic, Cloud maybe, but the rest of them cut too close to death for that to be applicable imo.

 

[Makoeyes987]

[quote author=Dacon link=topic=242.msg5569#msg5569 date=1231029066]Too bad they don't fight like that in the film itself. [/quote]

They so do, and you know it. How else are they fighting like they do and win without materia?

Don't make me have to go up against this point too!

No, Yuffie brought materia, AFTER fighting Bahamut if you follow the film itself without knowledge of whatever text released after the film.

She clearly had to have brought it with her for the entire stint in Edge because she doesn't go anywhere else but the Airship and the fight. It's onboard the Sierra. She didn't go back to Wutai or anywhere else.

If they had met up before the battle, why show up separately and risk themselves as such? Barret clearly showed up alone, and almost payed for it.

When did they show up separately? They all landed in Edge in roughly the same area; the Square with the Meteor Monument. They got their at the same time. No they all didn't land at the EXACT same moment but again...clearly the flim shows us it wasn't a problem since they were all there and no one got hurt.

I don't recall it being stated anywhere that they met up before the battle. Prove me wrong, but it's pretty obvious they were worried by Cloud not returning their calls, or Tifa/Marlene called for help.

How else would they have all conveniently landed in Edge from the Sierra and knew to come? They had to have all gotten aboard the ship, planned and then made a trip to Edge.

Knowing there's going to be a fight =/= being properly prepared for said fight.

...Yet they were prepared enough to win and had the materia with them just in case? That doesn't make sense.

Vincent clearly didn't use it because he didn't have any. The only person who probably did was Yuffie, because they apparently left the significant amount of it with Cloud.

If Vincent wanted materia, you don't think he could've told Yuffie to give him some from the huge collection she had aboard the airship? Yuffie's materia is everyone's materia. She wouldn't keep it away if they needed it to fight.

I'm sorry, Saying you're not going to use Materia out of respect for the planet isn't swearing it off?

Who says they stated they weren't going to use materia? They've just chosen not to use materia AS MUCH out of respect for the planet.

So, it's all ok since everything turned out fine?

Exactly, and not only was everything alright, it was successful.

Ok, it's cool for Timmy there to run with those scissors as long as he doesn't puncture his brain.

More like, it's okay for Timmy to run with those scissors if he needed to hurry and get those scissors to his mother who's pinned in a car and needed them to cut the seat belt before the care exploded.

That analogy is not the same thing as AC. Them using materia to fight is not a rule or common sense safety fact that when ignored can cost someone their life. It's a choice. It's more like choosing not to use a calculator for a standardized math test that allows calculators. Yeah, it's easier to use a calculator but if the fucker chooses not to and makes a perfect score on it, then who are you to chide him or say his choice was wrong? He did it right and his own way. It's fine so leave it alone.

Bahamut almost takes out Barret twice, Tifa could have easily gotten killed when it confronted her and shot that mega flare, Cid almost got squished on the side of a building while riding bahamut, and Yuffie almost got blasted by a mega flare.

Thus is the way a battle with a summoned beast works. You think they wouldn't have close calls if they had materia? Is that what you're saying, cause there's no proof of that either. There's no way to fight without risk and close calls. It just is. They won, and weren't worst for wear.

No, when Cloud showed up everything turned out ok. Just because a situation resolves itself in a satisfactory manner does not excuse the irresponsibility of the people involved in the situation in question.

The ideal situation would've been Cloud being there from the get go. What proof do you have mteria wouldn't have changed anything? You're placing way too much importance on magic. If Cloud would've been there at the start and not having to worry about that snot nose Denzel, then it'd have been easier.

It's still a fact that he's hindered by his illness in the battle. He completely dominated Kadaj and had no problem fighting a full powered Sephiroth on equal grounds once he was rejuvenated.

Okay, he's hindered by Geostigma, yet he still had the strength to beat Loz and Yazoo driving over 60 mph on a moving motorcycle on a highway while also steering and keeping pace.

He clearly was being distressed by his sickness during his previous encounters.

True, but once he resolves that inner shit and gets serious, he doesn't need the materia, and it's not stupid of him to not use it.

Tell me where the creators say it's ok for them to go into battle unprepared, and that it's ok because no one died in the end.

I don't think they were unprepared and I've stated why. If they got there in time, had materia as back up, and were able to kick ass each time, then you can't say the creators are saying any of that is okay.

No, they weren't. They clearly did not anticipate a confrontation with a high level summon monster and the revival of Sephiroth, so assumed they could win with their natural skills alone.

So? You can't be prepared for *every single* possible fucker you're gonna fight. They had no idea or way of knowing Kadaj would pick Bahamut Tremor. He's just one of many summons. What would be the point? What if they used materia but Kadaj used a Summon that absorbs magic or some element?

I'm sorry, but saying you won't use materia out of respect for the planet isn't swearing it off?

Never said they weren't gonna use it. Clearly they have, and were willing to as I've shown numerous times.

Yet Cloud was the only one to cause significant surface damage to the beast.

So by that logic, Sephiroth won the entire Wutai war because he was the one that caused the most significant damages to Wutai. It's a team effort. Just cause Cloud caused the most damage and killed it alone, doesn't mean they didn't help or weren't necessary in their actions. They were, and if they didn't fight with their skill shit would've been gotten worst and Cloud wouldn't have been in range to defeat it.

Do you yelp when an insect bites you? And I say again, Cloud was the only one to cause significant surface damage to the beast. Avalanche played their part, but not as important a part as Cloud's.

I'll yelp when it hurts

Point being is, you said they didn't hurt it or damage it, when they did. Cloud did the most damage but they all did damage to it and were fighting it. They weren't useless.

So they just didn't use it when confronted with a life or death situation? Even more nonsensical. Also, what page does it say this on? I'll admit defeat on that one.

It doesn't exactly say that, but the fact they all came to Edge together aboard the Sierra pretty much spells it out. Furthermore, Yuffie made the trip all the way from Wutai so she had to have contacted the rest of the group before hand so she could get onboard Cid's airship and join them. Same goes for Vincent. They all got together which connotates planning.

@Notorious M.O.G.

Yet, it was easily dealt with them NOT using the materia and ACC shows us even more of them kicking monster ass...WITHOUT materia use. You're not really making much of a case for materia making it easier for them or being better when they show absolutely no problem whatsoever defeating the Shadowcreepers.

 

[Masamune]

It's the Compilation's fault for being convoluted rubbish with creators that have spread themselves too thinly. They seem intent on these controversial tidbits of info that further complicate the story and plunge us into these sticky debates.

They didn't need to say diddly squat about materia. AVALANCHE could have just hop-tailed it so fast to save Edge that they never had time to pick any up. But now Makoeyes says they did have materia prepared, just never used it... even when Bahamut was kicking their collective asses.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Correctamundo, Masamune! The Compilation is pretty much tripping itself up.

Yet, it was easily dealt with them NOT using the materia and ACC shows us even more of them kicking monster ass...WITHOUT materia use. You're not really making much of a case for materia making it easier for them or being better when they show absolutely no problem whatsoever defeating the Shadowcreepers.

Yes, because it was written that way.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And you show the real reason you have a problem with it because you just don't like the Compilation

That's your own opinion that's objectively really no better than what the narrative has shown us, since the story:

A.) Doesn't show them struggling by not using materia.
B.) Doesn't show them swearing off materia completely.
C.) The creators show them using their own unique limit breaks that are beyond anything but the most advance magic.

If Bahamut was kicking their ass, where in the film is this shown? Who's injured? Who got beat? All you're showing are some close calls that are to be expected when fighting a summon (when their leader and strongest team member is preoccupied saving Denzel and making it to the fight), and are assuming that somehow, materia would make the fight easier when really...

You have absolutely no basis or proof that it would. How do you know magic would even BE effective against it, or if the magic they had and wasn't stolen by Kadaj was enough? You're working on an assumption that never happened.

@The Notorious M.O.G.

If it was written that way, then what the hell's the trip up? They made the explanation consistent within the story and movie.

I'll now put forth the assumption that Cloud would've been better off using the Buster Sword instead of the First Tsurugi because it's more consistent with FFVII and he had no problem or need to change swords anyways.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

If it was written that way, then what the hell's the trip up? They made the explanation consistent within the story and movie.

The point I was trying to make is it only makes sense because Nomura said it does and he decided to write it that way, not because it just fits so well within the world or the narrative. Keep in mind that FF7 is a fictional world that's written by some dudes in an office. What makes sense or what does not is at the whims of those people, and won't necessarily make the most sense just because they said it did. It's not infallible!

That said, like I said before, this is the only example where magical-esque fighting techniques in a fictional world I've personally seen, that don't grow in relation to physical prowess alongside the cast. In my personal, humble opinion, that's pretty boring.

 

[Max Payne]

Cloud is really the only one I'd call superhuman. The rest of them obvious are not normal people, but they don't fight like they're super powerful or something.


The creators and a lot of people would disagree with you with them jumping several stories, running up walls, performing their limit breaks, and going toe-to-toe with Bahamut when no one else can do so. Without their materia.

Well no shit she didn't go back to Wutai, but she didn't bring out the materia until after they got on the ship. She might have had it on board, but that's just as pointless.

They did not get there at the same time. They each showed up some time after the other showed up. There's also no indication that they all came in on the ship, they just show up, with the exception of Yuffie, and maybe Cid.

Again, no indication that they all came on the ship, they just show up with the exception of Yuffie and maybe Cid.

No, they were not prepared enough to win without Cloud, and leaving material behind on a ship is not having it "just in case" it's useless unless you have it on your person when you need it.

If they were going to use it, they would have use it to fight, there's no point in bringing it and leaving it behind. Also, that quote says they don't use it anymore, not that they'll use it when they think it's necessary.

That's idiot logic. Things turning out ok is not excuse for not being prepared for every eventuality.

No, it's not ok to endanger yourself, if you can prepare for it beforehand. It's never ok.

Yes it is, if you have something that can reinforce your chance of success when in a life or death situation you use it. You don't stand on some absurd principle that is ultimately useless when your life is on the line.

No it's not, your life is not in danger during a math test.

No, I'm saying it's stupid to take the risk at all. With materia as powerful as they had at the end of 7, it's nonsensical to use it when it can pretty much raise your chances of surviving exponentially.

I assume you're asking would've, not wouldn't, and it's the fact that materia grants you extraordinary abilities in combat, that raise your chance quite a bit.

Maybe so, but the same applies to the fact that it would have been easier for them to manage by utilizing all of the powers and resources they gained on their journey.

Yeah, but if he wasn't so fucked up he more than likely wouldn't have had as much trouble to begin with.

Cloud for one thing, did not have it nor did he have the chance to get it, and it's not just his "inner shit" holding him back. He was pushing himself as hard as he could for the sake of his people.

Bringing materia "just in case" and leaving it on the ship during the fight is beyond retarded, and they were hardly "kicking ass" against Bahamut.

Holy shit, I hit the "edit" button instead of "quote" button and thus edited your reply, my bad. Sorry to have tweaked and quoted in your own post!- Makoeyes987

 

[Masamune]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5594#msg5594 date=1231031378]
And you show the real reason you have a problem with it because you just don't like the Compilation
[/quote]

No more than saying you defend it blindly.

Dacon already mentioned Bahamut was giving them the run around, and Barret, Cid, and Yuffie all had to be saved at the last minute. And none of them did any noticeable damage to the creature.

You have absolutely no basis or proof that it would. How do you know magic would even BE effective against it?

Do you have any proof it wouldn't?

 

[Masamune]

Materia buffs the user and bestow them incredible power. If AVALANCHE saw fit to bring these materia in the first place, why would they suddenly be deemed useless? And why would Yuffie be trying to shove them down Cloud's trousers later on??

 

[Max Payne]

So, you're saying magic would be effective against Sephiroth at his strongest but not Bahamut?

Even more nonsensical.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud is really the only one I'd call superhuman. The rest of them obvious are not normal people, but they don't fight like they're super powerful or something.

The creators and a lot of people would disagree with you with them jumping several stories, running up walls, performing their limit breaks, and going toe-to-toe with Bahamut when no one else can do so. Without their materia.

Well no shit she didn't go back to Wutai, but she didn't bring out the materia until after they got on the ship. She might have had it on board, but that's just as pointless.

Pointless to you who has a hard on for materia use

But seriously, it's not important if you go by the premise they decided they could handle it without it, and they did. It was aboard the Sierra...which she was on before she parachuted down into Edge. They had it in case they needed it but decided they weren't.

They did not get there at the same time. They each showed up some time after the other showed up. There's also no indication that they all came in on the ship, they just show up, with the exception of Yuffie, and maybe Cid.

What was the gap between each appearance? 1 minute? Seriously, you're nitpicking. They all arrived at Edge at 2:00pm as per the timeline of AC in the Reunion Files. You think it was a coincidence they all made it to the battle at that time? That's preparation.

Again, no indication that they all came on the ship, they just show up with the exception of Yuffie and maybe Cid.

The only ones who didn't come by the ship was Vincent, Cloud, and Tifa, dude. And even then, they still got the memo that they were all meeting in Edge to fight Kadaj.

No, they were not prepared enough to win without Cloud, and leaving material behind on a ship is not having it "just in case" it's useless unless you have it on your person when you need it.

Why would they need to be prepared to fight and win without Cloud when Cloud was gonna be there? The entire battle was assumed that Cloud would BE there. They're a team.

If they were going to use it, they would have use it to fight, there's no point in bringing it and leaving it behind. Also, that quote says they don't use it anymore, not that they'll use it when they think it's necessary.

As an arbitrary example, they may have thought that if the summon or enemy was stronger (like maybe KotR or fuck it...Choco/Mog) they would've felt it necessary to use materia. Do you know how many unnecessary hypotheticals and what if's you're bringing up? They chose not to because they could handle it and they did.

That's idiot logic. Things turning out ok is not excuse for not being prepared for every eventuality.

Show me where, conclusively they weren't prepared.

No, it's not ok to endanger yourself, if you can prepare for it beforehand. It's never ok.

Then they shouldn't fight.

Yes it is, if you have something that can reinforce your chance of success when in a life or death situation you use it. You don't stand on some absurd principle that is ultimately useless when your life is on the line.

Stop undercutting their experience as if they're weak, they know damn well what they can do. You're acting as if they haven't already saved the world once and took down WEAPONs. A summon is probably the least of their concern.

No it's not, your life is not in danger during a math test.

To them, they obviously weren't that worried. They were joking around and happy to be fighting together again. They didn't think the apocalypse was nigh, like...in DC.

No, I'm saying it's stupid to take the risk at all. With materia as powerful as they had at the end of 7, it's nonsensical to use it when it can pretty much raise your chances of surviving exponentially.

You need to show me where they thought it was a risk, because you're speaking from your own perspective as it being a risk. How do you know they felt the same?

I assume you're asking would've, not wouldn't, and it's the fact that materia grants you extraordinary abilities in combat, that raise your chance quite a bit.

Yeah it does, but if you don't need it, you don't need it. It's about choice and experience and clearly they've got experience. You're acting like this is their first fight against monsters.

Maybe so, but the same applies to the fact that it would have been easier for them to manage by utilizing all of the powers and resources they gained on their journey.

From your perspective, but what makes you think they now are purposefully handicapping themselves to make the battle harder and thus fail?

Did they want to win and defend Edge? Yes. Did they want to stop Bahamut? Yes. Did they do so? Yes. Did they get hurt? No. They utilized what they felt at the time was best, and won. Stop adding all these damn hypotheticals to a fight that already happened.

Yeah, but if he wasn't so fucked up he more than likely wouldn't have had as much trouble to begin with.

What trouble could've been alieviated if he used materia? Since you want to play the "what if" game, what if Cloud didn't want to use materia because he didn't want to bother with having to concentrate and expend the magical energy needed to cast spells? What if he just feels more comfortable with using his own sword skills and spirit energy for limit breaks that come naturally?

You're playing a dangerous, convoluted game now introducing all these "what ifs."

Cloud for one thing, did not have it nor did he have the chance to get it, and it's not just his "inner shit" holding him back. He was pushing himself as hard as he could for the sake of his people.

The Sierra could've swooped down and tossed him the materia while they watched him fight Kadaj. Instead they chose to back off and let him handle his business.

And who was he pushing himself hard against after gaining his resolve? Sephiroth, and that's it. No one else got him that worked up after he got cured and mentally focused.

Bringing materia "just in case" and leaving it on the ship during the fight is beyond retarded, and they were hardly "kicking ass" against Bahamut.

Do I need to quote the script or RF to show that they didn't have trouble? There was only two spots they did. When Barret & Red XIII got backed up by Yuffie, and when Cloud saved Barret. That's all.

@Notorious M.O.G.

It makes sense because Nomura said so, AND it matches with the narrative.

Nomura never said they swore off materia completely. The Compilation doesn't show the heroes searing off materia completely post FFVII.

What doesn't fit? Stop bringing up your (and I don't mean you specifically FYI) preference in seeing more magic as some inconsistency, lack of judgment, or bad decision they made in AC when nothing at all within the movie, script, or RF shows them struggling in their fights because of the specific reason of not using materia.

It's not there.

@Masamune

But you're arbitrarily stating as if you're the authority on FFVII's world and mechanics that somehow the way they fought in AC was inferior due to no materia use. You can't prove that, and you're basing that on the fact you've got an axe to grind with AC's portrayal of fighting. I'm basing my position on the already established outcome of said fight and its consistency of what they've said and done.

Bahamut gave only Barret and Red XIII the run around. I don't know what you're seeing from the movie but that's not what's conveyed to me or in the script or break down of the fight.

And you say materia buffs the user. Okay. Wanna take a stab or mention the draw backs? The casting time, the concentration needed for it to work, or the stamina to keep spamming enough spells to win?

If you want to play "what they can do to win better" I'll be glad to also quote the flipside of it. You touting materia as the answer to beating Bahamut and Sephiroth easier in AC is not foolproof. Especially when *their* way, was shown to win without any casualties or injuries.

@Dacon

Who's saying magic would be effective against Sephiroth?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It makes sense because Nomura said so, AND it matches with the narrative.

Nomura never said they swore off materia completely. The Compilation doesn't show the heroes searing off materia completely post FFVII.

It doesn't really match the narrative in my opinion. It doesn't WILDLY CONTRADICT it, but it doesn't really flow smoothly either. It just does because Nomura said it does. Hell, even taking into account the original game, you can become so powerful that you don't need materia, but it would still be silly not to use it. Why give yourself the handicap?

I understand and respect what you're saying, but you're giving Nomura and the Compilation too much credit, Mako. While yeah, nothing is wildly wrong here, you can't blindly defend everything either Square, Nomura, or the Compilation does. Don't take this the wrong way, but hey, you seem to do it a lot.

What doesn't fit? Stop bringing up your (and I don't mean you specifically FYI) preference in seeing more magic as some inconsistency, lack of judgment, or bad decision they made in AC when nothing at all within the movie, script, or RF shows them struggling in their fights because of the specific reason of not using materia.

It's not there.

To be fair, I never said it didn't fit or that they needed it, I'm just saying compared to other fictional worlds, it's pretty boring (in my humble little ol' opinion.)

 

[Makoeyes987]

Looks like you're the next one I have to quote now


[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=242.msg5613#msg5613 date=1231033922]
It doesn't really match the narrative in my opinion. It doesn't WILDLY CONTRADICT it, but it doesn't really flow smoothly either. It just does because Nomura said it does. Hell, even taking into account the original game, you can become so powerful that you don't need materia, but it would still be silly not to use it. Why give yourself the handicap?[/quote]

How does it not flow? For this issue not to flow even a bit, there needs to be an inconsistency regarding them making the conscious choice of not using materia and thus struggling and losing because of it.

That doesn't happen in AC. You're completely ignoring the fact that there is no handicap. It's a choice. Just like some warriors may choose to be mages to fight, while others choose to be warriors.

All choices have pros and cons. The pro of using materia are them getting the added abilities and magic. The con is the stamina it requires, the concentration to cast, and the need to use special weaponry that has the slots for said materia.

The pro of not using materia is the freedom to focus all of their stamnia and energy on their physical power and spirit energy for limit breaks. The con is the lack of special abilties, BUT that con is eliminated due to their sheer power and experience they have now post FFVII. They don't NEED command materia because the commands they can do now are just as good. They don't need Float spells or buffs because their good enough on their own and can run on walls and jump extremely high.

They don't need haste because they're fast and nimble already.

I understand and respect what you're saying, but you're giving Nomura and the Compilation too much credit, Mako. While yeah, nothing is wildly wrong here, you can't blindly defend everything either Square, Nomura, or the Compilation does. Don't take this the wrong way, but hey, you seem to do it a lot.

No I'm not, you're just looking for a problem where none exists. You're fixating on materia as if it has no draw backs at all when the Compilation HAS shown there's a reason why you don't use too much materia or abstain from it. Look at BC and what happens to the SHM when they use too much materia at once.

And don't take this the wrong way but you're wrong.

I'll defend what I want and call out what I don't like. This isn't something that's a problem that needs calling out. Come back to me when you've played DC Lost Episode or have played the Japanese version of DC.

To be fair, I never said it didn't fit or that they needed it, I'm just saying compared to other fictional worlds, it's pretty boring (in my humble little ol' opinion.)

And I'm not arguing that, I'm just talking about people are saying materia would've made the fighte easier and would've been the smarter choice, when they're only looking at

A.) It from their own perspective and opinion and not factoring in the actual choice of the characters and their experience in fighting.

B.) The draw backs of materia usage in general. It isn't perfect.

C.) The fact the characters have their own unique Limit skills they use through channeling their spirit energy and physical power. That's fantasy and magical right there.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

How does it not flow? For this issue not to flow even a bit, there needs to be an inconsistency regarding them making the conscious choice of not using materia and thus struggling and losing because of it.

That doesn't happen in AC. You're completely ignoring the fact that there is no handicap. It's a choice. Just like some warriors may choose to be mages to fight, while others choose to be warriors.

All choices have pros and cons. The pro of using materia are them getting the added abilities and magic. The con is the stamina it requires, the concentration to cast, and the need to use special weaponry that has the slots for said materia.

The pro of not using materia is the freedom to focus all of their stamnia and energy on their physical power and spirit energy for limit breaks. The con is the lack of special abilties, BUT that con is eliminated due to their sheer power and experience they have now post FFVII. They don't NEED command materia because the commands they can do now are just as good. They don't need Float spells or buffs because their good enough on their own and can run on walls and jump extremely high.

They don't need haste because they're fast and nimble already.

I guess. Personally, I think AC made the FF7 combat universe pretty stupid, but hey, it is what it is.

No I'm not, you're just looking for a problem where none exists. You're fixating on materia as if it has no draw backs at all when the Compilation HAS shown there's a reason why you don't use too much materia or abstain from it. Look at BC and what happens to the SHM when they use too much materia at once.

And don't take this the wrong way but you're wrong.

I'll defend what I want and call out what I don't like. This isn't something that's a problem that needs calling out. Come back to me when you've played DC Lost Episode or have played the Japanese version of DC.

I understand that in this particular situation, but come on (and I know this is subjective), but to be fair you DO give the impression that sometimes the Compilation can do no wrong, Nomura sometimes doesn't write himself into a hole, and Square is infallible. While it may be true you do have to understand that you give that impression to some (or many) people.

Especially sometimes to someone like me, who heavily criticizes Square, Nomura, and the Compilation, because while I enjoy it, I see a LOT wrong with every corner of it and I feel that criticism is the sincerest form of flattery.

And I'm not arguing that, I'm just talking about people are saying materia would've made the fighte easier and would've been the smarter choice, when they're only looking at

A.) It from their own perspective and opinion and not factoring in the actual choice of the characters and their experience in fighting.

B.) The draw backs of materia usage in general. It isn't perfect.

C.) The fact the characters have their own unique Limit skills they use through channeling their spirit energy and physical power. That's fantasy and magical right there.

Be that as it may, but that's only because it was written that way. What if alternatively (in an alternate timeline/hypothetically), AC and Nomura's statements made it so the cast have a higher mastery of Materia to learn new spells, a Haste spell that could make them move twice as fast (maybe Tifa could have matched Loz, who knows), or a Protect spell that could have let them eat Bahamuts claws head on.

It's all in how it was written. Nomura could have easily went the other creative direction and made it so Materia would have increased in power exponentually based on who used it.

Or whatever, the possibilities were endless.

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5612#msg5612 date=1231033463]
The creators and a lot of people would disagree with you with them jumping several stories, running up walls, performing their limit breaks, and going toe-to-toe with Bahamut when no one else can do so. Without their materia.

I already addressed the fact that they're beyond human, but said they're not super powerful, nor as powerful as Cloud.

Pointless to you who has a hard on for materia use

That makes no sense. It's pointless as in, why have it if you don't use it?

But seriously, it's not important if you go by the premise they decided they could handle it without it, and they did. It was aboard the Sierra...which she was on before she parachuted down into Edge. They had it in case they needed it but decided they weren't.

They did not handle it that well is the point, and they almost bit it several times, no they did not have it in case they needed it, because they did not have it on them during the fight.

What was the gap between each appearance? 1 minute? Seriously, you're nitpicking.

So, stating things as they happen is nitpicking now? Lol.

You think it was a coincidence they all made it to the battle at that time? That's preparation.

Showing up within a certain time period does not equal being prepared for a fight. You can come in a group and still be unprepared.

The only ones who didn't come by the ship was Vincent, Cloud, and Tifa, dude. And even then, they still got the memo that they were all meeting in Edge to fight Kadaj.

Sorry, but when did Barret get off the ship, or even give the implication that he did?

Why would they need to be prepared to fight and win without Cloud when Cloud was gonna be there? The entire battle was assumed that Cloud would BE there. They're a team.

Because he WASN'T there. You're supposed to be prepared for whatever that can happen in a battle of such a magnitude.

As an arbitrary example, they may have thought that if the summon or enemy was stronger (like maybe KotR or fuck it...Choco/Mog) they would've felt it necessary to use materia. Do you know how many unnecessary hypotheticals and what if's you're bringing up? They chose not to because they could handle it and they did.

They had no idea they could handle Bahamut and the Silver Haired Men. They just made the assumption they could, they didn't just KNOW they could win, they're not that stupid. Only fools assume they can beat an enemy they no nothing about.

Show me where, conclusively they weren't prepared.

The fact they had as much trouble as they did without Cloud's help, and the fact they did not bring every resource you have in a life or death confrontation.

No, it's not ok to endanger yourself, if you can prepare for it beforehand. It's never ok.

Then they shouldn't fight.

That obviously doesn't even factor into the situation, the point is you don't purposefully limit yourself in a battle where your life is on the line.

Stop undercutting their experience as if they're weak, they know damn well what they can do.

Not undercutting their experience, I'm reinforcing the fact their experience is enough for them to know that you use everything you've got in a battle. Not purposefully handicap yourself in favor of some arbitrary princple or misconceived arrogance.

"OHHH WE SAVED THA WURLD, NOTHING CAN STOP US NOW"

You're acting as if they haven't already saved the world once and took down WEAPONs. A summon is probably the least of their concern.

The fact that they saved the world and been through countless battles is precise why it's idiotic for them to limit themselves as such, during all those confrontations they fought with all they had, including materia. A summon disfigured by the power of the SHM is hardly some trifle, because they had to have done something to the materia to create a summon previously unheard of.

To them, they obviously weren't that worried. They were joking around and happy to be fighting together again. They didn't think the apocalypse was nigh, like...in DC.

So, it's ok to be careless in a fight against an unknown summon monster?

You need to show me where they thought it was a risk, because you're speaking from your own perspective as it being a risk. How do you know they felt the same?

How they felt? HOW THEY FELT? Any battle against a force that can conceivably threaten an entire city is a threat, and fighting it is a risk. They've been through too many fights to suddenly be so arrogant when it comes to fighting powerful foes.

Yeah it does, but if you don't need it, you don't need it. It's about choice and experience and clearly they've got experience. You're acting like this is their first fight against monsters.

They clearly needed it, and I've been through explaining how their experience should have told them to fight with everything they've got.

From your perspective, but what makes you think they now are purposefully handicapping themselves to make the battle harder and thus fail?

No, but leaving it behind is handicapping themselves in the arrogance that they just magically knew they would win no matter the odds.

Did they want to win and defend Edge? Yes. Did they want to stop Bahamut? Yes. Did they do so? Yes. Did they get hurt? No. They utilized what they felt at the time was best, and won. Stop adding all these damn hypotheticals to a fight that already happened.

Hypotheticals? They took a risk and managed to survive, that's not a fucking hypothetical.

What trouble could've been alieviated if he used materia? Since you want to play the "what if" game, what if Cloud didn't want to use materia because he didn't want to bother with having to concentrate and expend the magical energy needed to cast spells? What if he just feels more comfortable with using his own sword skills and spirit energy for limit breaks that come naturally?

Cloud didn't even have the chance to get materia, and we were talking about Avalanche in it's entirety, and my argument was that if Cloud hadn't been weakened he could have had much less trouble with his enemies.
You're playing a dangerous, convoluted game now introducing all these "what ifs."

The Sierra could've swooped down and tossed him the materia while they watched him fight Kadaj. Instead they chose to back off and let him handle his business.

Well, that's hardly his fault then is it?

And who was he pushing himself hard against after gaining his resolve? Sephiroth, and that's it. No one else got him that worked up after he got cured and mentally focused.

Oh, I'm sorry, fighting against superhuman freaks while your body is failing isn't pushing yourself, I didn't know.

Do I need to quote the script or RF to show that they didn't have trouble? There was only two spots they did. When Barret & Red XIII got backed up by Yuffie, and when Cloud saved Barret. That's all.

I don't need a script to tell me what I've seen with my own eyes, the battle was no picnic for them, if it was they would have defeated the thing without Cloud.

Nomura never said they swore off materia completely. The Compilation doesn't show the heroes searing off materia completely post FFVII.

Except the quote from RF implies they did swear if off, not that they pick and choose when to use it.

What doesn't fit? Stop bringing up your (and I don't mean you specifically FYI) preference in seeing more magic as some inconsistency, lack of judgment, or bad decision they made in AC when nothing at all within the movie, script, or RF shows them struggling in their fights because of the specific reason of not using materia.

You'll have to excuse us nonsensical people for believing what we see rather than what's in a book made after the film.

And you say materia buffs the user. Okay. Wanna take a stab or mention the draw backs? The casting time, the concentration needed for it to work, or the stamina to keep spamming enough spells to win?

Obviously they couldn't have casted the spells before they jumped in to fight, that's just not a possibility right?

Who's saying magic would be effective against Sephiroth?

Magic worked on him at the moment of truth in the Northern Cavern, there's no reason to assume it wouldn't now.